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View Poll Results: Do you carry a walking cane?
Always 47 9.96%
Sometimes 191 40.47%
Never 185 39.19%
Concealed Carry is enough 66 13.98%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 472. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 12, 2012, 05:13 PM   #526
hso
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Is a legal length specified?
No

A cane that is shorter than the medical length might get some attention and no amount of ADA claims are going to hold water when you can't use it to support yourself. OTOH, I have seen a few people that prefer to use a longer stave as tall as shoulder high for their disability with the feeling they have a better grip and can hang on it instead of leaning on a wrist high cane.
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Old May 12, 2012, 06:11 PM   #527
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OTOH, I have seen a few people that prefer to use a longer stave as tall as shoulder high for their disability with the feeling they have a better grip and can hang on it instead of leaning on a wrist high cane.
I see this all the time at the hospital, particularly with chronically ill patients. And not all medical reasons are leg-related. Some people have conditions of the inner ear, the brain, the blood or just their overall constitution (i.e. fatigue). E.g. they might want something they can grip with both hands to lean on when they have a dizzy spell.
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Old May 12, 2012, 10:07 PM   #528
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I saw an older gentleman at the mall today using a staff that was at least 4 and a half feet long. It seemed to work for him but if I were planning on using it as a weapon I would want the shortest thing that would still reach the floor, in my case that is about 3 feet. A staff might give you a reach advantage in an open field but is a bit too long to use indoors or in an urban enviroment.
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Old May 13, 2012, 12:38 AM   #529
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I teach cane defense and own quite a few in different lengths. My hiking one is 5 ft. I prefer conventional crooks that are opened up a littel to allow for better grabbing and locks. I used one after knee surgery as inteneded- but otherwise they are there for comfort (ie-peace of mind) when out and about. I would never try to tak emy favorite specialty fighting cane on a plane as it looks the part-hickory heart, sharpened hook with angled crook, angles and grooves notched for control and pressure point. The most obvious would be the emerald eyes above the hook! It would be my cane of choice if I had to rely on just the cane, but I usually carry an instructor's cane from Cane Masters in hickory heart- it feels right and just looks plain. I love canes of all sorts!

Last edited by BEEinAK; May 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM.
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Old May 14, 2012, 10:31 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by TomADC View Post
Deltaboy look on the bright side at my age you are a youngster!
Thanks I have a teenager at home. But since last Nov 2011 my ankle has really gone south on me and some days I feel at least 20 years older than I am.
I am a big fan of Stock Canes since the come from Shepherd Staff length too about 32 inchs. They are Oak, Hickory or Ash and are all over a Inch around.
I am customizing one with a Birds beak on the end of the Hook.
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Old May 16, 2012, 12:00 AM   #531
Owen Sparks
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A lot can be done with the crook end of a cane but I really don't like the idea of tying up my weapon in a real self-defense situation no matter well I can control the opponant. What if he has friends? The best restraining hold is a coma.
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Old May 16, 2012, 12:42 AM   #532
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I have a permit to carry.... and do. However, I also carry a ZAP Cain. It puts out 1 MILLION low amperage volts! The only thing I can say is "It's the ****s!" My wife and I had left a late nite movie. While walking to our vehicle 3 punks came to us "selling gold jewelry." I first warned them "I don't want any stay away." They still came on so I Zaped the lead individual in the chest, he actually grabbed the cain, and he went to his knees. Then I hit him again on the neck, and he collapsed. I told his friends that I was calling the law, and suggested they vacate the area. My wife and I made it to our car and got the hell out of Dodge. If I had went for my carry it could have gotten ugly for all. For $80.00 bucks I bought a bargain........ I have taken the Irish method of cain defense and I recommend it to all elderly, hell everyone, as a means of defense. It does not however, replace the "carry" firearm. A trained person with a cain is someone to avoid........
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Old May 16, 2012, 08:24 AM   #533
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The best restraining hold is a coma.
Indeed.
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Old May 16, 2012, 10:31 AM   #534
Owen Sparks
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As a civilian, what is your objective in an armed self-defense encounter?

It is not restraint, it is not arrest, it is not control.
Your only goal should be to end it as soon as possible and retreat to safety.

There are several videos on YouTube of people who know how to use a crook end of a cane hooking people’s legs out from under them and putting them in all sorts of exotic arm locks and choke holds. There is a time and place for this sort of thing but NOT in self-defense. Sure it looks cool and probably sells lots of videos but let's think about it logically.

