Musings on the Dragunov

[Nightcrawler]

I like the Dragunov rifle. It's not a standard sniper rifle; the Russians didn't employ it the way we employ our sniper rifles. It was a Designated Marksman's Rifle 30 years before we adopted the idea (I believe the Army and Marines issued ACOG scoped M14s for this now, sometimes.)

Not match-accurate, but minute-of-torso out to 600+ meters. Probably very reliable.

Looks like a Kalashnikov, but it's actually not. The Romanian PSL (Romak-3) is actually a Kalashnikov, though.

I wonder why they made the mags hold only 10 rounds? Why not 15 or 20?

Anyways, I'd love to get one, but there are problems. The closest thing you can get for a reasonable price is the PSL, and it's mags are $80 a pop.

Anybody here own or shoot a Dragunov, or one of its derivatives? How about a PSL?

Why, exactly, can't these rifles be imported from Russia? I mean, they import VEPRs; they VEPR is a 10+1 semiauto rifle with a thumbhole stock. SO IS THE DRAGUNOV! What ruling specifically prohibits the Dragunov from importation? Anyone know? Was it just some inane BATF ruling?

Finally, some pictures. Post yours if you have 'em. Mine are courtesy of World.Guns.Ru.

[Nightcrawler]

I wonder how the VEPR, Super VEPR, and VEPR II (.308 cal) stack up against the Dragunov in terms of accuracy and reliability. Anybody have one of these rifles and care to comment on their accuracy?

[BigG]

Hi Nightcrawler: I bought a Russian Izhmash TIGR which is the housebroken version of the issue Dragunov, much the same as the Colt SP1 is the housebroken version of the issue M16. They are not MOT accurate, they are MOA accurate. The snide comments about accuracy are snobs who probably haven't shot one. The type of guys who buy a heavily modified M1A and foolishly prate about how they have a REAL battle rifle conveniently forgetting its finicky system and tiny target sights. Anyway, they quit importing Dragunovs in the ban of '94 or so I remember. Too many EVIL features. You know, stuff used in bank robberies and murders like flash hiders and bayo lugs and those horrible detachable magazines. Thanks for asking about a underpraised rifle.

[Langenator]

Dangit...no fair adding guns to my wish list when I don't have any money!!

[Nightcrawler]

I'm just thinking they could make a Drag without the Flashhider and bayo lug; the Romanians import the PSL, after all.

[telewinz]

:::: finnish sniper speaks


Photo courtesy of www.hytti.uku.fi

"It's not the equipment or the money, it's about training and that cold will..."

The following is an excerpt of an email I received recently.

I am a special forces military sniper from Finland. One of our duty guns is the Russian Dragunov SVD, through which I have put several thousands of rounds. I must say as a sniper, I love this gun. Throughout most of Finland, engagement distances are moderate due to a low visibility caused by the thick forests and marshes which makes the SVD a perfect tool. The climate and terrain is sometimes quite harsh but the SVD is our choice because of the very low maintaining requirements, and above all its reliable...and that is mostly what it is all about in war. You need reliability to stay alive.

You may be surprised to learn that the main sniper weapon in Finnish military battlefield missions is the SVD. Our Special Forces snipers are mainly employed as rear security element in LRRP missions and assigned sniper duties within a given mission. The other main function is counterterrorist/urban assault sniping missions including hostage rescue and fire support.

Besides the SVD we have access to any available sniper weapon in the world, depending on the mission/target configuration. We have suppressed and silenced weapons of all kinds as well as .50 Barretts, Sako TRG 21 & 41's, and H&K PSG-1's to name a few. Normal Infantry sharpshooters use old modified Mosin-Nagant M39's (free floating barrels, wood stocks) also in 7.62 x 53R with German Kahles scopes. They also have some TRG's with Leupolds. Their training is quite different, as more battlefield support fire oriented with some countersniper abilities. We put a little more emphasis in to camouflage, movement, communications etc...

By the way, originally SVD stood for Semipolarnya Vintovka Dragunova, (NOT Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova), which means Semi-automatic Rifle Dragunov, indicating that the rifle was not meant to be a truly sniper' s weapon. It was designed to shoot accurate supportive fire beyond the range of the original AK-47 in the battlefield.

