Quantcast
Corning for Cannons? Who else? CANNONMAN! - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Blackpowder Shooting

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 4, 2014, 03:04 PM   #1
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
Corning for Cannons? Who else? CANNONMAN!

As most, if not all of you know, cannon bp is about the size of coarse salt. Most of what I have found on corning is to measure screen holes per inch to determine desired size. I find that the size I am looking does not seem to exist. Screen seems to go from window size to 1/2" or greater. I really don't want chicken wire size BP. I can't seem to find a happy middle. I'm beginning to feel like that little girl lost in the woods who could only find porridge and beds that were too hot, too cold, too hard, too soft. Ideas? Also, I would really appreciate any info on specs on how to build the BP potency measuring device that many of you mentioned in earlier threads. I know I can build one, I just want to build one that renders "known" replicable results. It seems that to create pucks and then mill to desired size may be the best idea for a high grade BP. How would the milling be done in order to create desired cannon size without a lot of 1,2,3,4,F being created at the same time? Last, in order to really make this a pregnant thread, some use alcohol with water for up to three days post milling then dry, re-wet and corn. Why?
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 03:11 PM   #2
ClickClickD'oh
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 12, 2007
Location: Lewisville, Tx
Posts: 1,384
I know it's way off topic, but my sick little mind saw "Corning for Cannons" and thought this thread would be about the best places to put out deer corn in front of your cannon.
ClickClickD'oh is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 03:22 PM   #3
zxcvbob
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 15, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,967
How about 1/4" hardware cloth?
__________________
"Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" —Kenny Rogers
zxcvbob is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 03:22 PM   #4
whughett
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 26, 2008
Location: Rhode Island/Florida
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNONMAN View Post
As most, if not all of you know, cannon bp is about the size of coarse salt. Most of what I have found on corning is to measure screen holes per inch to determine desired size. I find that the size I am looking does not seem to exist. Screen seems to go from window size to 1/2" or greater. I really don't want chicken wire size BP. I can't seem to find a happy middle. I'm beginning to feel like that little girl lost in the woods who could only find porridge and beds that were too hot, too cold, too hard, too soft. Ideas? Also, I would really appreciate any info on specs on how to build the BP potency measuring device that many of you mentioned in earlier threads. I know I can build one, I just want to build one that renders "known" replicable results. It seems that to create pucks and then mill to desired size may be the best idea for a high grade BP. How would the milling be done in order to create desired cannon size without a lot of 1,2,3,4,F being created at the same time? Last, in order to really make this a pregnant thread, some use alcohol with water for up to three days post milling then dry, re-wet and corn. Why?
Kitchen strainers might be a good size mesh. The strainers come in a variety of sizes and shapes. I am referring to the ones used to strain gravies, sauces, broths ect. or to force tomatoes or other soft foods through.
__________________
Mousa: God must love crazy people.
Rambo: Why?
Mousa: He made so many of them.
Rambo III
whughett is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 04:12 PM   #5
vagunmonkey
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh View Post
I know it's way off topic, but my sick little mind saw "Corning for Cannons" and thought this thread would be about the best places to put out deer corn in front of your cannon.
I thought corn cob projectiles...
vagunmonkey is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 04:21 PM   #6
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
I am currently using a large kitchen strainer. It seems to be about 1/8 the size I am looking for. There exist a web site where a guy hunts deer with his cannon using 1" ball bearings. He also hunts feral cats with a mortar. The cloth idea... I fear a problem with absorbency and the holes in the cloth glogging and not having the shearing capabilities. But, thanks!
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 04:25 PM   #7
zxcvbob
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 15, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,967
??? Hardware cloth is a type of wire mesh screen.

You'll want to screen it 2 or three times, to separate out the fines and then to separate out the pieces that are still too big. You keep the ones in the middle. The fines and dust get recycled in the next batch, and the too-big ones get milled again.
__________________
"Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" —Kenny Rogers
zxcvbob is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 05:55 PM   #8
Officers'Wife
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 23, 2007
Location: A long way from heaven and too close to Chicago
Posts: 2,277
#8 Brass sieve 2.3mm

Another place to look is whole food stores that sell flour mills. They will often have sieves for various grades of cracked wheat and corn.
__________________
When it comes to coyotes,
I'm kind and forgiving.
But when they get in my chickens,
they are tired of living!

