30-06 remington mosin nagant?

EricTheBarbarian · September 5, 2008, 02:57 PM

Well, while browsing in the small local gun store here in town I saw something that caught my eye. At first i just thought it was a butchered MN 91/30 but it said 30-06 and had Remington arms stamped on the hex receiver.
So, i asked the guy to tell me about the rifle. He had a story I've never heard before. Apparently Remington had a contract with Russia for 50,000 MNs. I guess Russian never paid, so Remington only shipped about 10,000 to Russia, kept the rest and rebarreled them in 30-06.

The guy acknowledged that it had been "sporterized" which meant shaving down the stock and removing the wooden pieces around the barrel and having sling swivels mounted. He claims the standard looking V-notch sight on the barrel was one Remington put on after removing the military sight. Why a stock needs to be shaved down to hunt with it, I'll never know.

He was asking $200. Is this story legit or is the guy just full of crap? Also, does anyone know what is a fair price for such a rifle?

rcmodel · September 5, 2008, 03:04 PM

No, not true.

It is either a home-brew conversion, or a Bannerman conversion.
Most likely the former.

In either case, it is probably not safe to shoot.

Anyway, unless it has had a new barrel installed, it has the wrong bore size for .308" bullets used in the 30-06.

Heres the real story of the Russian arms deal default.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/US-Mosin-Nagants.asp

rcmodel

Jason M · September 5, 2008, 03:12 PM

Remington did make trigger groups and such for them back in the late 1800's and very early 1900's. My oldest 91/30 has trigger parts stamped with Remington quality inspection symbols. But to the best of my knowledge none of them were ever made in .30-06.

Jason

EricTheBarbarian · September 5, 2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Anyway, unless it has had a new barrel installed,

I wouldn't say "new" barrel installed. It definitely has a different barrel installed. Part of the front of the receiver is missing and it looks like it was cut down some to fit properly.

It still doesn't sound like a good buy for $200.

rcmodel · September 5, 2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Remington did make trigger groups and such for them

Both Remington & Westinghouse made complete rifles for a Russian contract that fell through.

See the link above for details.

rcmodel

Vaarok · September 5, 2008, 03:57 PM

What they did was cut off the back of the barrel and chamber, and re-thread it, because a 7.62x54r case is much wider at the base than a .30-06 Springfield.

Because they moved the barrel back, the new .30-06 chamber extends further forward- out of the knoxform and into the barrel.

Not real safe to shoot, but for $150 a pretty neat collectable.

EricTheBarbarian · September 5, 2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Not real safe to shoot

Anyone care to explain what issues specifically make this unsafe to shoot?

Cosmoline · September 5, 2008, 04:32 PM

The problem as I understand it is .30'06 is rimless and pretty straight, while 54R has a big rim and sloping sides. So to get the chamber recut for '06 you have to slice off the back end of the chamber and ream way into the barrel past the shank. So instead of having a huge Mosin shank supporting the main body of the round, you have support only about half way up then just the thin barrel walls. Plus the '06 is a notch longer than the 54R so you have trouble there too.

It's probably fine for moderate ball level loads and cast loads, but then again it might not be. The official word I've seen on the Bannermans is not to shoot them, and certainly not to shoot modern full power 06 out of them.

They do have value as a curiosity, though.

Bill2e · September 5, 2008, 04:48 PM

DO NOT SHOOT.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/US-Mosin-Nagants.asp

Scroll to the bottom & read the RED text

SlamFire1 · September 5, 2008, 05:16 PM

I would love to see a picture of a Bannerman conversion.

I have no doubt that the M1891 would be strong enough to handle a 30-06, but it would require a newly installed barrel.

The 7.62 russian is a highpowered round, and with the rimmed round having a lot of surface area, the thrust to the bolt face would be considerable. I don't think it is out of the range of possiblity that the action is strong enough for a 30-06. For a rimless cartridge the bolt face flange would have to be machined off, or you would leave a lot of cartridge sidewall sticking out of the chamber. Then what do you do about an extractor?

Then, the feed lips are cut for the Russian round.....

All in all, it is probably better to leave the action in the original caliber.

Still, I am curious to see how Bannerman did it.

Ash · September 5, 2008, 07:08 PM

The action could handle it, the problem, as mentioned, is the quality of the conversion.

