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Old June 17, 2015, 04:26 AM   #1
1911 guy
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Lyme disease diagnosis and questionable "facts"

Memorial Day weekend I took two ticks off my 5 y.o. daughter, one leg and one scalp. All the reading i did stated flatly that a tick must be attached for 24-36 hours to transmit the spirochete that causes Lyme. The ticks were attached for less than 8. However, my wife nagged about getting the blood test just to be safe. It came back positive and I have to drive my daughter in to Akron Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital this coming Friday.

To all you hunters out there, be careful this year. The ticks are bad, one study showed that in my area (N.E. Ohio) 8% of all collected ticks were carriers. And I can tell you from personal experience (via my daughter) that the current literature is very wrong about the amount of time required to transmit the disease.

Check thoroughly, if in doubt get the blood test. Better antibiotics now than a full blown case of Lyme disease later.

According to the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html
In this link they claim a minimum 24 hour threshold. WRONG!
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Old June 17, 2015, 05:31 AM   #2
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1911 guy ! I was diagnosed with lymes , I didn't even remember having a tick on me. It is terrible when it sets in. Like malaria! Google Dr. Hulda Clark zapper! Helps me!
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Old June 17, 2015, 06:36 AM   #3
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I believe I had Lyme disease when I was approximately 21. Bit by a tick(no idea on actual length of exposure), and within a few days, had a fever of 104, extreme aches, etc. Went to Dr, and got prescribed a round of antibiotics, which did what was necessary appearntly. That said, I believe I have some "after-effects" from the disease. When I get the flu or something similiar now, I suffer EXTREME joint pain, most predominately in my knees. This happens almost without fail at this point whenever I get very ill.
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Old June 17, 2015, 07:45 AM   #4
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Thoughts and prayers for your little girl. Thanks for the warning.

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Old June 17, 2015, 10:48 AM   #5
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The 24 hour "rule" has been shown not to apply to Lymes DZ. It seems to be true with Rocky Mtn. spotted fever and Lone Star DZ though. There is a newly-identified tickborne DZ that is supposed to be a bear. I can't find much info on it though.

I get bitten by ticks at least 8-10 times/year but have never had symptoms of any serious illness. Lyme's was not prevalent in Fla. until recently though. I always take a very hot shower when returning home from the woods and that usually dislodges any hidden ticks from the places I can't see well. When out for an extended time, I wipe down with 91% isopropyl alcohol and that works too.

Permethrin applied to clothing in advance is a good deterrent to ticks.
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Old June 17, 2015, 10:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
All the reading i did stated flatly that a tick must be attached for 24-36 hours to transmit the spirochete that causes Lyme.
Yeah, that was the old thinking. It is now accepted that transmission can occur in much less than 24 hours.

A quote from the following: http://www.ilads.org/lyme/what-to-do-if-bit-by-tick.php

Quote:
While the longer the tick is attached, the higher the risk of transmission, it is possible to get Lyme disease even if the tick is attached for less than 24 hours. The salivary juices of the tick, which contain anticoagulants, anesthetics, and immune suppressors, also contain microbes that can be injected at the time of attachment.
For a brief period of 4 years or so between 1998 and 2002, there was an anti-Lyme vaccine available on the market. Despite being effective in preventing the disease, it was withdrawn from the market due to bad press (and resulting low demand) regarding unproven claims that the vaccine itself could cause "Lyme arthritis". (http://www.historyofvaccines.org/con...isease-vaccine)
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Old June 17, 2015, 10:56 AM   #7
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Fighting lymes right now actually. I haven't herx'd bad yet.. just this unending fatigue.
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Old June 17, 2015, 12:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
There is a newly-identified tickborne DZ that is supposed to be a bear. I can't find much info on it though.
Probably Bourbon virus.
It showed up by killing a man 85 miles south of here last year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_virus

