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Old April 12, 2014, 09:36 PM   #1
dmancornell
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Savage Model 12 vs GAP/Surgeon

Looking for an honest marginal value assessment. I want to ring small pieces of steel at 600-1000 yards and my R700 5R in .308 isn't doing it. I'm thinking about a 6.5 Creedmoor. I don't reload due to other time-consuming commitments. I'll be shooting the factory loads only (probably the Hornady ammo).

If I stick with factory ammo, will there be a significant difference between say, the Savage Model 12 versus a GAP or Surgeon build at those distances? The targets are 6-8 inch discs, so I'm looking for a consistently sub-MOA rifle over a whole box of rounds, not just 3 shots, ignoring user error of course.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:06 PM   #2
EchoM70
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a custom build is going to be more accurate across the board than any mass produced factory rifle. I do love the Savage LRP and it's definitely capable of some very small consistent groups it's not going to hang with something custom.

Factory ammo is going to hold you back just like factory rifles will hold you back. To get the highest degree of accuracy care and consistency has to put in the each round, just like care and consistency has to be present in each part of the rifle. Something mass produced just won't have that, to that degree.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:33 PM   #3
back40
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what is your experience shooting at that size target at that range? the rem 5Rs i've seen are quite accurate. the shooter and ammo are going to be your weakest links by far.

without handloading, i'm not sure spending money on another rifle will get you the results you desire.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:37 PM   #4
dmancornell
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I get hits with the 5R, just not consistently.

I guess another way to frame the question is, what is the best accuracy I can get with a rifle with factory ammo on any caliber at 600-1000 yards.
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Old April 13, 2014, 04:33 AM   #5
Cee Zee
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a custom build is going to be more accurate across the board than any mass produced factory rifle.
Sorry friend but I disagree. Team Savage has won a large number of competitions in F Class and F/TR with essentially bone stock rifles (and in some cases completely bone stock rifles) and they were shooting against custom rifles. The Savage rifles they used are the same 12's that we can buy off the shelf.

I just covered this ground in another post. You can read that post here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....0&postcount=23

You'll find quotes from a Team Savage member who explains that they do indeed use either completely stock rifles or very close to it. The changes they made were very minimal when they did make changes. And they have won a number of competitions with those rifles. You can learn about Team Savage here among other places:

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=2K5nTzegQ

BTW I'd suggest trying Black Hills ammo for the OP since he will be using factory ammo. I don't have the time to get into reloading either. It's more a thing of me likely not living long enough to learn to reload well enough to make a difference. If I had someone with the time and inclination to help me that would be different but I have moved away from my home area and my gun club. I could have joined another but it wasn't really close to me and there's no reason to expect someone there would take the time to show me how to load effectively. So I shoot factory ammo too. And the best ammo I've found for my Savage rifle is by far Black Hills ammo. I don't get to shoot 600 yards because my club was just getting a 600 yard range going when I moved away so I don't have anywhere to shoot that far. But I did shoot 500 yards quite a bit and I could shoot pretty consistently depending mostly on the wind. I was shooting 3"-5" groups consistently even with the wind. Without it I could get that group size down even further. I shot one group that was well under an inch at 500 yards but that certainly wasn't common. 5" was probably more the norm. And that was with a bone stock .223 Savage 12 LRPV with the Target Accutrigger and action. From what I understand the people at the club I nearly joined were using that rifle almost exclusively at their 600 yard competitions. That's what I was told by a range master from that club anyway.

I'm not at all familiar with the builds the OP mentions.
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Old April 13, 2014, 05:19 AM   #6
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Problem I see with this is after you start hitting those gongs at that distance where are you gonna go from there To answer your ammo question that's a hard ball to call. I've seen rifles in the same session shoot factory cartridge "match" loadings out of the same box absolutely sub-minute in one rifle than a 3 inch group the same session out of the same box in a different rifle of proven sub-minute precision. That second rifle held sub-minute precision later in the session with a different brand. At the accuracy you're requiring you're simply going to have to try different loads...If you're willing to invest in a rifle like a Surgeon than you might try to find a Match Grade custom ammo loader in your area.
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Old April 13, 2014, 08:04 AM   #7
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Cee Zee, I'll respectfully disagree with your contention. I'm sure those Savages have the capability of shooting very well indeed but there's far more to it than that. Team Savage designed those rifles for specific competitions, shooting against other stock offerings and Savage spent the money to recruit the best shooters available. It isn't difficult to connect the dots and realize that what Savage bought was talent, plain and simple. While not a bad thing, it simply does not equate to a better rifle than can be had with a custom build.

