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Old January 18, 2011, 12:15 AM   #2776
circuitspore
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Thanks again, Radagast.
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Old January 18, 2011, 12:27 AM   #2777
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here is a few pics of both of them.
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Old January 18, 2011, 12:44 AM   #2778
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couldnt get more than one to load at a time. I know the grips on the one are not the orig.
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Old January 18, 2011, 01:35 AM   #2779
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First post here at The High Road, thought I'd pick your guys' brains about a Smith I picked up earlier today. I've always loved the old K-frames, my dad has a Target Masterpiece that was the first centerfire revolver I ever fired, and I had a chance to trade a Blackhawk and some cash for what I believe is a Combat Masterpiece in pretty darn good shape. My question being, when I started trying to research it for a DoB, I found that Smith isn't nearly as user-friendly that way as Ruger. No handy serial-search tool for me, apparently!

I've attached a photo of the left side. Of particular note:

1: Caliber is 38 Special.

2: Barrel is 4"

3: Grips are square-bottom walnut, ending at the bottom of the frame, checkered with a diamond around the grip screw, and the S&W medallion set in the upper end of the grip.

4: Six shot cylinder.

5: Adjustable rear sight for elevation and windage, ramp front.

6: Serial number is K948XX That is correct, K then five digits. That kind of threw me, since most of the serials I saw listed for them had six.

7: The frame appears to have five screws. Three on the right side, one in the front of the trigger guard, and one in the front of the grip just above my pinkie when I grip it.

Thanks for any help you can give me dating this old girl, guys. I really need to take some photos in decent lighting.
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Old January 18, 2011, 07:31 AM   #2780
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Bigbore27:
Assuming a tight lock up that is a $250 to $350 gun. He did very well.
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Old January 18, 2011, 07:41 AM   #2781
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Komitadjie:
You have a K38 Combat Masterpiece manufactured in 1950. Serial range for that year was K84150 to K104047. The Combat Masterpiece was introduced in 1949, so yours is a second year production gun.
Your gun is a 5 screw model, with 4 on the side plate and one on the frame in front of the trigger guard. The 4th screw on the side plate is probably covered by the grip. The mainspring tensioning screw in the front of the grip frame is not counted in the screw count.
The Diamond Magna grips are correct for that time period, if you take them off you will probably find them numbered to the gun.

That is a magnificent unmarred example of a Pre Model 15. If you were in Australia I would be pestering you to sell it to me.
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Old January 18, 2011, 08:12 AM   #2782
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The canidian:
Serial number 206329 is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 3rd Change manufactured between 1909 & 1915 in the serial range 146900 to 241703.
The grips are correct for the period and are probably original to the gun, the grip adaptor is aftermarket but may be period correct.
This gun predates heat treatment of cylinders, so only load standard pressure lead ammunition in it, no PlusP, +P+ or jacketed ammo. The round that it would have been sighted in for would be the 158 grain round nose lead. Stick to that or 148 grain lead wadcutters.
It also predates the internal hammer block safety introduced during World War II. If dropped it could potentially fire. If kept loaded it would be prudent to leave the chamber under the hammer empty.
Due to the lack of finish its probably only worth around $250. With millions of M&Ps manufactured over the last 111 years collectors are only willing to pay decent money for rare variants or as new guns. Otherwise their value is as shooters, not collectors items.

Serial number 228817 is a problem. The serial number makes it a 1909 to 1915 gun. The Made in the USA stamping makes it a post 1920 gun, the ejector rod knob makes it a 1930s or later gun. .38 S&W was chambered in the M&Ps from 1940 on in the British Service Revolver, starting around the 646000 serial range.
I'm inclined to believe it is a British Service Revolver manufactured in 1942/43 and the V prefix to the serial number that was used at that time has been buffed off.
Check under the barrel and see if there is a serial number on the barrel flat. If original to the gun it will be B206329 and its pretty certain you have an old victory model.
If it doesn't match the gun then potentially you have a gun put together from parts.