Ash

EricTheBarbarian · September 5, 2008, 09:50 PM

Thanks THR for all the help and advice. I like to collect firearms, and I'm a fan of Mosins but I can't justify buying a rifle for $200 that probably isn't safe to shoot.

publiuss · September 5, 2008, 11:42 PM

Ouc,ouch,ouch, I would imagine if you shoot.

mgregg85 · September 6, 2008, 12:46 AM

I'd do like many advise and trim or remove the firing pin if you do buy it. Just so there can be no accidents.

Ash · September 6, 2008, 09:26 AM

For a Mosin collector, a Bannerman is really a nice prize.

Ash

stoney11 · October 6, 2009, 08:04 PM

it has russian proofs on the metal and the stock. 'remington arms' is partially covered by the hex receiver..but the stock is also stamped 'u.s.' with the flaming bomb....

everything is cherry...

what is it?

also the rear sight is a military sight, but not like any moisin i've seen

offthepaper · October 6, 2009, 09:00 PM

Can you post pics?

dirtyjim · October 6, 2009, 09:04 PM

the bannermans can be shot with very light cast bullet loads but not with modern high power loads. if its in decent shape $200 is not a bad deal if you want to add one to your collection. remington did build a couple of them in 30-06 with the intention of selling them commercialy but they never made it out of the factory. remington also fitted a few of them with peterson devices.
here are a few pictures of my bannerman 30-06 mosin.

in this picture you can see how far the barrel had to be set back for the chamber to clean up, this is what makes them unsafe to fire with modern high power loads.

pic of the bannerman bolt face next to a unmodified bolt face, bannerman is on the right

pic of the modified magazine.

offthepaper · October 6, 2009, 09:13 PM

D-Jim

I have a poor man's collection of Mosins, about a dozen, (they're like peanuts), but I gotta tell you. That is cooler than cool for an addition to a Mosin collection. Does anyone know how many of these were produced? That's the first one I 've ever seen or heard of. Man, I'm jealous.

GD · October 6, 2009, 10:25 PM

I have run into several Bannerman's at gunshows in Kansas. The last one I saw about 2 years ago and the gentleman wanted $300 for it. Bannerman converted a number of these right after WW1. They were pretty popular so I am guessing quite a few were made. I definitely would not shoot one.

dirtyjim · October 6, 2009, 10:44 PM

mosins were also rebarreled in 8mm mauser by poland.
i consider the Polish Model 1891/98/25 to be the holy grail of mosins & i have seen them top $2000.

the us government even used a few of the remington mosins in WWI.
it was designated the M1916 and issued to the expeditionary forces stationed in England.
the 339th army assisted the russians using reminton mosin nagants until august of1919 when the war was over & they left russia

Jim Keenan · October 6, 2009, 10:54 PM

I believe that the U.S. government bought those guns from the American makers (sort of an earlier day bailout to keep the companies from going broke), used some for training and drill in the original caliber, and then sold them as surplus. Many were bought by Bannerman, who did the conversions to .30-'06.

I had a friend who hunted with one of the .30-'06 conversions for years and had no problems, but I will second the advice not to shoot them. The action is very strong and perfectly adequate for .30-'06, except for the barrel problem mentioned above where the .30-'06 case extends beyond the barrel swell.

Edited to add: I forgot about the Russian expedition using U.S. made Mosin-Nagants. Thanks, Dirtyjim

Jim

Max C. · October 7, 2009, 07:15 AM

If one want to shoot them using commercial ammo would the M1 Garand "compatible" 30-06 rounds be the best bet?

krochus · October 7, 2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max C.

If one want to shoot them using commercial ammo would the M1 Garand "compatible" 30-06 rounds be the best bet?

do not shoot a 30/06 conversion Mosin

did you not bother to read ANY of the other posts in this thread?

jpwilly · October 8, 2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

If one want to shoot them using commercial ammo would the M1 Garand "compatible" 30-06 rounds be the best bet?

Quote:

do not shoot a 30/06 conversion Mosin

did you not bother to read ANY of the other posts in this thread?

I'm perplexed and amazed all at the same time! Dear Max...do so at your own risk and preferably by yourself.

