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Old July 11, 2011, 10:26 PM   #301
ifit
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ignition not sure with others but mine is very heavy. im surpised with your norinco trigger being tight, i had 2 mak90s, and have one 84s1 and from the factory they are one of the best triggers on an ak. but if anything the tapco g2 are very very nice just put one on my psl and what a difference. did not know they made timmney trigges for the ak.

heres a side by side pic, vz08 on left and czvz on right, notice the sear spring on the o8 has double, as for the czvz has one, so im assuming this may contribute to the heavy trigger pull,
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Old July 11, 2011, 11:08 PM   #302
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ifit that is an interesting photo. I wouldn't think century would have a non czech spring so is the czvz spring a different orignal military design or did they cut the right leg off the spring? Maybe it is just the photo but the czvz spring leg looks more narrow too.

I might buy another spring just to hack it like the one on the right to see what it feels like. (edit) just went to checkpoint and the spring looks like the czvz for $10. Is there any reason it wouldn't work in a vz2008?

I would describe my 08 trigger as somewhat heavy but it has very little creep and breaks cleanly. Plus it has a light aroma and a delightful boutique
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Old July 12, 2011, 01:20 AM   #303
ifit
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to be honest dont know why it is. but i prefer the czvz trigger very light pull as compared. maybe thats why i have the plastic trigger, probably break if mine had the double sear spring, the vz08 has a steel trigger.
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Old July 12, 2011, 07:51 AM   #304
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ifit that would make sense but this is the list of compliant parts from the czechpoint site and the spring is not listed. Ergo it must be original milsurp?? I might have to order one to see if it works. Might not because of the disconnector??

- sear
- disconnector
- trigger
- follower
- floor plate
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Old July 12, 2011, 10:27 AM   #305
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Quote:
ifit that would make sense but this is the list of compliant parts from the czechpoint site and the spring is not listed. Ergo it must be original milsurp?
I don't know whether or not it's mil-surp, but the trigger feather spring is not a 922r counted part so the origin doesn't matter.

Here is an excellent website for checking compliance parts for various rifles.

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Old July 13, 2011, 12:07 PM   #306
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Yes, as I noted in Post #296, the Century uses both sides of the spring, which contact a sear which is 4-5 times wider than the one used on the
CZ-VZ. Since the striker used on both models is identical and has the same size contact surface with the sear, I wonder what the reason is for the wider sear?

Cary
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Old July 13, 2011, 12:58 PM   #307
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Quote:
I wonder what the reason is for the wider sear?
Probably just for redundancy (really for the spring, not the sear). Just speculation, but I figure that CZ/D-Technik decided that the added redundancy/ruggedness isn't worth the inferior trigger weight and chopped half the spring and part of the sear.

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Old July 13, 2011, 05:34 PM   #308
Bennybone
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Alright, honestly... My reason for sale is I am frustrated with the accuracy of the gun(s).

I am interested in constructive discussion (we don't all have to agree) without any hurt feelings.

I have tried 3 different scope setups and most recently I spent the money to have the siderail installed thinking that it would be the most stable platform for achieving max accuracy.

Im at 4 MOA on average at 100 yards.

This is un-sat

So I figured I would sale it and get an AR-15 .223 with a 20 inch bull barrel, free floated for about the same money.

BUT

I came from the .223 land and the energy down range at 100 and 150 yards is less than the 7.62x39mm, so in essence I may be more accurate but not necessarily more effective. I am a hunter not a paper puncher...

Here is MY minimum expectation from the VZ58 platform:

The first shot out of a cold barrel should be dead on, each time every time.

The gun should be able to shoot standard ammo (wolf / golden tiger / herters / silver bear) at the 2 - 2 1/2 MOA level.

Certainly this isn't asking too much.....

First let me say, I should apologize for a statement I made long ago to another forum member. He stated that a Century VZ2008 should be as accurate IF not more accurate than a D-Technik.

I dismissed him, mostly because I felt my gun cost more and thinking (not knowing) that a chrome lined barrel should be more accurate.

Well.... All my recent reading indicates that chrome lined barrels are NOT more accurate.

Additionally the century barrels are a bit longer than the VZ58 barrel, negligable but longer none the less...

I have owned both types (D-Tech and CAI) and in my experience they are exactly the same in accuracy.

I have only shot Wolf and Herters ammo, exclusively the 124gr JHP (military classic round). Remember hunting not paper punching meaning this is why I haven't shot FMJ or soft points....

My research indicates that all imported ammo may not be consistent in the powders charge yeilding inconsistent POI. I had assumed that this is the limitation and that I would be unable to overcome this hence my move to sale

BUT again where am I going?