Also check if a .38 Special will chamber in it. A lot of British Service Revolvers were bored out to chamber .38 special and sold as war surplus in the USA during the 50s and 60s. It was quite common to tart them up with fake stag grips such as the pair your gun wears.
If it will chamber a .38 special be aware that the .38 S&W chamber is wider at the rim than the .38 special, so the .38 special case will be unsupported near the rim and bulged or split cases may result. For this reason the advice not to shoot jacketed, plus P or +P+ ammo also applies to this firearm.
It also predates the positive hammer block safety by two years, so leave the chamber under the hammer empty.
Because of its poor condition value is very low, especially if it has been bored out from .38 S&W. Say $75 to $150.
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Old January 18, 2011, 10:10 AM   #2783
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S&W Model 29 no dash looks like stainless finish.
4 inch barrel
.44 Mag.
Target grips
Serial# S1858XX
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Old January 18, 2011, 08:23 PM   #2784
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The 228817 does not chamber a 38 special round it will stick out about 1/4-3/8 inch or so. When I looked under the barrel the number matches but it includs the V that you had said was rubbed off the butt of the weapon. V 228817 is how it is written.
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Old January 18, 2011, 09:35 PM   #2785
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The canidian:
Cool. I learnt something new today. Pre war and early commercial contract wartime guns had the serial number with a B for barrel stamped on the barrel flat. This ensured that people didn't take the barrel serial number (which would change when a gun was rebarreled) and record it as the guns serial number.
It makes sense that the Victory model would have the V prefix instead of the B, otherwise the barrel serial range would be duplicated on two sets of guns, which defeats the purpose of a serial number.
After the war S&W dropped the individual barrel serial number.

I recommend that if you keep the gun you have a V stamped or engraved on the butt to keep yourself legal. It is an offence to deface the serial number on a gun or to possess one with a defaced serial number. As the defacement probably occurred prior to the gun control act of '68 which required serial numbers on guns it would be hard for a small minded official to get a conviction, but why leave yourself open to the possibility?

In 1941 the M&P serial range hit 999999. S&Ws stamping machine didn't have room for a seventh digit, so they added a V for Victory as a prefix and reset the stamping machine at 1. For a while the V was hand stamped, so its not uncommon to see the V on one side of the lanyard loop hole and the numerals on the other.
When the USA entered the war the government took over production of revolvers at S&W. The .38 Special M&P with wartime finish for the US govt. is known as the Victory Model, the .38 S&W M&P for Commonwealth forces is known as the British Service Revolver, both shared the same serial range and US Govt property markings, as the BSR was supplied to Britain under the Lend Lease scheme. The BSR was usually covered in British proof and govt property stampings as well.
Yours has had the the US & British markings buffed off, which was quite common in the 50s and 60s: buff, cut the barrel back to 2 or 4 inches, bore out the cylinder to accept .38 special, a poor quality nickel refinish and a set of fake stag grips and it was ready to sell by mail order. Apart from the fake stag grips and the buff job yours escaped the butchering listed above. The V on the grip was probably buffed off at the same time.

It's still not worth more than $150 or so, in 95% condition BSRs will pull around $350 max; .38 S&W ammo is expensive and often hard to find and is low powered compared to the .38 Special so there isn't a lot of demand for these old guns. If you do want to shoot it and can't find ammo Old Western Scrounger sells .38 S&W on line.
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Old January 18, 2011, 09:48 PM   #2786
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sarge83:
Your Model 29 The .44 Magnum dates to 1958-1959. Serial range for those years was S182000 to S194499. The finish would be nickel, S&W introduced the first stainless steel gun in 1965.
In 2006 the Standard Catalog of S&W gave a value of $1100 in excellent condition. If the grips are original and of the 'coke bottle' style then they are worth upwards of $400. If so I'd buy a set of cheap aftermarkets for shooting and put the cokes in the fridge.. um I mean safe.
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Old January 19, 2011, 01:36 AM   #2787
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Hey, thanks for the quick answer, Radagast! I took a peek under the grips, and they do indeed bear the same number. I've been looking for a good K-38 for quite a while, but all of the ones I've had a chance to buy have been too beat up or generally mangled to really catch my interest. The photo really doesn't do this one justice, there's a slight bit of holster wear on the muzzle and front of the cylinder, and a single tiny scratch (eighth inch long, .002 or so wide) on the right side of the frame at the top screw, probably where someone slipped slightly with a screwdriver. Has a spin ring, obviously, but that's just the sign of a well-loved gun.

I do believe this one is going to see a lot of 2.7gr Bullseye-and-wadcutter cartridges from me, it has one of the nicest triggers of any pistol I've had the chance to shoot. To my uneducated finger, it feels very nearly as nice as the one on my Model 41, which really says something. This weekend is range time!
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Old January 19, 2011, 10:25 AM   #2788
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Your Model 29 The .44 Magnum dates to 1958-1959. Serial range for those years was S182000 to S194499. The finish would be nickel, S&W introduced the first stainless steel gun in 1965.
In 2006 the Standard Catalog of S&W gave a value of $1100 in excellent condition. If the grips are original and of the 'coke bottle' style then they are worth upwards of $400. If so I'd buy a set of cheap aftermarkets for shooting and put the cokes in the fridge.. um I mean safe.