September 5, 2008, 02:57 PM	#1
EricTheBarbarian Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: Down Range Posts: 752	30-06 remington mosin nagant? Well, while browsing in the small local gun store here in town I saw something that caught my eye. At first i just thought it was a butchered MN 91/30 but it said 30-06 and had Remington arms stamped on the hex receiver. So, i asked the guy to tell me about the rifle. He had a story I've never heard before. Apparently Remington had a contract with Russia for 50,000 MNs. I guess Russian never paid, so Remington only shipped about 10,000 to Russia, kept the rest and rebarreled them in 30-06. The guy acknowledged that it had been "sporterized" which meant shaving down the stock and removing the wooden pieces around the barrel and having sling swivels mounted. He claims the standard looking V-notch sight on the barrel was one Remington put on after removing the military sight. Why a stock needs to be shaved down to hunt with it, I'll never know. He was asking $200. Is this story legit or is the guy just full of crap? Also, does anyone know what is a fair price for such a rifle?

September 5, 2008, 03:12 PM	#3
Jason M Member Join Date: July 25, 2008 Location: Central Florida Posts: 171	Remington did make trigger groups and such for them back in the late 1800's and very early 1900's. My oldest 91/30 has trigger parts stamped with Remington quality inspection symbols. But to the best of my knowledge none of them were ever made in .30-06. Jason __________________ "The only way to deal with a threat is to meet it with a sudden, violent and explosive response." -Jeff Cooper "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." - Clint Smith

September 5, 2008, 04:32 PM	#8
Cosmoline Member Join Date: December 29, 2002 Location: Los Anchorage Posts: 16,787	The problem as I understand it is .30'06 is rimless and pretty straight, while 54R has a big rim and sloping sides. So to get the chamber recut for '06 you have to slice off the back end of the chamber and ream way into the barrel past the shank. So instead of having a huge Mosin shank supporting the main body of the round, you have support only about half way up then just the thin barrel walls. Plus the '06 is a notch longer than the 54R so you have trouble there too. It's probably fine for moderate ball level loads and cast loads, but then again it might not be. The official word I've seen on the Bannermans is not to shoot them, and certainly not to shoot modern full power 06 out of them. They do have value as a curiosity, though. __________________ Moving like an arctic lizard.

September 5, 2008, 05:16 PM	#10
SlamFire1 Member Join Date: December 29, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,887	I would love to see a picture of a Bannerman conversion. I have no doubt that the M1891 would be strong enough to handle a 30-06, but it would require a newly installed barrel. The 7.62 russian is a highpowered round, and with the rimmed round having a lot of surface area, the thrust to the bolt face would be considerable. I don't think it is out of the range of possiblity that the action is strong enough for a 30-06. For a rimless cartridge the bolt face flange would have to be machined off, or you would leave a lot of cartridge sidewall sticking out of the chamber. Then what do you do about an extractor? Then, the feed lips are cut for the Russian round..... All in all, it is probably better to leave the action in the original caliber. Still, I am curious to see how Bannerman did it. __________________ Accuracy is a skill acquired through constant practice.

September 5, 2008, 07:08 PM	#11
Ash Member Join Date: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3,476	The action could handle it, the problem, as mentioned, is the quality of the conversion. Ash __________________ Former member.

September 5, 2008, 03:04 PM	#2
rcmodel Member Join Date: September 17, 2007 Location: Eastern KS Posts: 18,447	No, not true. It is either a home-brew conversion, or a Bannerman conversion. Most likely the former. In either case, it is probably not safe to shoot. Anyway, unless it has had a new barrel installed, it has the wrong bore size for .308" bullets used in the 30-06. Heres the real story of the Russian arms deal default. http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/US-Mosin-Nagants.asp rcmodel

September 5, 2008, 03:57 PM	#6
Vaarok Member Join Date: December 14, 2006 Location: CNY Posts: 1,251	What they did was cut off the back of the barrel and chamber, and re-thread it, because a 7.62x54r case is much wider at the base than a .30-06 Springfield. Because they moved the barrel back, the new .30-06 chamber extends further forward- out of the knoxform and into the barrel. Not real safe to shoot, but for $150 a pretty neat collectable.