Photo courtesy of www.hytti.uku.fi

On the ROMAK-3:
I also own privately a Romanian military PSL made in 1994 and I wanted to bring out some opinions of my own into that seemingly never ending debate about SVD vs. PSL. Regarding accuracy: even though you can find the ROMAK-3 for about a fraction of the price of the genuine Russian SVD, you should buy it. Mine has a Russian military PSO-1 on it and 1PN58 with IR illuminator for night use. I have modified the grip a little and did a trigger job (easy because our service weapons are Sako and Kalashnikov assault rifles which have the same kind of action and trigger assembly).

Now both of these weapons are equally accurate!!! About 3/4 MOA groups constantly. PERIOD.

The world of difference is the ammo. Believe me we have tried it all, everything available. And what we use is the Lapua 7,62 x 53R with 148gr D- 47 bullet, which is the thicker version of the D-46 (also 148gr). It is boat-tail MATCH ammo for the old Mosin-Nagant and Finnish equivalents from the WWII- era.

I don't want you to think I'm biased because the ammo is Finnish too, its simply the most accurate for these weapons. A second choice is the Swedish Norma. The Russian silvertips to my knowledge (and our special forces sniper school's) were never intended to be accurate ammo for SVD and neither is it a match grade ammo for any 7,62 x 54R. Russians simply don't make match ammo for that caliber. It is just better quality normal ammo. (More consistent manufacturing tolerances, better powder and so on). It is somewhat accurate in SVD but not great. Russians have adopted those silvertips for their use because manufacturing match-grade ammo for the SVD would only give marginal results. Big country, big tolerances, you know. The tip is painted silver to recognize it from the other same caliber rounds, especially from WWII- era mass- production ammo.

When asked to clarify what "Silver tips" are:
I've been doing some research on your question about Russian Silvertips / 7N14. The following is not the "ultimate" truth about this yet, but to my understanding Russian silvertips are those civilian soft cast metal bullets with a little milder powder charge as I mentioned before. Those 7N14's you mentioned are probably new "Snaiperskaya" cartridges made especially for SVD, but there is no such 7N14 marking in the cartridge case, so I'm still working on this.

Anyway that new snaiperskaya is still not yet even boat-tail ammo, so the accuracy is more consistent, but generally over 1 MOA. The "thing" in those cartridges is the powder and charge, which in Russia is said to be "the most suitable used for the SVD", which is probably right, because itÕs ballistics are somewhat identical to Lapua and Norma, and it stabilizes the bullet properly. The lack in accuracy depends still on bullet construction. By the way Sako and Lapua have also manufactured 7,62 x 53R ammo in boxer cases for competition purposes and I happen to have about 100 of them. They are accurate!

The reason why it is hard to obtain Match-grade ammo for the caliber is mainly bullet construction. The bullet is a bit thicker than average boat-tail match .308, which makes it a lower volume manufacturing product for any bigger ammunition factory. If you mean to reload your ammo, you can easily obtain powder and bullets, but Berdan primers are hard to get items. If you can get Berdan primers for the cartridge, you first have to invent a method of getting those used primers off from the two- priming hole case without harming it. We have most commonly used water pressure. You can use boxer primers in Berdan cases but it leads to primer pressure leaks and primer off-center problems which causes uneven burning and leads to fatal loss of accuracy ( "flys" [a.k.a. flyers], which means one single bullet tens of centimeters off target). Also the boxer primer sits a little bit too deep into berdan primer hole, which can cause a dud or an uneven pressure curve in powder burning. In Finland if a person can get his hands onto boxer primed cases you can definetly consider yourself as a lottery winner!

I also have an M39 in mint shooting condition. I use Lapua match ammo with D-46 bullet and that rifle is truly accurate and pleasant to shoot. I also own a Suomi submachine-pistol with 14 new barrels and shim-sets.

I was asked to add:
Everything I have stated is of my own responsibility and my own opinion and experience, not Finnish Army's or Government's official claim.

