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Old March 17, 2015, 12:14 PM   #1
perldog007
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Non Historical Guns, why not more of them?

I think it was over at some other gun forum I read a post no Stupid Americans! and how our dumb selves are totally responsible for Pietta's creative interpretation of history and historically correct arms, to wit the Pietta 1851 .44 Navy in steel or brass seemed to have set this fellow off.

I actually might own that engraved blued stupid American special Pietta 1851 .44 Navy thing some day. If the rifling was reported to be friendlier with conicals I'd own one right now. For 30 grains of pyrodex and a ball or 20 and a cone I'd be happy with it and would promise not to time travel and get busted with a wrong gun....

I would like to see more c&b revolvers that aren't historically accurate.

How about a New model Cadet with a heavy frame NMA 6" bbl, target sights, and bored to .31? That would make a fine alternative to a .22 lr handgun and be all kinds of fun to my mind.

Speaking of which, a New Model Navy Caliber with target sights would be appreciated, and one with a longer 'buntline' or 'buffalo' barrel, say 10" for serious varmint/target work.

Now let's talk heresy, what about some modern sighting systems on a C&B?

I caused an apoplexy messing with a re-enactor acquaintance. I was invited to a paper punchin' with some re-enactors. No dress up or drill, just plinking with revolvers.

So I put a universal mount and laser pointer on my trigger guard of the NMA and emailed a pic asking if my set up was okay with the Union re-enactors because I didn't know if it was a confederate laser sight or not...

Man, no sense of humor the guy still won't talk to me.

Seriously, can we figure out how to keep a scope still and serviceable on a BP revolver? I can see an easy place to stick a mount on the colts... Why not pointers? I have used a laser sight on an air rifle to dispatch running vermin and I'm not Quigley down under or even Private Benjamin with a rifle...


Does anyone else think any other non historical patterns would be fun/useful/desireable ? If so what?

I love the history and the historical reproductions, I'm just not against 'non-correct' guns and like some of them. Wish we had a couple or three more readily available.
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Old March 17, 2015, 12:25 PM   #2
Crawdad1
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That's why this hobby started. People only had the originals before Val Forgett and a few others decided that there was a demand for these weapons to be built along with all of their spare parts and such. But, reenactors always drove this hobby forward and now, currently, cowboy action shooters and they are in the driver's seat so the manufacturers cater to them. And they don't like, to say the least, radical.

I agree with you somewhat, not that I would get that radical, but I would like to see a '51 Colt in naval caliber with a dovetailed front blade or post. It was done back when so why not now?

But there has to be a demand, try finding a Rogers & Spencer, or some of the Confederate models which didn't sell well so they dropped them.

Last edited by Crawdad1; March 17, 2015 at 12:31 PM.
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Old March 17, 2015, 01:21 PM   #3
Mike OTDP
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There's not that much market for non-replicas outside the United States.

The rest of the world shoots under MLAIC rules, which are pretty strict about firearms being replicas. There's a bit of a debate going on about how precisely a repro of a non-mass-produced original (e.g. a Pennsylvania long rifle) needs to copy a specific original firearm, but the guns must conform to the basic designs of the period.

Here in the USA, most BP shooting is oriented toward either historical shooting of some sort, or hunting. The only other option is some of the NMLRA events.
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Old March 17, 2015, 05:19 PM   #4
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I'd like to see Pietta produce a 16" barrel for their 1851 steel Navy .36 (they do produce a 12" barrel) so I do not run afoul of our friends at BATFE when I want to use a .38 conversion cylinder and a shoulder stock with cowboy heeled-bullet loads. Don't want to go to "prizzen" for an SBR.

I know it won't be a tackdriver, but should be a hoot to shoot.

The BP C&B purists are like a diehard 1911 guy still using the original anemic GI sights and none of the A1 improvements or calibers other than .45 ACP.

Whatever trips your trigger...

Jim
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Old March 17, 2015, 05:57 PM   #5
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So my replica isn't "authentic..." It shoots well and I enjoy using it. If that makes me a "stupid American" my only reply is by who's standards. I figure the ppl that used the originals were innovators that would change any part of their weapon just for a little bit of advantage. Something like the c&b weapons I possess.