September 5, 2008, 04:48 PM	#9
Bill2e Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Posts: 599	DO NOT SHOOT. http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/US-Mosin-Nagants.asp Scroll to the bottom & read the RED text

September 5, 2008, 09:50 PM	#12
EricTheBarbarian Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: Down Range Posts: 752	Thanks THR for all the help and advice. I like to collect firearms, and I'm a fan of Mosins but I can't justify buying a rifle for $200 that probably isn't safe to shoot.

September 5, 2008, 11:42 PM	#13
publiuss Member Join Date: September 19, 2005 Posts: 286	Ouc,ouch,ouch, I would imagine if you shoot. __________________ "Suppose you were a member of Congress, and suppose you were an idiot, but I repeat myself" Mark Twain

September 6, 2008, 09:26 AM	#15
Ash Member Join Date: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3,476	For a Mosin collector, a Bannerman is really a nice prize. Ash __________________ Former member.

October 6, 2009, 08:04 PM	#16
stoney11 Member Join Date: October 6, 2009 Posts: 2	i just bought one of those, as described it has russian proofs on the metal and the stock. 'remington arms' is partially covered by the hex receiver..but the stock is also stamped 'u.s.' with the flaming bomb.... everything is cherry... what is it? also the rear sight is a military sight, but not like any moisin i've seen

October 6, 2009, 09:00 PM	#17
offthepaper Member Join Date: December 5, 2005 Posts: 1,187	Can you post pics? __________________ Always remember the Boy Scout motto...

October 6, 2009, 09:04 PM	#18
dirtyjim Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: alvin texas Posts: 456	the bannermans can be shot with very light cast bullet loads but not with modern high power loads. if its in decent shape $200 is not a bad deal if you want to add one to your collection. remington did build a couple of them in 30-06 with the intention of selling them commercialy but they never made it out of the factory. remington also fitted a few of them with peterson devices. here are a few pictures of my bannerman 30-06 mosin. in this picture you can see how far the barrel had to be set back for the chamber to clean up, this is what makes them unsafe to fire with modern high power loads. pic of the bannerman bolt face next to a unmodified bolt face, bannerman is on the right pic of the modified magazine.

October 6, 2009, 09:13 PM	#19
offthepaper Member Join Date: December 5, 2005 Posts: 1,187	D-Jim I have a poor man's collection of Mosins, about a dozen, (they're like peanuts), but I gotta tell you. That is cooler than cool for an addition to a Mosin collection. Does anyone know how many of these were produced? That's the first one I 've ever seen or heard of. Man, I'm jealous. __________________ Always remember the Boy Scout motto...

October 6, 2009, 10:25 PM	#20
GD Member Join Date: December 26, 2002 Location: Wichita Posts: 536	I have run into several Bannerman's at gunshows in Kansas. The last one I saw about 2 years ago and the gentleman wanted $300 for it. Bannerman converted a number of these right after WW1. They were pretty popular so I am guessing quite a few were made. I definitely would not shoot one.

October 6, 2009, 10:44 PM	#21
dirtyjim Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: alvin texas Posts: 456	mosins were also rebarreled in 8mm mauser by poland. i consider the Polish Model 1891/98/25 to be the holy grail of mosins & i have seen them top $2000. the us government even used a few of the remington mosins in WWI. it was designated the M1916 and issued to the expeditionary forces stationed in England. the 339th army assisted the russians using reminton mosin nagants until august of1919 when the war was over & they left russia

October 6, 2009, 10:54 PM	#22
Jim Keenan Member Join Date: December 31, 2002 Posts: 9,151	I believe that the U.S. government bought those guns from the American makers (sort of an earlier day bailout to keep the companies from going broke), used some for training and drill in the original caliber, and then sold them as surplus. Many were bought by Bannerman, who did the conversions to .30-'06. I had a friend who hunted with one of the .30-'06 conversions for years and had no problems, but I will second the advice not to shoot them. The action is very strong and perfectly adequate for .30-'06, except for the barrel problem mentioned above where the .30-'06 case extends beyond the barrel swell. Edited to add: I forgot about the Russian expedition using U.S. made Mosin-Nagants. Thanks, Dirtyjim Jim

October 7, 2009, 07:15 AM	#23
Max C. Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Posts: 81	If one want to shoot them using commercial ammo would the M1 Garand "compatible" 30-06 rounds be the best bet?

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