In order to do the cool leg pull technique featured in one of the videos you would have to purposefully turn your cane around, reach PAST the target, hook the leg and yank it out from under the opponent. If you had time to reach past his leg you would have had more than enough time to HIT it and if done forcefully with a heavy stick the opponent will collapse.
The end results would be the same, bad guy on the ground, only the strike is much faster and does not tie up your weapon.

A good smash to the hand or lower forearm will put a hand out of commission just as well as any arm lock without also putting your stick out of commission and leaving you totally vulnerable until someone else calls the cops and they arrive. Why someone else? Because you will have both hands full restraining the bad guy and hoping that he does not have any friends near by.
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Old May 16, 2012, 12:22 PM   #535
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As a civilian, what is your objective in an armed self-defense encounter?

It is not restraint, it is not arrest, it is not control.
Your only goal should be to end it as soon as possible and retreat to safety.

There are several videos on YouTube of people who know how to use a crook end of a cane hooking people’s legs out from under them and putting them in all sorts of exotic arm locks and choke holds. There is a time and place for this sort of thing but NOT in self-defense. Sure it looks cool and probably sells lots of videos but let's think about it logically.

In order to do the cool leg pull technique featured in one of the videos you would have to purposefully turn your cane around, reach PAST the target, hook the leg and yank it out from under the opponent. If you had time to reach past his leg you would have had more than enough time to HIT it and if done forcefully with a heavy stick the opponent will collapse.
The end results would be the same, bad guy on the ground, only the strike is much faster and does not tie up your weapon.

A good smash to the hand or lower forearm will put a hand out of commission just as well as any arm lock without also putting your stick out of commission and leaving you totally vulnerable until someone else calls the cops and they arrive. Why someone else? Because you will have both hands full restraining the bad guy and hoping that he does not have any friends near by.
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Yeah, gotta pretty much free with those sentiments. Why tie up your best weapon, not to mention yourself, when fractions of seconds count? I feel that the first 5 or 6 seconds will determine the outcome of the fight. As I see it, the whole object is to put the assailant down right now. They may have yet another weapon not seen yet, or co defendants to be close by. I want to inflict crippling damage in the very first seconds, and then take advantage of the space to retreat at best speed. I'm not interested in arresting anyone, or holding them for detainment. I'm outa there.

I have a feeling that a great many of these u-tube heroes have never had a real life fight on the street. Their stuff just looks too impractical for real world use. Sure, it looks great in the well lit studio in their white suit, but in a dark parking lot or crowded bar it seems to be a different story. We had an officer on the Trinidad P.D. where I was, and he prided himself on being a black belt in Tae Kwan do and even taught it at the local college. But I lost track of how many times we had to pull somebody off of him in a bar disturbance. His stuff just didn't seem to work that well in real life in spite of the trophies he had from competition.

A good stick is for striking back against your attacker and then getting out of Dodge. If I happen to break some bones, tough luck.

Carl.
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Old May 16, 2012, 02:31 PM   #536
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I used to work as a bouncer and there were a few times that I had to restrain people, sometimes for their own good. But that was in a controlled environment where I had help and was not acting in self-defense. My goal was to keep people from hurting each other and from getting hurt.

Like I said above, there is a time and place for restraining holds but not in self-defense. Therefore I see no need for a crook handle on a cane carried for that purpose.
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Old May 17, 2012, 12:54 AM   #537
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I absolutely agree that 'getting out of Dodge' is the right attitude in civilian self defense, but assuming that you will always be in a position to strike from a distance is erroneous. A cane can be used in many positions and some positions that you can find yourself in during an attack absolutely are within reach of choking (strangling more correectly). I understand that there are many techniques that may seem too fancy to work, but there are many times that a leg sweep would be reasonable- AFTER a blow. I practice at all ranges with the cane and also do some grappling with it. I also agree with the comments made about worrying about the attacker's friends so it is best to end the confrontation and not be vulnerable. I am just glad that people realize the potential of the cane and are carrying them- no matter the difference in how we view their uses.
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Old May 17, 2012, 06:14 AM   #538
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I don't "leg sweep" with a stick- just bean the heck out of ashi bari (ankle bone) or knee.

John
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Old May 17, 2012, 07:30 AM   #539
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Of the 2 dozen or so canes I have made not one has a crook. Balls, eggs, L's T's and wraps, only. I do not practice sweeps. Block, parry, Bash, smash, thrust, up stroke, butt stroke, down stroke, to bones, joints, face. Disable and disengage. Quickly. Once safe figure out why your situational awareness failed.
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Old May 17, 2012, 06:41 PM   #540
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Carl and Bikerdoc are right. I like the crook to hang on tables or my wrist when I go out to eat. I don't try to do sweeps either. Jab , Strike or Thrust and get out of dodge.

