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Old August 26, 2014, 10:04 PM   #1
AKElroy
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AK's Don't Shoot??

I thought these things were not supposed to group....

I bought this Milled Polish 1960 off GB a couple of years back. It came with pretty ironwood furniture, and a non-chrome-lined Green Mountain Barrel. I added an Ultimak gas tube/rail, an Aimpoint 9000L, a GG&G barrel mount for a TLR-1HL.

The Aimpoint nicely co-witnesses the irons, and this weekend I took it to the lease to re-set the zero after installing the light-mount. (I broke one of the aimpoint ring bases and had to replace the rings)

Shooting off the tailgate of my truck at a lased 50 yards, the Golden Bear 125 gr. Soft Points grouped nicely, and I had it on target in no time. This AK will definitely be seeing pig duty, and maybe a whitetail or two if the Golden Bear performs on the pigs.

I will keep the 50 yard zero; should put me 1.5" or so high at 100, pretty much ideal for our place.

Anyone else get decent groups from an AK?
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:07 PM   #2
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~4 MOA, give or take?
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:13 PM   #3
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A lot of their bad reputation comes from the poor sights that come on them and fact that most people shoot the cheapest available ammo. Put decent sights and use decent ammo and they are a lot better than people claim, even with the normally crappy triggers, at least that's been my experience.
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:25 PM   #4
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Compared to oft-repeated jokes or bad LGS counter advice, AK's are accurate and AR's are reliable. At least if you do your part in operation and parts/rifle/ammo acquisition and care
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:27 PM   #5
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My 7.62x39mm Saiga will shoot 2 - 2.5 MOA easily. I just have to do my part.
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:32 PM   #6
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Not bad... I'd take that hog hunting in a New York minute.
Quote:
Anyone else good decent groups from an AK?
My old WASR would hold sub chest-sized groups out to 400 yards from prone with a sling. That comes out to about 6 MOA. It would do about 4 MOA at closer ranges (200 yards on in). That's all using Golden Tiger steel cased ammo and iron sights.

Very cool setup with the Aimpoint. I have an old Aimpoint Comp M that would be great to throw on an AK... I'm keeping my eye out for a deal on one. I was holding out for a converted Saiga, but now that the Federals have embargoed us from those and the prices have shot up, I'm thinking about grabbing another WASR for $530 or so. I was pretty impressed with my last one.
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
~4 MOA, give or take?
Yeah, that's about right. I had a few three-shot groups on a cold barrel that would have gone 2.5 or so MOA. This pic was 80 or so rounds in, and I was not letting it cool beyond the time taken to walk down and slap on new S&S stickers.

I was really surprised that the heat did not cause a shift in POI with all the crap I have clamped to the barrel.

I've not tried decent loads in the gun. I just can't bring myself to go from $.30 per round to a buck plus.

With a decent rest from bags, with premium ammo, maybe this thing could do even better. This is better than I was expecting.
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Very cool setup with the Aimpoint
I wanted the longer tube for a two-ring set-up, expecting to really bang the snot out of this thing. The rail added a lot of weight up front, so I swapped the AK74 style brake for a much lighter bird-cage style. That helped a lot. The 9000 weighs next to nothing. I went with the Aimpoint to deal with the heat of the rail; I'm guessing the cheap knock-offs will get cooked.
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbed77 View Post
My 7.62x39mm Saiga will shoot 2 - 2.5 MOA easily. I just have to do my part.
Same here - My SLG-21 Saiga performs similarly in the 2-2.5 MOA neighborhood.

I actually prefer the AK sights over the AR (though I'm using EOtech and Aimpoints on my ARs now, but still iron sights on my AKs).

Both my Romak WUM-1 and Romy G conversion both don't do much worse than 4 MOA. I can do worse , but the rifles hold steady.

My Romak WUM-2 performs the worst of the collection - 4+ MOA, keyholing ...
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:46 PM   #10
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this thread just goes to show it's all about managing expectations.

someone expected barn doors and got 4 MOA, and is super happy
someone else expected 1 MOA and got 2.5 MOA, and is disappointed
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Old August 26, 2014, 10:51 PM   #11
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I also prefer the AK's irons over the AR's, for both the fighting and the hunting role. Aperture sights are great for the target range with contrasting color targets in good light, but looking through a little peep hole is not good for low light and targets that blend with the background or are in shadow.
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Old August 26, 2014, 11:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
this thread just goes to show it's all about managing expectations.

someone expected barn doors and got 4 MOA, and is super happy
someone else expected 1 MOA and got 2.5 MOA, and is disappointed
I guess I'm exited about the 4 MOA because I suck at shooting without a decent rest. I also did some groups at the same session with a built magnum research 10/22, Tony Kid Barrel, Leopold VXlll, VQ trigger group. This rig shoots .3 MOA from a good rest with bags. I could not get it to group much tighter than this AK from my tailgate, in the wind, with a pot of coffee in my gut.