If you need this message in another language, move to a country that speaks it.
Officers'Wife is offline  
Old September 4, 2014, 07:08 PM   #9
TheRodDoc
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 4, 2010
Location: Iowa
Posts: 360
http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-mate...tainless-steel
TheRodDoc is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 09:09 AM   #10
25cschaefer
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
Posts: 800
Look at gold panning stuff, they have all sorts of sizes.
25cschaefer is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 12:31 PM   #11
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
Sorry about my grand ignorant response to hardware cloth. I'll put some ketchup on it and have it with my crow. Hey TheRodDoc! Great site! Thanks! The "chips", as they look to me, in cannon powder look like they are polished, as do the F's. My end product looks flat. I understand the why this look in smokeless but do not understand why in BP. Input please.
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 01:32 PM   #12
ofitg
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 17, 2010
Posts: 248
Cannonman, are you creating your pucks with a hydraulic press? Unless you're squeezing the internal voids out of the pucks, the granulation size is largely "cosmetic".

If you're numbers-oriented, the best technical info I have seen on the compression step came from a user named "cal50" in this Castboolits thread -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...artrides/page3

Unfortunately, it appears that he removed the photos of his setup.

Last edited by ofitg; September 5, 2014 at 02:02 PM.
ofitg is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 02:09 PM   #13
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
Interesting threads on pucks. I am seeing more and more of pucks being used and sold. not sure of the why's. Have not made any as of yet. Like the idea for several reasons. As always, thanks for any and all info.
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 02:42 PM   #14
ofitg
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 17, 2010
Posts: 248
The compression stage was a major advance in the 1800s. More energy packed into a given volume, and granulation sizes provided effective regulation of burning rates.

Of course, a lot of people can get by satisfactorily with uncompressed "pre-1800" powder. My interest in homemade BP is limited to percussion revolvers, and I'm satisfied with the performance of uncompressed powder.

Someday, when I have more time & money, I might buy a hydraulic press and "move forward" into the 19th Century
ofitg is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 04:14 PM   #15
Officers'Wife
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 23, 2007
Location: A long way from heaven and too close to Chicago
Posts: 2,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by ofitg View Post
The compression stage was a major advance in the 1800s. More energy packed into a given volume, and granulation sizes provided effective regulation of burning rates.

Of course, a lot of people can get by satisfactorily with uncompressed "pre-1800" powder. My interest in homemade BP is limited to percussion revolvers, and I'm satisfied with the performance of uncompressed powder.

Someday, when I have more time & money, I might buy a hydraulic press and "move forward" into the 19th Century
Why a press? A frame welded out of angle iron and a hydraulic jack would be close enough for government work. It would be the dies I'd be concern about. You wouldn't dare make them out of steel for fear of "sparking." I wonder how much compression PVC pipe would handle?
__________________
When it comes to coyotes,
I'm kind and forgiving.
But when they get in my chickens,
they are tired of living!

If you need this message in another language, move to a country that speaks it.
Officers'Wife is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 04:51 PM   #16
robhof
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 18, 2009
Location: Bowling Green Ky.
Posts: 825
robhof

There are high pressure rated pvc pipes, I've worked with 800 psi. pipes of 2" diameter for commercial A/c units. Don't know if 800 psi is high enough, but seems it would do serious compressing!
robhof is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 05:19 PM   #17
zxcvbob
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 15, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,967
Use brass pipe or aluminum, or a nonsparking stainless steel.

You might could use plain old steel pipe (hone it nice and smooth with a brake cylinder hone) and hardwood pistons.
__________________
"Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" —Kenny Rogers
zxcvbob is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 06:42 PM   #18
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
If I am studying the correct methodology I believe I need to be in the 5,000 psi range. Pucks for my cannons would save considerable time. And mess.
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 06:59 PM   #19
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
ofitg is right!