The whole argument reminds me of a boyfriend I had once... He was very proud of his "perfect" condition Datsun 280Z. So much so he wouldn't allow you in the antique if you had your shoes on. The engine smoked, half the time you had to push start it and the suspension so messed up it wouldn't stay on the road over 50 MPH. But the paint was perfect and the interior immaculate.

(I dumped him after the 2nd date.)
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Old March 17, 2015, 06:37 PM   #6
Malachi Leviticus Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officers'Wife View Post
...I figure the ppl that used the originals were innovators that would change any part of their weapon just for a little bit of advantage. ...
+1

I'm not sure everyone keeps in perspective that in their day, the originals of the replica firearms we are discussing were cutting edge technology.

If they could have figured out how to add a 30 round mag with a collapsible stock and a laser sight, they would have done it in a heartbeat.

So the relatively minor variances that stay within the technological capabilities of the period shouldn't even horrify the over zealous purists really.
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Old March 17, 2015, 08:10 PM   #7
Doak
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Sad, ain't it? My stuff's hysterically correct an' your's isn't...na na naaaa na naaaa na. Sounds like a bunch o' 5yr olds.

They're weapons folks, not instruments of peer pressure. It's not who's right, it's who's left.

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Old March 17, 2015, 11:27 PM   #8
Crawdad1
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Well, go ahead and do it. There's nothing stopping you modifying it any way you want. But there are organizations a lot of people want to be a part of and participate in and compete against others that have rules and regulations against these modifications.
And to even have a hope of competing against some of these people you have to spend a lot of time practicing with the original sights and the original sight picture these weapons were born with. And practice a lot.
Just don't join them. That's all. Have at it.
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Old March 18, 2015, 12:12 AM   #9
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My SAA has (gasp) a safety. It is also (double gasp) a buntline special 15". When I bought it it had a scope and a bandoleer. I pulled the scope because it kept shooting loose and then the bandoleer when it blocked the iron sights. If only someone would make a buntline special with shoulder stock factory built as a cartridge gun. I also would like to see some modernized cap and ball guns. A cap and ball built like a hand ejector would be really neat too, now that's radical thinking.
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Old March 18, 2015, 07:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawdad1 View Post
Well, go ahead and do it. There's nothing stopping you modifying it any way you want. But there are organizations a lot of people want to be a part of and participate in and compete against others that have rules and regulations against these modifications.
And to even have a hope of competing against some of these people you have to spend a lot of time practicing with the original sights and the original sight picture these weapons were born with. And practice a lot.
Just don't join them. That's all. Have at it.

I guess in the end it's all about use isn't it. You want to be able to
participate and compete. More power to you. My motivation is to put a lead ball through a (hopefully) edible target at x number of yards without upsetting the delicate sensitivities of the great white father in Indianapolis. A better sighting system may destroy your use but it enhances mine. Once again, being labeled stupid because I prefer to bring home tender venison or rabbit for dinner rather than a piece of paper with holes in it for bragging rights kind of makes me wonder of the collective intelligence of the organizations involved. But, I live by the theory that freedom means the duty to allow others to do (and label) things I don't particularly approve of. So, if your org wants to label me as the stupid ant for the modern back sight on my c&b revolver... the grasshoppers can have at it.
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Last edited by Officers'Wife; March 18, 2015 at 09:01 AM.
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Old March 18, 2015, 08:34 AM   #11
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So someone should start a thread. Some thing like, of the forum members actively using the Black Powder section of THR, how many own and use their weapons for non competitive non hunting shooting, for hunting only, for competition only, for a mix of all of the above, own and collect but shoot less than 4 times a year in any capacity.
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Old March 18, 2015, 12:52 PM   #12
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Isn't the sighting system on the Ruger Old Army the same as on their Blackhawks?

Should be a scope mount or two out there that would fit it. I seem to recall that the TC folks make a mount for their LER scopes that replaced the rear sight of the Black hawk.