What the OP needs...we simply cannot divine that with the information given except to say that too little has been qualified to narrow things down to the equipment being to blame. We may have assumptions but no real facts and given that, my best recommendation for the OP is to learn to read wind. No amount of fancy equipment will make up for that, certain calibers can compensate with higher BC bullets that decrease its affect but all else being equal, wind will separate good shooters from inexperienced ones at distance.

Look through the thousands of postings here at THR and notice how few of those groups are at any distance beyond 100 yards then ask the guys shooting at distance what goes into their groups. No amount of equipment can buy any of us much more than we already bring.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:11 AM   #8
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I believe GAP guarantees sub half MOA on their rifles.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:32 AM   #9
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You can get the Savage and switch to an expensive after market barrel and still come in well under the price of the surgeon.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:59 AM   #10
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Start handloading for the 5R .308 you already have, maybe upgrade your optics/bases/rings, and work on your shooting technique. Reduce your other time consuming commitments if you want to hit small targets at 1000 yards consistently.

All of these are cheaper than buying a new rifle, handloading your ammo will allow you to shoot a more accurate load and shoot more for the same amount of money, and shooting more will give you more practice shooting and "doping" the wind which will shrink your groups and allow you to hit more steel.

Just my .02,
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Old April 13, 2014, 11:26 AM   #11
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Sorry friend but I disagree. Team Savage has won a large number of competitions in F Class and F/TR with essentially bone stock rifles (and in some cases completely bone stock rifles) and they were shooting against custom rifles. The Savage rifles they used are the same 12's that we can buy off the shelf.
Team Savage is a brillant marketing ploy by Savage. I'm certain those rifles TS uses are made with the same parts as factory Savage rifles. I'm also certain those rifles are looked over with a fine-tooth comb and a lot of care and consistency was used when assembling them, like when you assemble a custom. So yes they're "factory" but they're not exactly the same as what you'd pick up from your LGS.

Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of Savage rifles. But there is no way a mass-produced rifle can match its custom counterpart. Those extremely tight tolerances you need to ensure consistency would require too much time and labor in the mass production environment.



OP, I'll Echo what's been said about handloading. I know you have time constraints but if your looking for sub-moa accuracy past 600 yards your going to almost have to handload. Consistency is key in accuracy. Consistent rifle, consistent ammo, consistent shooter is the triad of accuracy. I also bet if you start reloading you'll see an improvement in your 5R milspec, so much so you probably won't even need to spend that chunk of change on something like a GAP.

Quote:
I guess another way to frame the question is, what is the best accuracy I can get with a rifle with factory ammo on any caliber at 600-1000 yards.
I'm going to say speaking strictly factory you was on the right track with the 6.5 creedmoor and the Savage 12 LRP. If I was constricted to only factory offerings then that's what I would choose as well.
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Old April 13, 2014, 12:43 PM   #12
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How about a GAP in 6.5x47 and shooting Lapua ammo. Hiting a 6" target at 1000 yards isn't going to happen every time even with the most accurate gun
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Old April 13, 2014, 09:37 PM   #13
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You guys obviously know absolutely nothing about Team Savage. That team was formed totally independent of the company and stayed that way for several years. It wasn't until Savage noticed what they were doing with their stock rifles that they got involved.