-That is the gun described to a tee. It was a police officer's who along with his wife helped raise my wife when she was growing up. When the officer passed his widow sold it to his partner who happened to be a relative of mine. He came to me and wanted to sell it to me because he knew I collected and would take care of the gun, it had a lot of sentimental value to him. $600 for the gun in good condition with original and a set of replacement grips, the original basket weave holster the officer carried it in on duty and two boxes of .44 special ammo.

Thanks for the information I appreciate it.
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Old January 19, 2011, 03:50 PM   #2789
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serial #258214

Haven't been able to actually put my hands on it yet, but a local college kid has listed it for sale.

I'm guessing an old K frame, but don't know for sure.

Anyone here have the correct scoop?



Thanks
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Old January 19, 2011, 05:19 PM   #2790
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Hi doc540,


Pending Radagast's arrival, I can try for a few things on this -


Is it a 5 shot? Or, 6?


Revolver does appear to have been re-finished, and, also, possibly, to have had the Barrel Shortened.

Front sight is not a factory profile.

Stocks of course, are aftermarket.


If you can get the Serial Number ( which should be on the Butt, on the Cylinder Face, and, on the flat area of the underside of the Barrel close to the Frame ) Radagast could expand on all of the above while providing a date of mfg.


Does appear to be a fairly early Revolver though, so, likely is before 1921 anyway.


Value would be low, relative to even a worn finish original condition example...if mechanical condition were equal.

Last edited by Oyeboten; January 19, 2011 at 05:28 PM.
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Old January 19, 2011, 05:34 PM   #2791
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Thanks!

serial #258214

Appears to be a pre-Model 10, refinished, but S&W made some factory stocks like that.
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Old January 19, 2011, 10:32 PM   #2792
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Hi Radagast, how goes the recovery? Well, I hope. A fairly modern request (for me). S&W Model 19-4, 4", TT & TH, SN# 40K42XX

Thanks again,
Waidmann
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Old January 19, 2011, 11:52 PM   #2793
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komitadjie:
I really need a seething with jealousy emoticon. The Combat Masterpiece was developed as the service version of the K38 Target Masterpiece, in 1950 it hadn't yet become the mass produced weapon that was issued to the USAF, Tenessee Highway Patrol, etc. As a short barreled target pistol I would expect it to have a near perfect single action trigger and a very nice double action.
BTW, You now need a nice K22 Combat Masterpiece, the Pre Model 18 to go with it.

sarge83:
With that history I wouldn't care about the monetary value. I'm glad it came back into your family.

doc540:
You are looking at a K frame 5 screw M&P, it lacks the made in the USA stamp and has the early ejector rod, so its a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change manufactured between 1915 & September 1919.
Serial range for that period was 241794 to 316648, so 1915 seems likely.
The barrel has been shortened, standard barrel lengths at that time were 4, 5 & 6 inches, the gun appears to have a 3 or 3.5 inch barrel.
The standard front sight was a half moon, the flattened back on the sight is not original, my guess it it was modified when it was repositioned on the gun. It may be silver soldered in place without staking, which could make it prone to falling off when the barrel heats up - a problem I had with a Para Ordnance 1911.
The gun appears to be refinished, looking at the photos the seam of the side plate isn't a great fit. If the trigger and hammer are nickeled (hard to tell from the pic) then its definitely a non factory refinish.
The grips appear to be aftermarket resin Magna grips. Magnas (in Walnut) were not introduced by S&W until 1936, IIRC. The original grips would have been walnut with a round top, without the horns that go to the top of the back strap.

It's not a collectable gun, there are plenty of guns from the same period in better shape. If it passes the revolver check out thread test then I would offer no more than $250 as a shooter, maybe less. You should keep in mind that it predates heat treatment of cylinders, so it should only be loaded with standard velocity lead ammo, no PlusP, +P+, jacketed or semi jacketed.
It also predates the modern internal hammer block saqfety introduced in 1944. Potentially if dropped it could fire. Because of this if kept loaded the chamber under the hammer should be left empty.

So its not a great buy as a collectible and its not that great as a carry gun.
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Old January 20, 2011, 12:20 AM   #2794
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waidmann:
Recovery continues, latest x-rays show the spinal fusion is starting to take, I'm also dealing with the pain of three crushed/compressed nerve roots and a seperated joint in the pelvis. My osteopath/chiropractor is gradually releasing the nerve roots, he can't just bash them back into place for fear of damaging the surgery sites or the various damaged ligaments that are starting to heal. So I'll be on pain killers for a while longer, which means no shooting for me for the time being.