My thinking going in was I want a gun that would be a Hog killer from a 100 yards and in, multiple dead animals when I run into a pack of them

Back to my list however:

My first shot out of a stone cold barrel, winter / fall / spring / summer is a crap shoot. Half the time it isn't on the target, where is it? The is with both the VZ58 and CAI.... Second Third Fourth etc... are all grouped and on target with same POA.

And I don't think I am accurate at 100 yards, again ammo? Shooter? Both?

So this is what I need from you all:

A sanity check !!!

Do your first shots consistently impact where you expect in regards to shots 2 / 3 / 4 / 5?

Who is handloading? What is your most accurate load (powder type and bullet) and post the targets of the groupings if you have em !

Where can the dies and brass be sourced and how much are they?

If I were to handload I would go with the Hornady V-MAX round do all agree this would be the best candadite for accuracy? If not what others?

I am open to your theories, I have a video camera and I have acess to a Dtechnik and a CAI to do side by side comparisons. But I need ideas because going to the range and shooting both I can tell you is nearly identical 3 - 5 MOA at 100 yards.....

I am willing to stick with the VZ platform and 7.62x39mm cartridge if there is some hope of becoming more accurate and more consistent on the first shot AND overall.

Im no match shooter and won't claim to be BUT with a bolt action I can put a group inside of a Quarter (25 cents) with my bolt action .270.....

HELP!!!

Last edited by Bennybone; July 13, 2011 at 10:13 PM.
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Old July 17, 2011, 07:23 AM   #309
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Bennybone:
Since no one else has responded, I'll offer my opinion. I'm certainly not an expert in regards to your accuracy questions, but like you, I do read a lot, and can pass on what I have read on various forums and (more importantly) magazine articles by professional gun & ammo testing writers. Please forgive the randomness of my reply to your points.

First of all, I think you are expecting too much from your VZ(s), especially with the ammo you are using. You say you are getting an average of 4 MOA using wolf / golden tiger / herters / silver bear ammo, but are expecting 2 - 2 1/2 MOA. You admit to having concerns with imported ammo having inconsistent powder measures. Have you tried using USA made commercial ammo, either match or hunting grade? Either should have more consistent powder measure than the cheaper Russian brands you mentioned. It would also be a quicker than experimenting with handloads.

Second, you should bear in mind that whether its a D-Technik or Century rifle, you are still shooting what was originally a 1950's Assault Rifle, with its inherent limitations such as a heavy trigger, short barrel, loose chamber & rifling tolerances, etc. A more modern / commercial rifle should have tighter tolerances, better trigger, etc. leading to better inherent accuracy. I suggest doing research as to whether a heavy or match-barreled 7.62X39 AR or perhaps a recent production model Ruger Mini-30 will give you the < 2 inch MOA you seek, especially with American commercial ammo. Both are easy to accessorize and are optics-ready.

Before giving up on your VZ, check the tightness of your scope mount and ring screws, to eliminate them as an issue. Since that 1st shot is completely off the target to where you can't find it, shoot at a closer distance until you CAN find it. At least that way you can quantify the problem. I also suggest going back to the iron sights, to see if your 1st shot POI is still off from the 2nd-5th shots, like it is when you use the scope.

I don't know if the VZ platform in general has the accuracy you desire (see my next post). My VZ 2008 seems to have a relatively consistent but wide POI at 25 yds. If you do decide to sell your VZ 2008, let me know. I'm only about 200 miles away

Cary
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Old July 17, 2011, 11:17 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cchiang1 View Post
Bennybone:
Since no one else has responded, I'll offer my opinion. I'm certainly not an expert in regards to your accuracy questions, but like you, I do read a lot, and can pass on what I have read on various forums and (more importantly) magazine articles by professional gun & ammo testing writers. Please forgive the randomness of my reply to your points.

First of all, I think you are expecting too much from your VZ(s), especially with the ammo you are using. You say you are getting an average of 4 MOA using wolf / golden tiger / herters / silver bear ammo, but are expecting 2 - 2 1/2 MOA. You admit to having concerns with imported ammo having inconsistent powder measures. Have you tried using USA made commercial ammo, either match or hunting grade? Either should have more consistent powder measure than the cheaper Russian brands you mentioned. It would also be a quicker than experimenting with handloads.