I included a statement from a member of Team Savage in my post I referenced in another thread. Did you bother to read that? Clearly you didn't. The statement is from Monte Milanuk. It's posted below. I know the board he posts on. It shouldn't be hard to find if you want to go ask him the same question he's been asked 1000 times from other doubters. I just don't get why people think they can assume things without having any evidence to back those things. You couldn't be more wrong in your conclusions. Team Savage was not something Savage Arms put together. And they absolutely do use stock rifles in some cases and what few modifications they make are minor. They use stock triggers and barrels. They made modifications to the cheek piece and one person actually bedded his rifle. That's what the statement says. Until you come up with proof they are lying I know who I'm believing.

Not only that but I have a Savage rifle very much like those rifles used by Team Savage. It shoots better than any rifle I've ever picked up. And I've been shooting for over 50 years.

But just for the record I'll include that Monte Milanuk statement in this thread too since you guys think you can assume facts out of thin air.

"The 12 F/TR rifles we've been using since 2007 started out, and still are, pretty much stock. Not exactly 'bone' stock anymore, but nothing earth-shattering or out of the reach of someone else with one of these rifles.

When I received my 12 F/TR in July 2007 it had already been in someone else's possession previously. So far as I know, all that had been done to it up to that point was a skim coat bedding job using Devcon. The barrel was original, the Target AccuTrigger was stock, and it still had that hideous 'lump' of a cheekpiece.

Due to a mistake on my part remounting the scope between a match here in the Pacific North West, and the SOA/FCNC that year, I ended up augmenting the cheekpiece with some foam padding and a fair amount of duct tape. I used the same stuff to add a bit to the LOP - which didn't work so well. It would compress easily under recoil, and bop me on my glasses every few shots. Still, I think the results were pretty good regardless

At that point if I recall correctly, a couple of the others were running Tubb adjustable buttplates, albeit somewhat modified (lightened) to make weight. One person eventually bedded their rifle, a couple eventually went to the Karsten adjustable saddle cheekpiece that I mounted on mine after 2007, and one person (Darrell Buell) to this day still has not done *anything* to his rifle - no bedding, still uses that factory cheek piece (yuck!), nada. If you've kept track of how we've done as a group, well, Darrell's performance has been a strong testament to the capability of the rifle as it comes from the factory. Prior to Bisley this year I sent my bolt off to Gre-Tan to have the firing pin hole bushed in hopes of buying a little insurance against pierced primers if some water got in the chamber. As it turned out, it was more a matter of 'when', not 'if', and the mod paid for itself several times.

Along the way we had an opportunity to have the rifles re-barreled at the factory - several members of the team were going back for a tour, and to take a factory armorer's course. Mine got re-barreled along with the rest, and shipped back (along with the 'old' barrel (#1); made dang sure of that!). Long story made very short, the new barrel (#2) got sent back because of some problems, and a new one sent out (#3). After the 2008 season, we had another talk and I ended up with barrels #4 & #5. After a thorough scrutiny with the borescope, #4 got mounted on the gun. Anyone who thinks that we aren't getting 'factory' barrels is more than welcome to bring your borescope and take a look down the pipe on one of these and draw your own conclusions

Now that I've once again spent a fair amount of time defending that the Savage rifles we've shot up to this point have been basically stock - with some minor modifications made at our own expense - and that the barrels are most certainly standard factory issue... let me add the caveat that what we may be using in the future may *not* be something you can find a direct match for in a catalog. Oh, it will most likely use standard parts (haven't been able to talk them into letting me stick a Rock or Brux barrel on there... yet) but the configuration may be something a little non-standard. The 12 F/TR rifle still shoots like a friggin' hammer when you get it dialed in - as evidenced by the pile o' goodies we brought back from Bisley with them - but F/TR is evolving. Subtly, but it is changing. Whether what we use ends up filtering back into the product line (gee, there's an idea...) remains to be seen."


There's more to his posts than this. He gives a complete history of the team among other things. Just for the record they started out as the first ever United States F-T/R Team just FYI. Savage didn't come along until much later. Years later.