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Old June 17, 2015, 01:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patocazador View Post
Permethrin applied to clothing in advance is a good deterrent to ticks.
The ticks are prevalent in NY this year and Lyme has been here for some time. I treated our clothes with permethrin before camping Memorial Day weekend and then the next week I read about the link between pyrethroids (permethrin is one) and ADHD in boys.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0601122535.htm
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Old June 17, 2015, 01:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
The ticks are bad, one study showed that in my area (N.E. Ohio) 8% of all collected ticks were carriers.
Lyme cases in Ashtabula Co seem to be increasing, don't know if because of an increase in infected ticks or just an increase in testing but it's bad stuff. One outdoorsman I know has been suffering with his health for a few years and just got a diagnosis and started treatment, a high school girl has been in a wheelchair for a few years because of Lyme.
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Old June 17, 2015, 02:17 PM   #11
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I feel like crap all the time, figured it old age.
Bud got bit a couple of yrs ago where we hunt turkeys down south, not Lymes but he was sick for about a year.
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Old June 17, 2015, 02:51 PM   #12
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Take Lyme D seriously. I had it misdiagnosed for awhile. I was eventually treated with ABX and much better but still have some mild residual symptoms.
The crazy thing was at the time I was sick with it, CDC said it wasn't in NW Illinois (E Iowa and Wisconsin have both been hot zones for years). If the CDC says its not here then MDs aren't checking for it. If nobody is testing for it then there are no reported positives. If there are no positives then it must not be here...
Also: There is some disagreement on the accuracy and validity of the standard testing. the standard ELISA test may give a false negative, esp after initial accute response.
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Old June 17, 2015, 02:53 PM   #13
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To be fair, the CDC article states:

Quote:
In most cases, the tick must be attached for 36 to 48 hours or more before the Lyme disease bacterium can be transmitted.
Emphasis added. That hardly qualifies as "stating flatly" that a tick MUST be attached for that long.
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Old June 17, 2015, 03:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
There is some disagreement on the accuracy and validity of the standard testing. the standard ELISA test may give a false negative, esp after initial accute response.
Yes. According to this source: http://www.ilads.org/lyme/about-lyme.php

Quote:
The elisa screening test is unreliable. The test misses 35% of culture proven Lyme disease (only 65% sensitivity) and is unacceptable as the first step of a two-step screening protocol. By definition, a screening test should have at least 95% sensitivity.
And on other tests:

Quote:
Of patients with acute culture-proven Lyme disease, 2030% remain seronegative on serial western blot sampling. Antibody titers also appear to decline over time; thus while the western blot may remain positive for months, it may not always be sensitive enough to detect chronic infection with the Lyme spirochete.
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Old June 17, 2015, 04:56 PM   #15
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My ELISA was Negative and even though I had a rash (up to 50% may not have a rash) the Neurologist insisted it was not Lyme. the 3rd neurologist finally Dx'd me with MS because they could find anything else and I was having neuro symptoms including vision problems and they had to call it something!
Several months later our black lab went down with LD and the vet told us our area was full of Lyme. (Huh?) The vets had been treating it for 3 years but the MDs were just starting to test for it. I sought out different specialists and started aggressive ABX therapy. 3 weeks into the antibiotics and my symptoms improved. 3 months later I tested positive on the IGENEX Western Blot for the proteins specific to the Lyme bacteria.
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Old June 17, 2015, 05:49 PM   #16
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I've been in treatment for 2.5 years. The Dr and I think my treatment is about done. What I've learned during this time:
Ignore anything and everything put out about Lyme by the CDC and the IDSA. They know d**k about this disease.
ILADS is the place for good info.
If the blood test isn't done by igenex, it is not a reliable test. You can get a kit from them and send the sample yourself, you just need someone to draw a sample for you.
Bottom line, if you get bit, go to the doc and insist on 30 days of doxycycline. If you wait for symptoms to appear it may already be in the chronic stage.
I recommend watching Under Our Skin, a movie about the disease and it's treatment. It's available on Netflix and Amazon prime.
I would rather have cancer than Lyme! There are whole hospitals dedicated to cancer treatment whereas Lyme is completely ignored
Most people who have Lyme also have one or more of the following: Babesia, Bartonella, or Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, the associated diseases. I have/had all of the above.
Dr's in GA are ignorant in the treatment and even the existence of Lyme in this area. I travel to California to see a team of Dr's.
The tick that bit me was on me no longer than 1.5 hrs this is the amount of time I was doing yard work before coming in for a bathroom break when I found it. I had no rash.
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Old June 17, 2015, 06:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Bottom line, if you get bit, go to the doc and insist on 30 days of doxycycline.
Your doctor would be negligent if he prescribed for you a regiment of doxycycline every time you got a tick bite as a prophylaxis. There are a number of potentially serious side effects.

