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Old September 18, 2016, 02:30 PM   #1
DC Plumber
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To moon clip or not?

On another post I mentioned that I bought a 25-2 45acp revolver. I shot about 100 rounds today. Very accurate. Wow. Clearly my favorite shooting revolver.

I had purchased moon clips, both polymer and steel. The polymer ones work great. Easy to load and unload, HOWEVER, my semi wad cutter bullets don't exactly jump on their own into the cylinder. I have experienced this with my 586 using speed loaders, so I wasn't alarmed.

My question is this, since the cartridge head spaces on the case mouth, is there ANY harm just loading them without clips? I shot 50 rounds using this method and used a wooden dowel to push them out. Obviously at the low pressure of lswc ammo, there isn't any fear of sticky extraction. I didn't have any misfires either. So for slow speed target shooting and just plinking, using lead bullets, could there be any risk by doing this.

Thank you in advance for your input.
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Old September 18, 2016, 02:56 PM   #2
entropy
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In that gun, no there's no danger. Some .45 ACP revolver cylinders were made without the chamber mouth, just bored through for easier machining. Those need moon clips. If you don't mind poking the empties out manually out of your 25-2, go ahead.
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Old September 18, 2016, 03:36 PM   #3
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I use Wilson moon clips for my 325PD. The thought of auto rim was momentary since I already have so much .45 ACP. So many easy to use moon clip devices on the market. I use mine and load up a cigar box full.
Dowels are ok for target, but still a PITA. Of course they would be out for a defense situation.
I think the steel moon clips are a bit easier for a reload, especially with SWC. Practice too.
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Old September 19, 2016, 01:04 PM   #4
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I use my "tactical fingernail" to pick them out by the rim holding my 625 up right so whichever ones don't just fall out by themselves fall out.

I usually have most my ammo pre loaded into moon clips though.
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Old September 19, 2016, 01:26 PM   #5
Merle1
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In my M625 only about 50% of the rounds would fire. When I miked the cases, I found that many were shorter than "trim to" specs for reloading.
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Old September 19, 2016, 01:33 PM   #6
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I've fired my Mod. 625 without moon clips. They work fine, but you have to poke out the empties one at a time....at least the ones that don't fall out. If you're using handloads, I've found that sufficient taper crimping is needed to prevent the case mouth from interfering with smooth reloading.

Here's a tip for faster loading I learned from watching Jerry Miculek: Since the cartridges wiggle around in the clip, if you hold the gun with the barrel pointing straight down at the ground & hold the moon clip the same way, & line up two rounds with two chambers, the clip will usually drop right in.
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Old September 19, 2016, 02:38 PM   #7
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Another option for moon clips IF you reload is to just pick up some 45AR cases from starline and load them for your Mod 25. I used to shoot a 1917 S&W with moon clips and found them to be a PITA. Much easier to shoot with 45AR ammo or cases, as those are rimmed by design.

Otherwise, stick with 45ACP and moon clips and learn to live with it.
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Old September 19, 2016, 06:28 PM   #8
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Over the years I have learned to "throw" the moon clip in, the more you try and guide it in the more likely it is to catch on something or otherwise hang up. Gravity always seems to allow things to fall down though.
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Old September 19, 2016, 08:12 PM   #9
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Hey guys, thanks for all of the comments. If I was concerned about speed I'd used round nosed bullets so I'm not against using my finger nail or a dowel. I've thought about auto rim brass but I really like the fact that I load one round and it works in my 1911 and my revolver. Using a dowel or my finger is probably the same speed as loading and unloading moon clips. Probably. I was worried about head spacing and the possibility of brass getting stuck but the Ruger Super Blackhawk revolvers work just fine without brass sticking. So I'll experiment and see what is most convenient and least hassle. Once I get this thing dialed in on paper at 50' for this seasons indoor league I'll post a pic. Thanks again
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Old September 19, 2016, 08:36 PM   #10
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I don't know who Clip is but he won't appreciate being mooned...

Now, on a more serious note, I had a 40sw revolver which was designed to be used with or without moon clips. Taurus 405 to be exact. It was a dandy shooter but was a pain in the rear to get consistent and reliable extraction. I think your best bet is to either use 45acp with moonclips or to use 45ar as posted above. Yes it will absolutely work without moon clips using 45acp, but once you get a case stuck under the extractor star your in for a fight to get it out.
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Old September 19, 2016, 09:15 PM   #11
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I usually only put about 1/3 of my 45acp on clips when I head to the range, another 1/3 in 1911 magazines, and the other 1/3 gets loaded into whatever I'm feeling that particular day.
No issues with headspacing in my 625, and flicking the stubborn few out of the cylinder dosent really bother me. I try not to rush myself anyways as I don't find it conducive to shooting the tiny groups that my 625 and 1911 are capable of.
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Old September 20, 2016, 07:37 PM   #12
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I've had a number of revolvers chambered in rimless calibers requiring moonclips for extraction. Some headspaced on the case mouths so you could use the "poke with a pencil" method of extraction, others did not making moonclips a necessity. Currently I have a custom S&W M28 that has been converted to .45ACP using a M25 cylinder and barrel and a custom S&W M360J convertible that has had the original steel cylinder rechambered to 9x23 and a new titanium .38spl cylinder fitted to it. In all cases I found it most convenient to purchase a bunch of moonclips so that I could have them preloaded before going to the range, qualifying, training, whatever. For instance, our qualifying course of fire was 50rds, fired twice, 100rds total. I would load up 30 or more moonclips ahead of time and not have to mess with them when it came time to shoot. Sometime after my range trip I would unload them all, having a tool makes short work of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WestKentucky View Post
I had a 40sw revolver which was designed to be used with or without moon clips. Taurus 405 to be exact. It was a dandy shooter but was a pain in the rear to get consistent and reliable extraction. I think your best bet is to either use 45acp with moonclips or to use 45ar as posted above. Yes it will absolutely work without moon clips using 45acp, but once you get a case stuck under the extractor star your in for a fight to get it out.
It can be a pain to get some cases out without a moonclip, I've had to give the pencil a couple of good whacks to pop them out before.