The Old Solid Brass Hame balls you can find on E-bay or antique stores can smash bones with ease when attached to 34+ inchs of 1 1/2 Oak ! I sent a pit to doggie heaven with mine.
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Old May 17, 2012, 07:22 PM   #541
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I have found that I can put the ball handle of my cane into my armpit and clamp down on it a little with a 'chicken wing' and it will stay in place if I need both hands free to serve my plate, count change or whatever. This is not a comfortable long term way to carry a stick by any means but it does just fine for the thirty seconds or so that it takes to pay for gas or whatever.
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Old May 17, 2012, 10:00 PM   #542
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I do that too with my ball cane and my Hammer head. Big Al showed me how to break a wrist with the crook of a stanard cane. Done properly without mercy it makes a sickening sound.
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Old May 18, 2012, 01:43 AM   #543
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You can break a wrist with ANY style of cane provided it has suficient mass. All you have to do is hit the bad guy on the wrist. I see no point in trying to tie-up and wrestle in order to get a joint lock when you can hit the bad guy from a safe distance and be done with him.
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Old May 18, 2012, 05:52 AM   #544
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I see no point in trying to tie-up and wrestle in order to get a joint lock when you can hit the bad guy from a safe distance and be done with him.
A loud Amen from me Owen.
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Old May 18, 2012, 08:46 PM   #545
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I need a cane to walk sometimes. If I need it to fight I'd fall down and somebody might get shot.Stuff happens.tom.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:30 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by Owen Sparks View Post
You can break a wrist with ANY style of cane provided it has suficient mass. All you have to do is hit the bad guy on the wrist. I see no point in trying to tie-up and wrestle in order to get a joint lock when you can hit the bad guy from a safe distance and be done with him.
True the context in which I was taught was using your cane in a stairwell or elevator.
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Old May 20, 2012, 09:46 AM   #547
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548 posts and still going.....

What I am seeing is that the first rule of "cane fighting" is "have a cane"

My own has been in hand a lot this past month as I was a youthful Knee Abuser. (roller skating, parachuting, snow skiing, water skiing, and other ways of twisting and banging a knee took up the time between Ace Bandage wraps) FOrtunately I got my Rooster COmb injection in the affected joint this friday and am about through with my light duty days and ready to walk unassisted in the next day or so.

It seems that this thread is like many others, with experts telling us that serious folks only use an XYZ type of cane made from QRS and that we should only be concerned with ABC methods of use.

I think we each need to carry what we are comfortable with and train as we are comfortable and ABLE to train. I also think the more options one trains for the better.

Last post meantioned elevators....friday I was on an elevator with my elementary age daughter who was on crutches and weraring a cast. I was hobbling along really using my cane as a walking aid. A six foot -four + guy (yep that is two meters)with a large muscular frame and a somewhat angry contenance got on at the last moment as the door closed. Now all the swinging in the world with my cane would have been useless if he had been a preditor, even my own favorite thrusts might have been crowded. But I could have used my stick likely to put him on the floor and perhaps keep him there until the doors opened again using the cane as a tool to grapple with or "tie him up" with various holds and pressure points......IF I KNEW HOW TO DO THEM as I had not just poo-pooed folks that suggest learning them and championed whaling away and swinging for the back wall. FOrtunately the guy was no threat 1. he was a nice guy, 2. we were in the Ortho hospital and his knee had a fresh injury and he was just learning to walk with a third leg (three in the evening, what a mystery!)

I am all for the Louisville slugger school of cane defense. I even take practice shots at tree leaves while walking on my property to improve accuracy and speed and recovery from such shots, onehanded strong and weak and two handed. I do the same for thrusts on the theory that being able to give a quick thrust to a leaf fluttering on the end of a small twig means I can hit a target like say a knee or adam's apple with some certainty. I thrust against and swing on hay bales so my practice has some resistance. Occasionaly friends and family are willing participants as victims of wrist and arm locks and leg tangles (though I do not shove them to the ground once they are off balance)

There is certainly something to be said for the military combative notion of teaching only a few techneques so the troopers can learn those well....but we are not on an eight to ten week training schedule around here. Learn and practice for as many options as possible and yes a great starting point with the cane is just learning to delive a good smashing swing and getting out of Dodge. Just remember that sometimes the streets of DOdge can be road blocked,

As to what canes are made of and how constructed......yea old .25ACP/.22short verses the something starting with four arguement. No and aluminum adjustable cane will not have the wallop of a Hickory Stock cane or a cane made of rare African Ju-ju wood and likely will not be useful as a cane after defensive use. Currently I carry a .32 ACP of a cane. It is made of some light unknown wood has no mods to the crook, no weights, no teeth. If I tried to use it as a lever to roll small limestone boulders it would likely splinter. Yet it survives that leaf smacking hay bale wacking and arm twisting well enough that it might just save my life. I do want to replace it with a heavier hickory stock cane and do want to open the crook of such a cane, but it is what I have and have had for a couple of years (locally stock canes located have been made for dwaves appearently).