------------------------------

One of the things I find interesting is that folks virtually always assume that the tick they found was the tick that caused the problem, though virtually none ever actually have the tick tested. What they have failed to consider is the tick(s) that bit them previously, stayed for a few days, actually infected them, and dropped off, completely unnoticed.

That is part of the reason why there are so many cases of Lyme Disease where the person has no recollection of being bitten by a tick.
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Old June 17, 2015, 07:00 PM   #18
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I haven't seen any ticks around here (TX) for years. The fire ants have pretty much cleared them out. With all the rain we have had, mounds are popping up every where.

I hope they get it knocked out quickly, early detection is key to treatment.
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Old June 17, 2015, 07:21 PM   #19
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The deer ticks that transmit it are so tiny you rarely see them. If you do, it's no guarantee that that's the one that gave it to you.

I've had the bulls eyes 3 times, and my dog has tested positive for it in the past. What's funny is there is a Lyme Dis. vaccine for dogs, but not for people.

When I lived in Westchester Co. NY and Fairfield Co. CT, Lyme was everywhere. Westchester Co. Med. Center has a dedicated Lyme Dis. center.
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Old June 17, 2015, 07:23 PM   #20
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False positives run as high as 25% and false negatives are worse than that. The tests leave a lot to be desired.
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Old June 17, 2015, 09:48 PM   #21
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I've had the bulls eyes 3 times, and my dog has tested positive for it in the past. What's funny is there is a Lyme Dis. vaccine for dogs, but not for people.
Well, there IS - or more accurately WAS - one for people. You can refer back to post #6 for the explanation on that.
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Old June 21, 2015, 09:00 AM   #22
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If you go out in the woods much in most of the lower 2/3rds of the US, you will eventually have a tick attached in you. I think they need to improve the blood test to reduce the false results.

Hope the antibiotics take care of it.
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Old June 21, 2015, 02:47 PM   #23
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several years ago, i was having severe joint pain in ankles and wrists, but mostly when doing kneeling and seated shooting positions. went and had blood test done, which they said was off the charts for RMSF antibodies. I never saw a tick or got rashes or flu like symptoms, but did hike a bit of the AT 6 months prior. They put me on some medicine i don't recall for 45 days or so and it cut the pain in half but i'm pretty much still living with the other half. it ended my CMP/HP shooting
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Old June 21, 2015, 04:21 PM   #24
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I have had Lyme myself and have had several bird dogs with it. My present GWP female has tested positive for the antibodies, but the vets around here do not treat it in dogs unless they exhibit symptoms. They claim that 60% of the dogs they test, test positive for the disease. They also claim that over half of the deer/bear ticks tested, test positive for it. Thus, if you have more than one tick attach itself to you, odds are you've been exposed. Problem is, immature deer/bear ticks are almost invisible to the naked eye and are just as likely to give you Lyme as their adult counterparts. I too never saw a tick where the bullseye rash first appeared. I also have joint stiffness and pain my doctors attributes to the disease even tho it was discovered and treated early. I know of many folks with problems stemming from the disease because it was misdiagnosed or they were not tested for it till later on in the cycle. I think folks in areas where the disease is present should have the test even if they have not seen a tick imbedded in them or developed the rash. One of my biggest fears is that one of my kids or grandkids will also be infected. Good thing is, ticks are highly susceptible to most bug repellents and are easily deterred.
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Old June 22, 2015, 12:24 AM   #25
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Good thing is, ticks are highly susceptible to most bug repellents and are easily deterred
This has not been my experience at all. I can cover myself, clothes, and gear in repellent and come out of the woods covered in ticks.

I usually catch them before they attach because you can feel them on your body hair. Unfortunately they seem to be attracted to regions with heavy body hair......

I wonder if many people have Lyme but it only shows symptoms in some individuals? Over the course of the spring and summer I probably have a hundred or more ticks on my skin but only have to remove a couple.

Either way I'll be backpacking this weekend and doing some hog hunting but I'll remain vigilant. I am even thinking about applying permathin to one pant leg and spray repellent to the other.

Science will tell me which is more effective after I count the ticks on each leg and compare note

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