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Old February 27, 2015, 11:58 PM   #1
ZVP
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Conversion cylinders Remington 1858's?

While reserching for Cylinders , I found a 5 and a 6 shot version.
I take it that the difference is between two patents?
There is also a ,45ACP, and astandard .45 LC. If you are supposed to keep using a Lead bullet, then you would need to shoot a .45ACPSWC bullet at target velocity,correct? Would pressures exceed the cylinders specifications using a .45ACPSWC?
I think the prudebt purchase would be the 5 shot .45 LC Cowboy load but the current .45 ACP Lead ball or SWC prices are much lower and a handloader could keep loads well under safe limits with .45 ACP cases a plenty!
The most sensible cylinder iss the 6 shot ACP one!
Please, and advice on this topic would be helpfull since I plan t convert my 5 1/2" '58. The gun is a beauty, it feels and shoots GREAT!
Secondly;
Are the Black Powder.45LC loads more powerful than the current batch of Smokeless CAS loads?
Thanks,
ZVP
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Old February 28, 2015, 01:35 AM   #2
RPRNY
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A full BP load of 35 grs FFFg and 250gr bullet is indeed more powerful than smokeless "cowboy" loads.

Whichever cartridge you choose, use a soft lead (BHN 8 - 10) bullet sized .002" over groove. In my Uberti, .454" is excellent whereas ".452 is poor with anything harder than swaged (BHN 7 -8) lead.

I am not definitive on the five vs six LC cylinder. There was a time when a six shot was slightly off bore to accommodate the cartridge and the five was on bore but I thought both Kirst and whatever Howell is called today, are now on bore six.

I think 45 acp on Trail Boss would be great, provided you use soft lead bullets sized no smaller than .452".
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Old February 28, 2015, 04:12 AM   #3
Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy

The diameter of the cylinder of the 1858 Remington will not allow six 45 Colt chambers to be bored straight through without the rims interfering with each other. Ken Howell solved this problem by angling the chambers 1/2 of one degree out at the rear. The idea of angled chambers was innovative enough that Howell was able to patent it. This type of conversion cylinder has a backing plate with multiple firing pins. The backing plate rotates with the cylinder. To reload you remove the cylinder from the gun and pop the backing plate off. Just like Clint Eastwood did. It is very quick and easy.

When I bought this type of conversion cylinders for my pair of Remingtons, they were being produced by Howell under the name R&D and sold exclusively by Taylors. No, the slight angle does not cause any problem when the bullet reaches the forcing cone.






A few years ago Howell sold the angled chambers patent to Taylors. Taylors has somebody else producing the cylinders now. Because of the patent, Taylors, the owner of the patent, is still the only company that can produce a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for the 1858 Remington.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/cartr...cylinders.html



Ken Howell started his own company to produce conversion cylinders, but because he does not own the patent for the angled chambers, he cannot produce a six shot, 45 Colt cylinder for the 1858 Remington. His 45 Colt Remington cylinders are five shot.

http://www.howelloldwestconversions....A5CDA64E86DF88


Howell does produce a six shot cylinder for the 1858 Remington, but it is chambered for the 44 Colt cartridge, not 45 Colt. Using this cylinder in the 1858 Remington requires using 44 Colt brass and either heeled bullets, or hollow based bullets that will expand and fill up the rifling. This cylinder does not accept 45 Colt cartridges.

http://www.howelloldwestconversions....A5CDA64E86DF88



Kirst cylinders are completely different, they employ a backing plate with only one firing pin that is attached to the frame and does not rotate. Kirst 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington are also five shot because of the rim diameter issue. Because the Kirst design uses a fixed backing plate, he also offers the option of adding a loading gate. A loading gate will not work with the R&D/Taylors/Howell style cylinders because the multi-firing pin backing plate rotates with the cylinder.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/1858-remington.html




All of these cylinders are rated for Smokeless 'Cowboy Loads', what ever that is, because there is no SAAMI standard for cowboy loads. Most specify 800 fps or less, but that is meaningless because it does not specify pressure. Some Cowboy Action shooters load their Smokeless loads ridiculously light, commercial cowboy loads are more powerful than these mouse farts.

My 45 Colt Black Powder loads are quite stout, with about 35 grains of FFg under a 250 grain bullet. So stout that I usually shoot 45 Schofield rounds in my Remingtons, with about 28 grains of FFg under a 200 grain bullet. With full power 45 Colt loads I find the grip shape of the Remington to be uncomfortable in recoil. Plus, I am not crazy about how thin the steel is where the loading lever pierces the frame of the 1858 Remington. For this reason, I designed the J/P-45 200 grain Big Lube bullet that I use in my Schofield loads.
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Old February 28, 2015, 07:06 AM   #4
OYE
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We found the 250 gr. bullets in the 45 LC shoot exceptionally high in both ours
that the sights were difficult to use at anything other than very short range.
200 gr. are much better . OYE
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Old February 28, 2015, 11:26 AM   #5
whughett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYE View Post
We found the 250 gr. bullets in the 45 LC shoot exceptionally high in both ours
that the sights were difficult to use at anything other than very short range.
200 gr. are much better . OYE
I was fortunate to acquire a polished stainless ROA from a forum member. Specifically for a R&D conversion cylinder. A bonus was this ROA had a high front sight, 7/16 high compared to the 1/4 on my other two. With a 35/250 45C the sights on this gun are adjustable to shoot to POI at almost any reasonable distance.

I have molds for other lighter 45 bullets, just like the oomph the heavy bullets give in terms of felt recoil.
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Old February 28, 2015, 09:42 PM   #6
Driftwood Johnson
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Quote:
We found the 250 gr. bullets in the 45 LC shoot exceptionally high in both ours
that the sights were difficult to use at anything other than very short range.
200 gr. are much better . OYE
How old are your Remmies?

I bought my old EuroArms Remmie back in 1975. In those days they had short front sights. So short that they tended to shoot high with Cap & Ball loads. Many years later, when I became interested in a conversion cylinder, I noticed that all the new Remmies I saw had much taller front sights than my old EuroArms Remmie. Before I bought my first conversion cylinder for the old EuroArms Remmie I had a gunsmith install a taller front sight. I bought an Uberti front sight and he cut the dovetail larger to accept the new sight. Then I went out and shot it a bit as a C&B. I was pleased that the point of impact had come down a bit so I went ahead and bought the conversion cylinder.

Here is a photo of my old EuroArms Remmie with its R&D conversion cylinder and its taller front sight. The original front sight was much shorter.

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Old March 1, 2015, 03:38 AM   #7
ZVP
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My revolvers are post 2000 in age.
Both are Piettuas.
Good actions.
I once tested a cylinder with .45 Scoffield caliber bullets. It shot great! Low recoil the Remington is a large gun and soaks it up.
Versitale.
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