Last edited by Cee Zee; April 13, 2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old April 13, 2014, 09:56 PM   #14
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Mine got re-barreled along with the rest, and shipped back (along with the 'old' barrel (#1); made dang sure of that!). Long story made very short, the new barrel (#2) got sent back because of some problems, and a new one sent out (#3). After the 2008 season, we had another talk and I ended up with barrels #4 & #5. After a thorough scrutiny with the borescope, #4 got mounted on the gun.
this seems to be some of what the above posters are referring to. sure, they are factory parts, but they are cherry picked and assembled in custom shop fashion. neither of which is an option to someone buying an off the shelf rifle.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:09 PM   #15
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But if you're buying a Savage rifle and the factory barrel isn't as accurate as it should be you can just switch to a good aftermarket one. Even then it will cost a lot less than a custom gun.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:15 PM   #16
back40
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jerkface11, this is true. however, how much accuracy can you wring out of a gun without using custom handloads?

the 5Rs i've seen are right round .25moa. if we knew whether the OP was capable of that at 100yds or not would give us some indication of his basic ability. also, the optic and mounting system come into play at the longer ranges he's referencing.

if you aren't going to use handloads, that seems like it will be THE limiting factor. i would venture a guess that one could see better accuracy with factory rifles shooting handloads than with a custom rifle shooting factory ammo. of course there are no absolutes.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:18 PM   #17
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I wouldn't even try to shoot for accuracy with factory ammo.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:47 PM   #18
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this seems to be some of what the above posters are referring to. sure, they are factory parts, but they are cherry picked and assembled in custom shop fashion. neither of which is an option to someone buying an off the shelf rifle.
Did you see where he said that he wished he had stayed with the original barrel because it shot great? I guess that part was in the rest of his post. You can read the whole thing on this web page if you're interested. He also said that they were using Savage barrels which alone makes their rifles unique in the world of F Class and F/TR. And from experience I know that a barrel that might not shoot perfect without a break in period may shoot much better after the nubs have been knocked down. That was the way my rifle went.

Still this proves my point that the Remington 700 is NOT the only rifle being used in competitions. It isn't the most accurate out of the box rifle either or not most of the time IMO. They were always known as rifles that had to be tweaked. That's why so many gunsmiths trash talked the Savages and other rifles because they were all trained to tweak 700's. And suddenly there was a lot less call for their work. I saw the same thing among mechanics back when Japanese cars first became a big hit in America. For years junk yards would get mad and hang up if you asked them if they had so much as a tail light lens for a Japanese car. They were all trained to work on small block Chevy motors and the equivalent Ford motors. They didn't want Japanese cars to be popular. They wanted people to still ask for a bore and stroke job on their small block Chevy engine. They wanted to build cars for Ma and Pa Kettle instead of the dedicated gear heads who wanted to race. I know guys who "still" don't like Japanese cars because of that. It's not surprising that gun smiths, who learned to make the 700 sing, weren't happy with those Savage rifles that people could rebarrel themselves even changing caliber with a few tools that were easy to get. Heck we saw the US car companies start building cars that required specialized tools because they wanted mechanics to have to stay loyal to their brands enough to invest in specialized tools.

I'll stand by what I said about the idea that the 700 is the be all and end all of accuracy is old school thinking. It doesn't apply anymore even if it is possible to make a 700 into a great shooter. Most people go with custom actions if they want a custom gun these days. And one of the actions they buy comes from Savage. Savage took the technology developed by shooters and incorporated it into their factory builds. That's how they ended up with factory rifles shooting like custom built rifles. It was a method that worked out great for Savage while Remington was sadly dropping off in quality.

I still like Remington rifles. Remember I said I nearly bought more than one 700. I came very close to getting a Sendero but it was well used and I figured it would need a new barrel which made the price too high. I bought a Savage instead and I haven't regretted it one second.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:48 PM   #19
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The key to long range accuracy is good ammo. Unless you have a defective rifle you should be able to find a hand load to give the accuracy you need. A good gunsmith can tune the rifle you have. I think that is true regardless of the brand rifle. Not that there is anything wrong with trying the Savage, they are good rifles, but custom rifle will of course be better than either.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:53 PM   #20
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cee zee, it seems this post is in the wrong thread. no one here mentioned the 700 being the "be all end all" of accurate rifles.