Don't know how you're going to get a .45ACP case stuck under the extractor star, since it doesn't have a rim there's nothing to get stuck underneath there.
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Old September 20, 2016, 09:21 PM   #13
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These guys are the place to get moon clips.

http://www.ranchproducts.com

I haven't bought any in awhile but the last 100 clips were $20.
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Old September 20, 2016, 09:53 PM   #14
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You'll never be a challenge to Jerry Miculek picking those cases out one at a time and reloading the cylinder the same way.

He'll be through 100 rounds and cooling off in the clubhouse before you have 18 rounds downrange.

Oh well, that's okay. The only way I'll be a challenge to JM is when he is cooling off permanently. And he'll likely outlive me, so forget about that.

I had a 25-2 once upon a time. Nice revolver. But my solution to the moon clip issue was a 25-4 (.45LC).

Conventional speed loaders, no moon clips necessary. Yep, had to buy another set of dies, and different brass...
But the .45LC round is versatile, fun and worth the effort (IMHO).
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Old September 20, 2016, 10:08 PM   #15
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I keep separate brass for the clip gun. No auto ejector dings or burrs to bind rotation.
The time taken to clip up the ammo is paid back when you pick it up six at a time.
And you aren't covered by a "lost brass match" announcement, either.

There are clip flattening tools, but if I bend one I just trash it.
Clips for other calibers are much more expensive and you have to maintain them.
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Old September 21, 2016, 12:43 AM   #16
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I have a 625, 986 and a moon clip 442. To me, it is worth using moon clips over deaing with individual loading of the cylcinders. (the 442 is a 38 Special so it really not big deal to single load).

S&W seems to be inconsistent on whether a revolver chambered for an auto cartridge will headspace in the chamber or not with out a clip. So, i avoid the problem and use clips in those revolvers exclusively.

Have a good moon/de-mooning tool makes the job of using clips less objectionable.

It is not difficult to make your own tools. Many vendors offer tools that load/unload one case at a time. They work fine.

BMT makes moon/de-moon tools that load the entire clip at one operation. Easy peasy to load the clip. These are my favorites but the price will be an objection to many folks. The single load tools are more attractively priced.

My experience with the 442 Pro that are machined for moon clips from the factory I'm planning to send off my M437 and M642 cylinders to be modified.

With moon/demooning tools, using moon clips is not an issue except for a little extra time involved loading/unloading the clips. I keep several clips loaded for each revolver so that i can quickly get into action for practice or other needs.
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Old September 21, 2016, 10:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
I keep separate brass for the clip gun.
These days I do too, 45 gap brass is just about perfect for the moon clipped revolver. Shorter cases go into and out of the cylinder easier, the SPP is more reliable than large as you lesson spring tension and you don't need any tools to moon/demoon.
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Old September 21, 2016, 03:36 PM   #18
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Wait a minute. You mean to say that there is actually a good use for GAP brass? Dang I never though of that. There goes the price of GAP brass.
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Old September 21, 2016, 06:50 PM   #19
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Yep, 1:25 into this video, for gap brass mooning/demooning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-ZrSfHrfd0

It only got me 1st ESR master at IDPA nationals though. I beat the other JM on a few stages but he won by a good margin after you total all 18 of them.

I haven't ever shot with a nicer professional shooter though.
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Old September 21, 2016, 09:08 PM   #20
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Congratulations.

But I do not understand why 8.2.5.3.2 allows GAP in ACP (and even LC.)
Specials in Magnum guns makes sense, considering power factoring, but GAP in ACP is specifically listed by SAAMI as an "Unsafe Firearm - Ammunition Combination." The hazard may not be apparent to we Mere Shooters but if something went wrong, the liability lawyers would be on the loose.
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Old September 22, 2016, 08:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
but GAP in ACP is specifically listed by SAAMI as an "Unsafe Firearm - Ammunition Combination."
Would SAMMI say it's safe to fire 40 S&W out of a 10mm? No but It is if you use moon clips with a S&W 610. Once you are running moon clips is no different than 38 in a 357 or 44spl in a 44 mag.
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Old September 22, 2016, 10:30 AM   #22
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They do not list .40 in 10mm as an unsafe combination.

I was talking about official statements and perceived liability, not what can be made to work.
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Old September 22, 2016, 11:54 AM   #23
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You are correct they don't even mention the 10mm.

I would have liked to have seen the situation where they felt they needed to write that it is unsafe to fire 40 S&W from a 9mm. Must have been a pretty big hammer.

That also list the 45 win mag as unsafe in a 45 gap pistol but looks like it's OK in 45 automatic....

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...mbinations.pdf

I wouldn't do it if I were relying on head spacing off the mouth or with factory 45 GAP ammunition for that matter though.
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Last edited by jmorris; September 22, 2016 at 12:00 PM.
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Old September 22, 2016, 12:00 PM   #24
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Looks to me like it is saying not to shoot 9mm cartridges in a .40 gun, etc.
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Old September 22, 2016, 12:03 PM   #25
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That's on page 4, must be safe from a 10mm though...

on page 3 it says to not shoot 40 out of a 9mm.
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