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Old September 7, 2014, 05:22 AM   #1
elhombreconnonombre
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Third times the charm to acquire a nice Martini Henry

After losing out out on a fully engraved MH carbine and a custom sporter MH big game rifle, maybe I'll be lucky this time: an Enfield made 1887 Mk IV rifle, which has been to a smith, test fired with obsolete Kynoch smokeless rounds, and comes with several boxes of Kynoch rounds.

This should be a great single shot mil-spec battle rifle to use in Grand Army of the Frontier shooting competitions. I plan to shoot the Kynoch rounds and reload any of the brass cases that don't split with 85 grains of bp, followed by a lambs wool wad, a milk carton disk, a beeswax wafer, a paper disk, and finally a custom paper-patched repro 485 grain bullet, now being made.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 7, 2014, 04:51 PM   #2
zimmerstutzen
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You gonna get a 472 mold or paper patch some 457 up to size?
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Old September 7, 2014, 11:18 PM   #3
elhombreconnonombre
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I have found some .472 paper patched bullets specifically made for the Mk IV.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.

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Old September 9, 2014, 12:49 AM   #4
elhombreconnonombre
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Possibly off topic regarding toy cap gun - mods can close if that is their desire

Remember the line of Mattel "Shootin Shell" toy cap pistols and rifles way back when?
Its not as sophisticated as those, but I found this little jewel in the $1.99 toy rack at my local carneceria/panaderķa/convenience store/gas station: typical Chinese DA break front 8 ring toy cap gun, but this one claims "with real bullet shooting action - fires 8-shot ring caps and 8 plastic bullets bullets in one loading". The cylinder chambers do line up with the barrel when indexing/firing, and there is opening in the orange blaze tip of the barrel for a plastic bullet to be expelled, but no plastic bullets are included.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 9, 2014, 07:37 AM   #5
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Our local Dollar Tree stores sold a gaudy plastic pistol that fired confetti cartridges. The plastic cartridges had some sort of plastic centerfire primer and were the exact outer diameter of the 45 colt. In fact they could be shot in a 45 colt. Indoors they were too loud. I often wondered how many bubba's (young and old) tried to reload/alter the things with black powder.
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Old September 9, 2014, 11:08 AM   #6
elhombreconnonombre
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Zimm
I'll have to look for those for fun at bd parties, but I really posted this in the wrong place. It should have had its own thread. Maybe I'll repost if I don't get any more responses.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

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Old September 9, 2014, 11:26 AM   #7
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Zimm
Heres a coupla pics of the cap gun.

Question on the 1887 MH, were these Mk IVs proofed with smokeless powder? Many of the old MHs "I have heard" did use the .577-.450 drawn brass cartridges loaded with smokeless with no problem as this one I discussed above and very expensive obsolete Kynoch smokeless rounds are available.

Also, could I safely shoot a custom buckshot load out of a MH, using an appropriate length Magtech 20 gauge brass shot shell loaded with bp or bp sub or would that be impossible given the fact that the chamber excepts a necked down cartridge?
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 9, 2014, 11:32 AM   #8
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 9, 2014, 03:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhombreconnonombre View Post
Also, could I safely shoot a custom buckshot load out of a MH, using an appropriate length Magtech 20 gauge brass shot shell loaded with bp or bp sub or would that be impossible given the fact that the chamber excepts a necked down cartridge?
You won't be able to do this. 20 gauge will be too big. You can make 577 Snyder and 577-450 brass by sizing and cutting 24 gauge brass. You could make a shot load for the rifle using using the proper brass like was issued at one time though
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Old September 9, 2014, 04:02 PM   #10
elhombreconnonombre
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Oops...I meant 24 gauge Magtech brass shot shells.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:17 AM   #11
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I wonder if that top break cap gun takes airsoft ( or that other almost airsoft)round ball loaded from the front of the cylinder like one of our C&B revolvers? SHoot, now I need to stop at a convience store.......

As to shot from the MH.....did not the british make some weird 14 gauge or something that took an odd priming system and was smooth bore for "Police" use in India? Odd shaped metal case if I recall.

I wonder if the British military ever made shot rounds for use in the MH for guard use?

What with the rifling in the barrel I wonder if loading the shot into the shell in a paper capsule or cylinder might help. I had some of the old USGI "survival" cartridges for the .45 ACP that had red paper mache like capsules full of shot. Back when my brain was still developing I fired some and did not take notes or do any sort of "scientific" testing. All I truly recall is that it went bang and dirt flew up around the piece of trash I shot at. I did not recall there being any supper nasty leading in my pistol though.

-kBob
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:59 AM   #12
elhombreconnonombre
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Kbob
I'll have to check my local Academy Sports and look at the airsoft balls. I have used paper patched .435 cal hard rubber slingshot practice rb ammo in my .44 revolvers using just a percussion cap for the charge for shooting in the garage.

And yes, they made smoothbore Greener MH shotguns for use in prisons. I've never seen a
round for one.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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Old September 10, 2014, 12:13 PM   #13
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The rims on the 24 ga brass are not as large, sturdy or as substantial, but 24 will work.

The Greener MH shotguns are a bottle necked 14 ga, with a groove around the cartridge base for a double pin firing pin. Other 14 ga shells will not fire without a firing pin modification.

Keep in mind that the Military MH's have double choked rifled bores One choke just ahead of the chamber and another just before the muzzle. As a result, a very soft alloy or pure lead works better. A hard alloy bullet can build dangerous pressures by getting jammed at one of the chokes.

Shot cartridges consisted of spun paper "bullets" filled with shot and seated into the case. (Also used in 577 Snider and 43 Spanish for foraging shells) I would never try a conventional powder, wad, shot and over shot wad in such a bottle necked case. Too dangerous.

Old "Smokeless" loads are probably loaded with one of the very early bulk powders that were low pressure and slower burning. (Some early smokeless powders advertised that they could be used measure for measure as a substitute for black powder. But that proved dangerous for many hunters)

I would not feel safe with any of today's smokeless powders in such a large bottle neck case. I have loaded alot of 4198 in cartridges but would never risk it in such a huge case. Stick with black powder. Break down the old cases and reload them with black if you must.
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Old September 10, 2014, 04:52 PM   #14
elhombreconnonombre
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Zimm
I had read about the double choked MH barrel, so I fuese slugging the barrel from both the breech end and muzzle is needed to get an accurate read on the appropriate proyectiles size.

What about making a candle cartridge (a pure lead buck and ball in a beeswax matrix bullet) in a recycled Kynoch necked down brass cartridge using bp? It should easily spit out the barrel without breaking up and disintegrate at the target. If that works I might be able to use it in the Forager shooting clase of the GAF.
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On patrol and cold camping tonight with Cap'n Yack and Flacco on the Pinta Trail under a Comanche Moon near Enchanted Rock...out of cell phone range

God Bless John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Errol Flynn, Randolph Scott, and Val Forgett Jr.
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