Mainly my concern here is that we stay on The High Road and offer constructive advice rather than growling at one another.

Mean while those of you with knees that tend to go bone on bone look into the rooster comb injections. They work for a year to 18 months of mainly pain free knee use for me. I am also to be fitted with a new type of brace that weighs but 14 ounces (call it 400 grams?) and is not supposed to show under non tapered jeans and trousers that will restor some of my rotation. Still even with the new brace basket ball is not an option for me because of the surity of injury....my wife would kill me if she caught me with a b-ball!

May you never get a splinter from your friend and my your rubber tips never seperate or wear through.

-kBob
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Old May 20, 2012, 12:34 PM   #548
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First of all, a cane is not always the best weapon for every situation. For example, a typical 3 foot walking cane would be pretty useless if you were attacked in a phone booth or in the front seat of your car. Then again, you could say the same thing about your AR-15. It would also be too long to maneuver. For extremely close quarters you need a very short stick, preferably a metal one with a very sharp point or one that shoots .45 caliber bullets, but a knife or pistol would be next to useless in the open terrain of desert warfare. The truth is that no weapon is good at all distances so we must make compromises.

The reason we carry a cane is not because it is the best weapon, but because it is the best weapon that we can always have with us. Again, just like any other weapon they are a compromise. Canes are not even the best stick for most defensive uses. They are a little bit too long to swing indoor as the typical ceiling is only 8 feet high. The cabin of an airliner is even more confined. The kicker is that we can’t always walk around with the perfect arm length escrima stick, billy club, riot baton or katana or much less, a firearm. We have to carry the best thing that we can get away with anywhere and now days, thanks to a quirk in the law, that is a walking cane.
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Old May 20, 2012, 01:58 PM   #549
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^ All those moves have a place. and I have practiced them.

Again using a pool noodle lets friends and relatives get creative, helps me train and doesnt hurt them too much.
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Old May 20, 2012, 03:20 PM   #550
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Charlie is on the right track.

Let’s look at the ways a standard walking cane can be used as a weapon. There are three general categories and they are all heavily dependent on distance.

The first is circular strikes.

This is where a cane really shines because it gives you a range where you can strike the bad guy outside of his reach, even if he has a knife or is some kind of Karate expert with the rare skill to kick above the waist. The trick is to circle and sidestep like a bull fighter and keep the bad guy out on the end of your stick and make him play your game. Of course the limitation is you must have plenty of room to swing and move. Circular strikes coupled with movement can make you virtually invincible in an open parking lot but are difficult to employ indoors with furniture, ceilings and other people in the way.

The second category is thrusting techniques.

They can be applied with either the ends or middle of your stick and are only really effective when you know how to get your body weight behind your strike. I worked a great deal with this when I was a bouncer and kept the butt half of a pool cue close by at all times. When fights broke out I often had to push and shove my way through the crowd to get to the problem and just did not have room to swing. Consequently, I developed several proprietary methods to block, strike and cram and also ways to create enough space to transition back into swinging distance.

The third way a stick or cane can be used offensively is as a lever.

All joint locks, restraining holds and chokes require leverage. There definitely is a time and place for this but generally not in self-defense. This is because in order to get that leverage you must reach past some part of his body with your stick that in most cases you could have just hit. There are exceptions like the excellent fang choke taught by the Dog Brothers but it should be noted that it is taught as a ‘have to’ defense for when the opponent rushes you rather than an elective offensive move. There are plenty of people who know more about stick grappling than I do but my contention is that a medium length stick, like a rifle is not really a proper tool for grappling and you should be able to transition to something more practical like head butting and eye gouging if the bad guy crashes through swinging and thrusting range and tries to tie you up.

This ability to transition is the difference between a ‘stick fighter’ and a fighter with a stick. A stick fighter only has one weapon and is totally dependent on it. A fighter with a stick still has kicks, punches, knees and elbows, the ability to throw and grapple, bite and gouge as well as a stick but he is not married to it.
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