Eyes, alternative sighting, defensive pistol

[Joe Talmadge]

Okay, I have an eye dominance issue, but it's different than any issue I've seen so far.

The first time anyone told me to keep both eyes open was during the LFI-1 class I took with Mas Ayoob years ago. Made sense to me, that way I keep peripheral vision, and I imagine in a real fight both eyes would automatically snap open anyway. But when I tried to shoot with both eyes open, the sight picture was an absolute mess. The following conversation ensued between me and the guy next to me:

Me: You shooting with both eyes open?
Him: Yep
Me: Tell me what you see
Him: Front sight in-focus, target fuzzy
Me: You don't see two fuzzy targets?
Him: Nope, one fuzzy target.

So, in summary, when I keep both eyes open and focus on the sights, I see the target break into two. Lest you think I'm cross-dominant, I'm not ... but just to make sure, I tried lefty, and that doesn't change things.

Mas's explanation, which made sense to me: "It's rare, but sometimes the dominant eye is not dominant enough. Both your eyes are somewhat dominant, so when you keep them both open, you see two of everything". His solution: squint the "weak" (left) eye, which preserves some of my peripheral vision, but relieves the "two target" problem.

Since I'm not convinced that I could squint under combat conditions, I've become greatly interested in alternative sighting methods for close-quarters shooting -- i.e., methods were I focus both eyes on the target.

So my questions:
1. Has anyone else ever heard of the weak eye not being weak enough, resulting in my problem?
2. If so, is there anything I can do to weaken my weak eye, to end up with a more traditional eye dominance story?
3. In the meantime, which alternative sighting methods would you recommend? Cirillo-style? Chuck Klein's method? Something else?

Thanks!

Joe
heelh00k@yahoo.com <- note those are zeroes in the word "h00k"

[TarpleyG]

Putting a piece of scotch tape over my left lens helped me. I was having a similar problem and started off like this and gradually weaned myself off the tape. I still have trouble on occasion, esp. when I'm tired. Might work for you.

GT

[Chris Rhines]

Interesting. I have that exact same issue, but never knew that it was abnormal. I thought everybody saw two targets.

I use a piece of Scotch tape on my shooting glasses for bullseye, but for practical and combat shooting that's obviously not possible.

Indexing on a smaller target also seems to help. I still see two targets, but they are farther apart and it's easy to align the sights on the correct one.

- Chris

[Erick Gelhaus]

1) Yes, I'm quite familiar with it;
2) Nope, just let age take it's course ;
3) Won't venture a guess but I'll tell you what worked for me, if that would help?

I keep both eyes open all through the presentation or the movement from Guard / Low Ready onto the target. As the front sight comes into view, I would my "weak" eye. The degree of the squint did vary.

It worked for me, no guarantees.

Erick

[modifiedbrowning]

I've always had problems sighting with both eyes open. I see two fuzzy targets and two sets of fuzzy rearsights, when I focus on the frontsight. I have done the exercises to determine eye dominance and they always show my right eye as dominant (I am right handed) any suggestions?

[M1911]

I also see 2 targets when focussing on the front site. At close range (out to maybe 20 feet or so), I generally point shoot. At longer ranges, the only way I can get accuracy is to squint or close my left eye. I've used transparent tape in the past. That works fine on the range, but I won't have that choice while out and about.

[Joe Talmadge]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

Based on this and another thread, I'm beginning to think that seeing two fuzzy sights in the more common case, and the guy (my shooting buddy actually) who sees just one fuzzy target is just lucky.

I'm still not convinced that it's possible to squint in combat conditions. Even though I don't like it, I'm thinking the answer is: some kind of alternative sighting method for short distances, close left eye for longer distances.

Joe

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm right-eye dominant, but far-sighted in that eye, and near-sighted in the left eye.

When this condition began to develop, my shooting went to pot. I tried all sorts of things, including shooting with bifocals.

Finally, I developed a trick that worked. I tilt the head to the right, resting my chin on the right shoulder, and using the left eye to see the sights. At first, I practiced consciously closing the right eye, but with time was able to reach the point where the left eye took over automatically.

I now see the sights with the left eye, and the target with the right, and BOTH are in reasonable focus.

There's one caviet -- if I start to THINK about what I'm doing, the picture gets screwed up. If I just do it, and concentrate on making the shot, everything works out fine.

[Preacherman]

I'm right-handed, but left-eye-dominant. Mas Ayoob gave me the same advice - squint the left eye slightly, thus shifting focus to the right eye - and this has worked fine for me so far. Of course, if I see more than two targets, it's because I had too much communion wine at Mass that day!

[1911]

Modifiedbrowning and others.

Carry two guns,that way you will hav four guns on two bad guys.That way one of them is bound to make the mark.


I learned that from Desperado!lololo

Or

Doc Holiday from Tombstone.

I have two guns,one for each of ya

[Fatcat]

Huh? Common sense dictates that if your eyes are focused on something close (or far away, or whatever.. ignoring the effect of distance right now), like the front sight of your gun, then things past that will be doubled. Think of an X: the center point is where you're focusing, and past that your eyes are essentially looking in two different directions, therefore reporting two different things to your brain. Your brain is just displaying both of them to you at the same time. One of the pitfalls of binocular vision, I suppose.

Personally, while shooting, I've learned to just aim at the image that is on the right, it always ends up being the actual target. Must just be the way my eyes work.

I think your friend is just weird.

[stevec]

I'm left eye dominant, right handed. When I practice dry firing at home, I have no problem with keeping both eye open.

_BUT_ when I hit the range, and I'm shooting in those dark booths, I can't sight for squat with both eyes open.

Steve

[Vern Humphrey]

It takes practice. I find for those learning to shoot with the non-dominant eye, putting the chin on the shoulder helps -- this cocks the head and forces the non-dominant eye into the position of prominence. I would originally exaggerate this position, holding the gun so I couldn't see it with the dominant eye (check by closing the non-dominant eye -- you should see only the bicep and elbow of the shooting arm.)

[az_ccw]

I'm right-handed, but left-eye-dominant. Mas Ayoob gave me the same advice - squint the left eye slightly, thus shifting focus to the right eye - and this has worked fine for me so far.

I am in the same situation . . . right handed and left eye dominant. However, I was always under the impression we need to shoot with our dominant eye. But it sounds as if Ayoob is telling you to force yourself to use the right eye because you are right handed. This feels really awkward to me.

What about shooting a rifle . . . do you shoot right handed and force yourself to use your right eye? (assuming you have shot a rifle )

[Peetmoss]

I am left eye dominate and right handed. I also believe you can train your brain to only use one eye as it's main point of vision. The other eye becomes a backup and helps with depth perception. I have come to this theory over time based on mine and a friends expierance. I was right eye dominate when I was younger but because of the inabilitaty to keep my faster detierierating right eye as good as my left my left eye became the dominate eye. And my buddy who was blinded in his right eye and learned to do all with his left eye. It took awhile and alot of laughing at him but his brain compinsated some how and he can do anything anyone with two eyes can.

[Vern Humphrey]

You can easily train the non-dominant eye by taking the dominant eye out of the picture. As I said, I do this, not by squinting, but by tucking my chin into my shoulder and holding the pistol with a Weaver grip so the dominant eye cannot see it.

After a while, modify the stance to allow the dominant eye into the game. With my eyes (right eye far-sighted, left eye near-sighted) I can use the non-dominant (left) eye to get a clear sight alignment, and still see the target with the right eye.

But when you reach this level, DON'T think about it. If you get to thinking about what you see, suddenly your nice, clear sight picture will resolve into multiple targets and fuzzy sights.