Hey thanks ofitg. I hope my milling class gets rescheduled before we move. I'd like to make pucks to specific size by milling aluminum. I am surprised that the 3" PVC can withstand the force. I believe I am elaborating your works here: "A 125 ton hydraulic will deliver 10,379 lbs to 6.6sq" or 3" PVC (sched 40 if purchased from Lowes) is delivering 1,560psi. Manufactured pucks are created circa 1200psi." Credit here to ofitg. Am I right that I am seeing pucks for many 50's in the BP section of several gun shops? Last, why corn then press if granulation size does not matter?
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 5, 2014, 09:35 PM   #20
Officers'Wife
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 23, 2007
Location: A long way from heaven and too close to Chicago
Posts: 2,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNONMAN View Post
Hey thanks ofitg. I hope my milling class gets rescheduled before we move. I'd like to make pucks to specific size by milling aluminum. I am surprised that the 3" PVC can withstand the force. I believe I am elaborating your works here: "A 125 ton hydraulic will deliver 10,379 lbs to 6.6sq" or 3" PVC (sched 40 if purchased from Lowes) is delivering 1,560psi. Manufactured pucks are created circa 1200psi." Credit here to ofitg. Am I right that I am seeing pucks for many 50's in the BP section of several gun shops? Last, why corn then press if granulation size does not matter?
Corning affects the surface area. A fine powder will have a greater surface area and burn faster. with corning the area is limited to the outside of the corn and burns slower.

One of my uncle's experiments just before he died was a "puck" as you call it the entire length of the charge and pierced in the center. The theory was as the inside burned the surface area would actually increase causing a uniform pressure throughout the ball's travel through the barrel. The test device was a .75 caliber double percussion rifle with 46 inch barrels. Unfortunately he never transcribed his "field notes" written in his undecipherable shorthand to his lab notes.
__________________
When it comes to coyotes,
I'm kind and forgiving.
But when they get in my chickens,
they are tired of living!

If you need this message in another language, move to a country that speaks it.
Officers'Wife is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 04:49 AM   #21
ofitg
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 17, 2010
Posts: 248
Quote:
Last, why corn then press if granulation size does not matter?
I'm not sure if I understand the question..... Brushhippie recently posted a video on making compressed powder (his first attempt) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Dg...ature=youtu.be

He ball-milled the ingredients together, moistened it up slightly, and then created a puck with his hydraulic press. Next he would grind/break up the puck and use screens to separate the various granulation sizes.

Assuming that he achieved the magic "1200 psi" threshold (he wasn't using a gauge), the sulfur should become "colloidal" - ie, fluid - at that pressure and glue everything together (so a dextrin binder is not needed).

Granulation size DOES regulate the burn rate with properly-compressed powder.
ofitg is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 07:43 AM   #22
Pete D.
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 13, 2010
Posts: 1,633
cloth

Go to McMaster-Carr. Search for "wire cloth". You will find what you want.
http://www.mcmaster.com/

or
http://www.mcmaster.com/#wire-cloth/=tlqpx6

Pete
Pete D. is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 12:25 PM   #23
ofitg
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 17, 2010
Posts: 248
Quote:
There are high pressure rated pvc pipes, I've worked with 800 psi. pipes of 2" diameter for commercial A/c units. Don't know if 800 psi is high enough, but seems it would do serious compressing!
I wish Cal50 hadn't removed the photos of his setup!

As I remember it, his PVC die was slit lengthwise on one side. He had a number of hose clamps wrapped around the outside of the die to contain the pressure.

He cranked the press up to the desired level of force (~10,000 pounds) and let it sit there squeezing the puck for 30 minutes.

After removing the die from the press, he would remove the hose clamps from the outside of the die. The lengthwise slit in the plastic allowed the puck to be easily removed.
ofitg is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 12:37 PM   #24
CANNONMAN
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 16, 2014
Posts: 131
The banding of the PVC makes a lot of sense. The no-longer-need-the-dextrin makes a lot of sense. Anyone know [brushippie] if the granulated puck has the polished appearance of store bought BP? Or anyone know why/how the polish is done? I know in smokeless it has a lot to do with burn rate. Same for BP? New batch of BP being made this weekend. That means you are all invited to come over Monday and shoot cannons and mortars.
CANNONMAN is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 02:48 PM   #25
Officers'Wife
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 23, 2007
Location: A long way from heaven and too close to Chicago
Posts: 2,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNONMAN View Post
The banding of the PVC makes a lot of sense. The no-longer-need-the-dextrin makes a lot of sense. Anyone know [brushippie] if the granulated puck has the polished appearance of store bought BP? Or anyone know why/how the polish is done? I know in smokeless it has a lot to do with burn rate. Same for BP? New batch of BP being made this weekend. That means you are all invited to come over Monday and shoot cannons and mortars.
Polish? You mean the graphite coating?
__________________
When it comes to coyotes,
I'm kind and forgiving.
But when they get in my chickens,
they are tired of living!

If you need this message in another language, move to a country that speaks it.
Officers'Wife is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.