Second, you should bear in mind that whether its a D-Technik or Century rifle, you are still shooting what was originally a 1950's Assault Rifle, with its inherent limitations such as a heavy trigger, short barrel, loose chamber & rifling tolerances, etc. A more modern / commercial rifle should have tighter tolerances, better trigger, etc. leading to better inherent accuracy. I suggest doing research as to whether a heavy or match-barreled 7.62X39 AR or perhaps a recent production model Ruger Mini-30 will give you the < 2 inch MOA you seek, especially with American commercial ammo. Both are easy to accessorize and are optics-ready.

Before giving up on your VZ, check the tightness of your scope mount and ring screws, to eliminate them as an issue. Since that 1st shot is completely off the target to where you can't find it, shoot at a closer distance until you CAN find it. At least that way you can quantify the problem. I also suggest going back to the iron sights, to see if your 1st shot POI is still off from the 2nd-5th shots, like it is when you use the scope.

I don't know if the VZ platform in general has the accuracy you desire (see my next post). My VZ 2008 seems to have a relatively consistent but wide POI at 25 yds. If you do decide to sell your VZ 2008, let me know. I'm only about 200 miles away

Cary
Cary thanks for the response, I understand what you are saying about the weapon's limitations however I have the following opinion to add to that.

With regards to the barrel/chamber tolerances and trigger designs etc. With the VZ2008 these should all be "modern" technologies and materials in use, granted the "blueprint" is 1958 but not the components...

Reloading is time consuming but for my use, if I can get the desired consistency then it makes the journey worth the effort.

and as you will see below, it is closer than I had first thought.....

Results of this weekends ammo test below:

I forgot my video camera and I had a limited amount of daylight when I began so the "production" is low rate here guys but I take it you will get the jist.

Shooting position was seated with no sandbags or rest, no wind.



The guns, D-Technik Military Classic with Czech muzzle brake and CAI VZ2008 with Aimpoint PRO and Dlask Arms Flash hider, FAB Defense tactical kit.



Here is the ammo, DISREGARD the blue and white ammo, I didnt have time to shoot it as planned.
Hornady SST 123gr steel case (33.00 for 50 rounds) Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP (5.50 for 20 rounds) and Herters 154gr SP (5.50 for 20 rounds)



In the photos if you see CAI, no muzzle brake, irons it is referring to me shooting the VZ2008 in this configuration



Here we go !!!

Hornady SST ammunition:





Wolf MC ammunition:





Herters SP ammunition:





Lastly I shot 5 rounds of the Hornady from 100 yards laying pront with the CAI VZ2008, Aimpoint 1x magnification and Dlask Flash hider



Next tests will be in August with handloads and 2x-6x scope and NEA heavy brake.

I hope to get in the 2 MOA range consitently , To Be Continued....
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Old July 18, 2011, 07:30 AM   #311
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Benny I think you have proven that ammo matters especially with the CAI,Red Dot, Flash hider, hornady group. . As bad as I shoot I would be proud of any of those groups. Even your worst seems to be with 3 inch groups.
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Old July 18, 2011, 08:18 AM   #312
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Roc -

I guess you could say I am halfway there....

I want 2 2 1/2 inch (MOA), i know they aren't the same , groups at 100 yards!

If I get a decent sight picture from the tactical mount off the CSA optics mount and find a pet load with the Hornady bullets this might be within grasp, I would be the main factor at that point....

BB
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:17 AM   #313
cchiang1
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Benny:
At what distance were you shooting? I agree that the Hornady (American?) ammo seemed to give the best results.

Cary
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:30 AM   #314
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Conclusion Re: Need Help Diagnosing VZ 2008 Problem, Posts #286, 292

Today I used a file and rounded off the corner of the tab, as suggested by Dave McFaul in post # 295. My bolt carrier now moves smoothly ALL THE TIME, regardless of the position of the safety lever. Thank you for your help, Dave!

Cary

Last edited by cchiang1; July 19, 2011 at 12:33 AM. Reason: Correcting title
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Old July 19, 2011, 05:54 AM   #315
cchiang1
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D-Technik and Century VZ Trigger Pull Weights Needed

Can some one (or even better, several of you) who owns a trigger pull weight gauge measure the poundage on their CZ/D-Technik and/or Century rifles? The questions raised in Posts 301-307 got me to experiment with the spring in my VZ 2008, but I didn't measure my trigger pull weight beforehand to get a baseline to compare with. I realize that one can use a coat hanger, a plastic bag, and cans of food to approximate, but I'd rather have more accurate data to compare with. Thanks.

BTW, if anyone intends to buy the trigger spring from Czechpoint (called a trigger mechanism feather, here: http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/produc...anism-feather/ ) with the intention of cutting off one of the spring legs, note that the one in their picture has only one leg (I assume the other was cut off by D-Technik?), and not the standard two-legged spring commonly found in spare parts kits or the Century guns. Please plan accordingly.