This felt like a miracle. Now I feel challenged to see what it can do, and will report back soon.
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Old Yesterday, 01:16 AM   #13
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My MAK 90 which I think have the best triggers out of AKs shoots 2 inchs at 100 but if i scoped it and put it in a snipers hand i think 1.25 with the right ammo would not be unreasonable. most those who claim that they are not accurate have never shot one. Even my draco is suprisingly accurate shooting at popcans from 20 to 50 yards.
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Old Yesterday, 06:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Compared to oft-repeated jokes or bad LGS counter advice, AK's are accurate and AR's are reliable. At least if you do your part in operation and parts/rifle/ammo acquisition and care
This is truth
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM   #15
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The Polish milled receiver AKs were so nice as i can remember . The best builts so far in my opinion.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM   #16
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In many cases, firearms are only as good as the owner/operator. There are too many guns that get a bad rep just because people don't know how to use, improve, or care for them. None more apparent than the AK-47. Also their reputation as a tough rifle makes some people careless when handling them, so they get incredibly dirty and thrown around.
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Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM   #17
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4MOA is pretty typical from an AK.

I agree the sights aren't bad at all. They are very fast close up (ignore the rear and use the front sight ears) and work decent for more distant targets too.

BSW
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 AM   #18
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Ak rifles are adequate with regard to accuracy for most hunting situations. When would I shy away? Well if you are in open country where a 400 yd shot in failing light is very possible for example. Thats for hunting. There are just much better tools available. A good fisherman ties a good knot because he wants to catch the fish. In warfare, the AK rifle has more than enough empirical data to prove its effectiveness.
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Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM   #19
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My experience over the years with several of the stamped receiver AKM style rifles is that most of them are MOPP (minute of pie plate) rifles with 10-shot groups at 100 yards as the measure. Even with the aid of optics, the biggest hindrance here is the ammo.

Most people buy AKs to have something that is relatively cheap to shoot, reliable, and packs a good amount of firepower. We buy the cheap ammo, then our human nature kicks in and we criticize it's performance. On the other side of the coin, who wants to spend $1/round to lob bullets out of an AK? Is there ever a steady enough supply of that fodder for the results to be relevant or worthwhile over the years of ownership?

To muddy up the waters even more, some AKs seem to prefer certain bullet weights over others. I've had rifles that simply loved Golden Tiger, while others wouldn't shoot it worth squat and preferred the heavier SP loads.

As Taliv said, managing expectations is an important component.
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #20
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I'm not that good of a shot but I get a decent group at 100yds with my IZ-132.
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Old Yesterday, 11:34 AM   #21
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Now not trying to brag and all but 80 yards open sight Bulgarian ak74 shot a baby hog in a moving truck at night then hit two other pigs. Shot both M16 and AK74 i would say that under 150 yards both are equal in accuracy
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Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM   #22
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Those Golden Bear SP should do fine for white tails. SP is about the only option for hunting unless you want to pay $1 a round for PDX1

+1 to loving my Saiga's irons over my AR's.
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Package View Post
Now not trying to brag and all but 80 yards open sight Bulgarian ak74 shot a baby hog in a moving truck at night then hit two other pigs. Shot both M16 and AK74 i would say that under 150 yards both are equal in accuracy
Dang! How did that baby hog get into the moving truck?! Hope the round didn't overpenetrate and punch a hole in the sheet metal...
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Old Yesterday, 02:49 PM   #24
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I polished the guts and magazine lips of my Polish under-folder and it really helped. Plus lots of trigger work...
This is with iron sights at 100 yards. But only with this ONE type of ammo. The groups are double, triple or four times as large with other types of ammo. So AKs can be ammo picky.


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Old Yesterday, 04:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
My 7.62x39mm Saiga will shoot 2 - 2.5 MOA easily. I just have to do my part.
Same here, both with my personally converted Saiga as well as my SGL-21.

But more importantly, they'll both ring torso targets at 300 yards, easily.
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