[Balog]

I've often wondered why the Russkies don't just take the bayo lug off and import 'em. But I may be misunderstanding the applicable laws

[MiniZ]

Russia has agreed to not import "military" weapons. Neutered versions of their weapons(Saiga for example), and weapons that deviate far enough from the original configuration(Vepr) are still allowable.

[Nightcrawler]

I'd like a customized Dragunov. Take the regular fixed stock version, replace the stock with one a lefty like me can use. Shorten the barrel to about 20", replace flashhider and bayonet lug if possible.

That'd be cool.

[DMK]

That's an interesting letter telewinz, thanks for posting that. Most of that info applies to the Mosin-Nagant as well.

[B27]

Centerfire Systems will sell you four Romak3/FPK/PSL mags for $150-

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/miv...tegory_Code=SA

I have enjoyed mine a great deal but they do require some fiddling with to shoot up to their potential. And of course they are not a Dragunov-

[Nightcrawler]

What kind of "fiddling" is required? Just finding the right load?

And will a regular AK stock fit that rifle? 'Cause being a lefty, I can't use that stock. One of those ATI thumbhole stocks with the cheek piece would be perfect, and it'd keep the Dragunov look.

[B27]

There is a picture here www.dragunov.net of a Romak 3 with an ATI stock on it I believe.
As to fiddling, the stock triggers are atrocious. The pull is long, gritty and inconsistent.
I replaced the the trigger with one from www.redstararms.com and the pull is now excellent. I did it myowndamnself which means anybody can do it.
The standard issue scope is a 4x that needs to be upgraded if you want to shoot at real distances.
I put a Russian 6x illuminated scope on mine.
Now they are often being sold with 6x and 8x scopes already on them.
The stock is impossible for an average person to get a proper cheek weld on. I bought the thickest strap on cheek pad that Sinclair makes and put that on the rifle when I shoot it.
Only fiddling I have left to do is to remove some wood from inside the hand guards that is touching the barrel.
That may or may not improve groups but I just enjoy messing with the ugly thing.
They require light bullets to get decent groups. I have a stash of 150 grain Hungarian soft points but am going to buy some of that Wolf with 147 grain bullets which sounds like it might be just the ticket.

[B27]

[Glock Glockler]

It seems that it"d be a dynamite import if they did it right: Chamber it in .308 and build it to accept G3 magazines. It does seem strange that they'd export a Vepr but not a Dragonuv, especially when a Drag has a more politically correct stock.

[JShirley]

Soldier of Fiction, I believe it was, did an article on these maybe two years ago. I seem to recall that there is some extremely accurate Soviet ammo out there, it's just extremely rare and hard to find. But, definitely Match quality.

There is a Chinese Dragunov. As I recall, a couple of years ago, you could get one in .308- called a "Tiger", IIRC- for less than $1000. Looks like they're going for over twice that now.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/individual/rifle_79.asp

[JohnKSa]

A few loose ends.

The 10 round mags are nice when shooting from a rest. The longer mags get in the way.

The VEPR is not a Dragunov, it's an RPK (beefed up AK) receiver with a semi-automatic action.

The VEPR rifles are imported with wood thumbhole stocks. The pistol grip stocks are installed stateside.

From what I understand, the average VEPR is more likely to be a 2MOA rifle than a 1MOA rifle.

[mylesd]

Ok, Ill bite on the Romak. How much would I be looking at if I wanted to get one of these. I dont want the chinese one... in my opinion your paying for the rarity rather than quality. I had a romanian sar-1 and it worked well... so Im willing to give this a shot. Ive seen prices from 725 for used to 899 for new. Anyone know where they sell the romaks at a good price? I mean, is a romak even the way to go in terms of this or should I not even bother. I already have a PSS in 308 and its pretty sweet. But I happen to be a big fan of assault rifles. Is it worth it in terms of accuracy? I read the posts saying it can be good but I want to know the cost of that accuracy. Cause I will maybe be able to scrounge up a grand at most to invest in this and that is a ton for me. I went out and go 2 sks's and an XD40 and thats set me back. I looked at CDNN and they just have the chinese ones... Any thoughts or insight?