Cary
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Old July 19, 2011, 07:36 AM   #316
Bennybone
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Cary -

I was shooting from 40m approximately, glad you got your rifle functional.

You owe Dave a beer when he comes down to Austin

BB

Last edited by Bennybone; July 19, 2011 at 09:03 AM.
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Old July 19, 2011, 10:21 PM   #317
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The 2x-6x 28mm scope arrived today.

Pic of Aimpoint vs Tactical Scope (length). The length of the tact scope is 6.9 inches.



Tactical scope mounted with 1 inch medium rings, I could go a tad further forward but as it sits the eye relief is PERFECT with the FAB stock cheek riser.



The reticle is non-illumiated. It is a clear picture given that you are focusing on proper distance, in other words if you 6x mag a close object its blurry but when fixed on a distance object its clear and vice versa.



Going to the range tomorrow to site it in and see if the group size improves with Hornady factory ammo.

Also UPS delivered the reloading components so it will be a busy month before the final handloads and scoped VZ test.

BB
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Old July 20, 2011, 09:43 AM   #318
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Good to hear that it all worked out for you.


Here is a build I just finished for a client. It'll likely be my last personal VZ build as we're kicking out our new AR platform. Time to shift direction.


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Old July 20, 2011, 12:22 PM   #319
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Bennybone, I apologize for being so late to comment, not ignoring you, just had a scratched cornea making looking into a 'puter screen intolerable. First, I believe you are on the right track WRT ammo. Without good ammo (that "suits" the rifle), no rifle will print well. Handloading would certainly help (I, too, have tossed about the idea, but am yet undecided), and likely yield the greatest accuracy, however I don't believe that it is absolutely necessary. I can achieve about 2MOA groups (average, not best) using moderate-good quality ammunition (Barnaul or US Manufactured ammo). That said, yours might not be as tolerant of some types of ammunition as mine. In short, I wouldn't yet give up on it.

BTW, good luck finding Hornady V-Max bullets, I think they were discontinued (which is most of the reason I don't yet handload for the cartridge).

cchiang1, glad that your problems were resolved. Dave, thanks again for lending a little helpful advice.
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Old July 20, 2011, 01:35 PM   #320
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Dave -

Goodluck in your ventures, may fortune be on your side.

Check back on us from time to time.

BB
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Old July 20, 2011, 02:47 PM   #321
killertom
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My entry submission

Hi!

I'd like to join the club, here's my Vz. 58. The reason for the cone flash hider is that this is a Vz. 58Pi, which is the version intended to be used with night vision optics. It also has a siderail on the left side of the receiver and a bipod that can be mounted on the bayonet lug. All original military issue, the receiver still has the markings for full auto, and the selector switch turns to the auto position, but of course it's been modified to fire semi only. Everything you see in the pic I got with the gun, for the sum of $296, including 100 rounds of ammo. As I live in Hungary the U.S. restrictions on barrel length and usage of former full-auto receivers doesn't exist here, so these guns are pretty much surpus around here, with minimal modifications required to make them civilian legal.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 201107201174.jpg (241.8 KB, 50 views)

Last edited by killertom; July 20, 2011 at 04:05 PM. Reason: More info
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Old July 20, 2011, 04:30 PM   #322
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welcome killertom, and of course awesome vz as i beleive that is as close as owning an original military vz for a civilian anywhere, and for $296 you guys are lucky
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Old July 20, 2011, 05:17 PM   #323
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welcome killertom, and of course awesome vz as i beleive that is as close as owning an original military vz for a civilian anywhere, and for $296 you guys are lucky
Thank you for the welcome ifit! I'm not sure about the we're lucky part though, I had to wait almost a year to get the license to actually buy the darn thing... So although we don't have as many technical requirements to adhere to, we have our fair share of nonsense to put up with...
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Old July 20, 2011, 06:41 PM   #324
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killertom:
Welcome to the club! What is the capacity of that large magazine (on the left in your pic)? And can you tell me if the side mount on your receiver looks just like the one sold by Czechpoint here: http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/produc...ver-side-rail/

Thanks.

Cary
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Old July 20, 2011, 06:45 PM   #325
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Hi Cary,

The mags are all 30 rounders, the one on the left just looks bigger on the picture.
The siderail is very different than the Czechpoint one. On mine it is considerably longer, extending back by the side of the buttstock for 2-3cm, and is held on by 4 rivets from the inside of the receiver. I'll make a pic tomorrow if you'd like me to.
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