As for your Model 19-4 .357 Combat Magnum, it dates to the period 1978-1979. Serial range for those years was 25K0001 to 56K9999.
The 19-4 was manufactured from 1977 to 1982 and was the last pinned and recessed variant.
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Old January 20, 2011, 01:09 AM   #2795
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1st time post here

Hi folks. Have spent the last several hours reading this BBS and decided to sign up to try and get some info on a S&W 357mag I have. I've found enough info here so far to determine it's DOB was 1971, but I'm curious about some additional markings on the gun. The basic info is as follows...

S&W 357magnum.
Serial # stamped on the frame (above the yoke) is 2K23040
Then just below the serial number is stamped Mod 19-3
It has a 4" bbl, with adjustable rear sight, and a fixed ramp on the front.
Blued in finish.

Then on the yoke itself it has stamped the number 29496, and just below that is stamped "G13". The "G13" stamp appears to have been stamped with a different stamping method, i.e. the digits are much larger than the other numbers stamped on the gun, and the "G13" stamp is much lighter (not stamped near as deep)

A bit of history on this gun... I obtained it in late 1973 from a friend who was then an FBI agent in Florida. I had mentioned to him that I'd like to own a handgun and he brought this one to me. He told me that it was "government issued" but at the time I thought he was kidding. But now after reading a BUNCH of stuff on this BBS I'm wondering if the stamp on the yoke and the "G13" might possibly denote "Government usage" in some way? I dont think I've fired more than 25 rounds thru this thing in all the years I've owned it. I still have the origonal box and I believe the cleaning tools are in that box also.

And the BIG question is ... if the answers are yes to this being "Government issued", does that increase the value?

And lastly, how do I find out just what this baby is worth, should I decide to sell it?

I know, I know... so many questions from a "newbie". Thanks in adance.
Joe in 10aSEE
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Old January 20, 2011, 03:26 AM   #2796
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joein10aSEE:

The Model 19-3 Combat Magnum is an adjustable sight gun on S&Ws medium K frame. Hence the K in the serial number. All adjustable sight K frames from 1949 to 1983 had a K designation in the serial number.

2K23040 is the serial number, if you take off the grips you will find it duplicated on the bottom of the grip frame as well. All S&W revolvers have the number on the bottom of the grip frame. Some also have it on the frame under the cylinder yoke cut out.

29496 is an assembly number, used to track fitted or finished parts in the factory. For example, guns would be pulled apart to put through the bluing bath, assembly numbers ensured the right parts are put back together. If you take off the grips you will probably find more stampings on the flats of the grip frame.

G13 may be an assembly number or it may be a rack number added by a police department, I can't tell you which. The Model 19 was an issue weapon with the FBI during the 1970s, the Standard Catalog of S&W notes that 450 guns marked NIS (Naval Investigative Service) & ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) were transfered to the FBI in 1972. It doesn't mention any direct purchases by the FBI.

I am inclined to think that your gun was privately purchased by your friend - he wouldn't have sold you an issued department weapon as that would have been theft. He sold you a weapon of a type that was issued, one that he may have purchased through the FBI.

Without a letter from your friend giving its provenance you simply have a high quality firearm. Value varies greatly with condition, assuming excellent condition I would guesstimate the value as being $550 tops.
In 2006 the Standard Catalog of S&W gave a value of $475 for an excellent condition Model 19, of late $550 seems to be the price that THR members have been paying for a Stainless Model 66, so I would expect roughly the same for its blued equivalent, the Model 19.
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Old January 21, 2011, 12:37 AM   #2797
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Thank you Radagast, for your quick (and very informative) answer. In just a few short hours of persuing this bbs I have already come to the conclusion that you are certainly one of the ones here that have a wealth of knowledge. And the fact that you take the time and answer questions from "newbies" like myself when I'm sure these same questions get asked again, and again, and again is very much appreciated.

I'm glad I found this message board... thanks again.
Joe
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Old January 21, 2011, 01:01 AM   #2798
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I'm just a guy with a reference book and some time on his hands. There are plenty of real experts on THR though, so stick around if you have any questions. I've been a member for 8 years and I'm still learning something new every week.
As for helping newbies, thats how we get oldbies.
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Old January 21, 2011, 12:58 PM   #2799
Joe in fla
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model 28-2 SN N89859?

Can someone give me the production date of a model 28-2? SN N89859. Blued, 6" pinned barrel. Looks like a typical Highway Patrol model except for replacement grips. Thanks!
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Old January 21, 2011, 08:48 PM   #2800
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Smile

just wantted to know if you have anyone who could tell me about my ruger .22 single-six. numbered 375836. it is a single action that loads one round at a time from the right side it shoots great and is one of my favorite guns to shoot. and was also wondering if you know of a way to look up the age of RG .22. I have 2 of them and i know they are not worth their weight in well any thing but I would like to know how old they are. one is a model 66 numbered 204234 and the other says rg 24 on the handle and is numbered 52776
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