[El Tejon]

Night, they are not imported because of the '96 VRA with Russia. Clinton gave Russia the gold and currency backing it needed to keep a float and Russia agreed to severe import restrictions on firearms. The White House was terrified that Russia would flood the domestic market with firearms.

Can you image the full force of the Tula arsenal or all those captured German weapons (a couple of 6s for a few containers did get approved) being imported upon the demand curve? The domestic manufacturers would go nuts.

Back when they were dirt cheap and all this was orchard, I experimented with one (Chinee copy). It is far too heavy and bulky for its intended role. However, it is different and therefore better and it is tacticool. YMMV.

[Nightcrawler]

However, it is different and therefore better and it is tacticool.

Yes, El Tejon, that's the sole reason for my interest in this rifle.

[telewinz]

Aim still has them at $775 with 4X Scope. The Best price (Interordnance?) is $675 with 8X Scope. With surplus ammo you will get 2" groups all day long hot or cold barrel at 100 meters. If you need to make a 1000 meter shot...well it might take 3-4 rounds to get a hit.

[Gabe]

I certainly think Dragunov is the coolest looking rifle ever. However I have fired the Romak and think it handles better and better suit my 6 foot frame. I would personally chose a Romak to shoot and a Dragunov for the safe.

Of course with aftermarket kits that could change.

[mylesd]

Ok, so let me get this straight before I start to seriously consider investing in this. The accuracy on the Romak is good ? Can someone explain the difference between the romak and the traditional svd? Im failing to see the main differences (bullet point it for me if possible. Is it just the russian name behind it or are they mechanically different and how so? And if I bought one, how difficult is it to really clean it up nicely and tinker with it? I bought an SKS and did a nice job on it with wood staining and getting all the cosomoline out, so thats not a prob but I mean mechanical tuning up. Im no gunsmith, so im a novice in the truest sense of the word so whats involved in a "trigger job"?. Is it just a trigger job that I would need you think or an entire tune up?

I dont want to invest in this if it is not going to be that accurate. Id like to have something where I could nail a silhouette sized target at say 500m easily. I have a Rem. PSS 308 and I could probably do that with it if I applied myself and practiced. I realize that it wont be as accurate but somewhere in the ballpark? I checked on it and Interordnance has them for sale for $694 with a 8x42 russian scope (would that be the illuminated ones? and is that the scope I would want for it?). It also comes with a 10 and a 5 rounder. Im not much for 20 round mags so 10's will do. What else would I be wanting to get for this rifle? And guys... lets be real here... no night vision goodies or anything like that. Lets stick to accuracy and functionality issues We'll hit the night vision and goodies later if I buy it and still have money! I figure, if I could do this for about 800- 850 that would be good. Possible? Time I have tons of to work on and I love doing that.

Thanks for all the help guys, sorry for all the questions. Ive just got gun fever lately and always have been interested in the dragunov rifles. Im slowly giving in to the urge!!!
MDL

[BigG]

Difference betw Romak and Dragunov (SVD). The big mechanical differences I know is the Dragunov is a dedicated short stroke gas piston design with separate bolt carrier. The Romak is a scaled up AK47 action with the attached long stroke piston and rod. The drag has a forged steel receiver where most of the AKs have folded sheet metal welded or riveted.

With my Drag, I bought an extra stock from Numrich, increased the length of pull about 2" and installed a nice buttplate, finishing it off in automotive black. Still have the original in case anybody wants to buy the gun. With silver tip ball ammo it shoots five shots well below MOA. All that said, I have had the M1A and sold it. The Dragunov is the one semi auto rifle I will keep.

As far as accuracy of the Romak, I would trust the comments from the Finnish guy, which Telewinz kindly posted above. Finland is the home of some great rifles and riflemen. Valmet and Sako comes to mind...

[Cosmoline]

I like the note about M-39's still being in use by front line snipers! The Finns know a good think when they have it.

Did you know, if the US military had a cartridge of similar vintage to the 7.62x54R, it would still be using the .30-40 Krag. Of course the Krag never had the knockdown power of the 54R