One of you machist types should be able to whip up something that fits say the Pietta NMA fairly easily using as existing Weaver rail laying around the shop.......for that matter how hard would it be to drill and tap the barrel of any BP revolver to affix and over the counter rail of some type?

Wow a Scope and laser pointer on a NMA......and an engraved name tag with something like "Vera" on it.......

Use rings that have rails for mounting your light and laser.....and a hunter orange strobe light!

I can not decide. One moment I want to be helpful and the next I want to poke fun. It's fiddler crab season.....

-kBob
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Old March 18, 2015, 02:05 PM   #13
whughett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kBob View Post
Isn't the sighting system on the Ruger Old Army the same as on their Blackhawks?

Should be a scope mount or two out there that would fit it. I seem to recall that the TC folks make a mount for their LER scopes that replaced the rear sight of the Black hawk.


One of you machist types should be able to whip up something that fits say the Pietta NMA fairly easily using as existing Weaver rail laying around the shop.......for that matter how hard would it be to drill and tap the barrel of any BP revolver to affix and over the counter rail of some type?

Wow a Scope and laser pointer on a NMA......and an engraved name tag with something like "Vera" on it.......

Use rings that have rails for mounting your light and laser.....and a hunter orange strobe light!

I can not decide. One moment I want to be helpful and the next I want to poke fun. It's fiddler crab season.....

-kBob
Nineteenth century firearm married to a 21st century optic system would that be an "Oxy Moron".

Come to think of it in the late eighties I had a TC Cherokee with an original style aimpoint mounted on a weaver rail. Local gunsmith modified the rail to fit . The Cherokee had such a low stock I could not get my cheek down enough to use the open sites with any kind of accuracy. The primer overflash raised hob with anodized finish on mount and aimpoint housing.
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Old March 18, 2015, 02:34 PM   #14
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"Navy" 1851 in .44 (instead of original .36) is not that radical (to me) considering it was customary to take a shot-out black powder barrel and recut the rifling, rebore it to a larger caliber and recherry the bullet mold.

You want radical? I would like to see a Remington 1858 style revolver with a forward cylinder collar (like the BP Webleys) to keep fouling off cylinder pin.
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Old March 18, 2015, 03:44 PM   #15
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Carl, see page 49, #1220, THR Remington 1858 Club.

Kindest Regards,
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Old March 18, 2015, 04:25 PM   #16
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I'd like to see a 5 shot .44 cal shorty...
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Old March 18, 2015, 04:35 PM   #17
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Well, they upped the '51 from .36 to .44; i'd like to see them up the 1860 to .50 or even .54.... and everything stainless steel while we're at it.
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Old March 18, 2015, 08:14 PM   #18
rodwha
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Agreed! A .50 or .54 cal revolver would be awesome too! I just ain't sending off my Ruger with a $1200 check to convert it...
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Old March 18, 2015, 11:31 PM   #19
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How about an 1873 SAA cap and ball revolver..I would be willing to bet that there were few 1873's that were converted back to C&B.

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Old March 19, 2015, 01:04 AM   #20
4v50 Gary
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Ruger Old Army is pretty non-authentic. I love mine.

I think the Europeans would be open to non-authentic cap 'n ball revolvers too.
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Old March 19, 2015, 09:08 AM   #21
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Although they are almost always referred to as "non-historical" (downright unmentionable on some traditionalist BP forums), I am a big fan of the Numrich Arms / Hopkins & Allen under hammer rifles & pistols. Simple design, easy to maintain, and loads of fun to shoot.
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Old March 19, 2015, 10:41 AM   #22
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Makes me wonder if anyone outside of the USA buys those newer inline rifles? I wouldn't buy one.
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Old March 19, 2015, 10:56 AM   #23
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Never mind
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Old March 19, 2015, 10:57 AM   #24
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I almost bought a 30-30 lever gun assault rifle with a collapsible stock. Is that authentic?
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Old March 19, 2015, 11:55 AM   #25
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I almost bought a 30-30 lever gun assault rifle with a collapsible stock. Is that authentic?
Yes.

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