the 5R given all else is up to the task should do just fine, provided it's shooting a load that it likes. no reason to switch rifles.
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Old April 13, 2014, 11:00 PM   #21
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Cee Zee, that Remington's all have to be tweaked to shot well is simply not true.
Yes in some cases they do shoot better tuned especially back in the day. Yes Savage like all other brands have upped their game and all shoot better out of the box than they did years ago. But please, I think the fanboy posts are getting out of hand. You are better than that.
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Old April 13, 2014, 11:17 PM   #22
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Ok we get it, Team Savage are shooting GODS. <insert Howard Dean scream>

OP, I have handled and shot both Surgeon built rifles and Savage rifles. While the Savage has a reputation for accuracy the fit, finish, smoothness and overall quality of the Surgeon was light years better. But the owner had it built for a specific purpose and spent the money to get what he wanted.

The Savage, or even your Remington, can be made to shoot well. At those ranges your ammo and glass are as important as anything else. You will either have to start reloading or paying for match ammo.

Good glass is also a major factor. Cheap glass will not cut it. Invest in the best glass you can afford. Or save up so that you can buy something up to the shooting you have in store.
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Old April 13, 2014, 11:35 PM   #23
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I believe GAP actions are built by Defiance
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Old April 14, 2014, 12:40 AM   #24
Cee Zee
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Ok we get it, Team Savage are shooting GODS. <insert Howard Dean scream>
I don't recall saying anything like that. All I said was that Savages have in fact "at times" beat custom built rifles. It would be plumb stupid to think they can beat any rifle made. I never said that and I don't believe it. So please don't put words in my mouth. I responded to someone saying that custom builds would "always" be better across the board than factory rifles. That simply isn't true. Not all custom builds are created equal. I just gave an example. (insert sarcastic smirk here).

Quote:
cee zee, it seems this post is in the wrong thread. no one here mentioned the 700 being the "be all end all" of accurate rifles.
That was actually a reference to a post in another thread. And those exact words weren't said but it was close enough. Sometimes being old means forgetting which thread you're in. Oops!
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Old April 14, 2014, 01:26 AM   #25
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I don't recall saying anything like that. All I said was that Savages have in fact "at times" beat custom built rifles. It would be plumb stupid to think they can beat any rifle made. I never said that and I don't believe it. So please don't put words in my mouth. I responded to someone saying that custom builds would "always" be better across the board than factory rifles. That simply isn't true. Not all custom builds are created equal. I just gave an example. (insert sarcastic smirk here).
CZ, sorry I offended you, didn't intend to. And yes I did indeed read your links, I recall statements of cherry-picked OEM parts like I mentioned. Did you read what I wrote or just assumed I was spouting off nonsense because it didn't align with your thoughts and opinions? Sure TS has been around before savage picked them up. If you don't think they're leveraging TS as a marketing ploy then you obviously don't know anything about marketing. See what I did there?

Let me summarize my thoughts and opinions here, cause this is the final comment I'll make toward this would-be debate your insisting on. Is team savage using rifles with all OEM parts? Absolutely! Are they cherry-picking the parts? Absolutely! So when care is given and only the best OEM parts are used then you can have great success with a "factory" rifle.


However. This is important so make sure you're really paying attention to this part. However when accuracy is concerned consistency is key. When you go the custom route your paying all that extra money for tighter tolerances, a way higher standard of quality control and more labor hours to ensure everything is consistent and the higher standard is met. This is why it takes months to get a custom rifle, cause they make sure everything is as consistent as possible before it leaves the shop. Savage churns out 100s a day, with mass production compromises have to be met. some corners have to be cut to hit price point and demand. Tolerances are greater and quality control isn't as high. To deny this is simply ignorance.

Like I said before I'm actually a huge fan of savage rifles. They have a design that just works and is very accurate. But to say a savage rifle is on par with a GAP/Surgeon/Stiller, etc... Is just asinine. Apples to oranges, yugo to lambo, I could go on but I don't feel the need.

Once again I apologize for striking a nerve, how about we both accept each other's different opinion and agree to disagree?
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