Quantcast
Defensive Ammunition 101 - Page 4 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Shotguns

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 8, 2012, 12:59 AM   #76
LeonCarr
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 20, 2003
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 3,312
For over 100 years the ammunition specified for 12 Gauge shotgun use by the United States Armed Forces is 00 Buckshot, not birdshot.

In 99% of Law Enforcement Agencies in the USA and probably worldwide the issue 12 Gauge shotgun ammunition is 00 Buckshot, not birdshot.

Why do most professional shotgun users use 00 Buckshot? because it works.

Birdshot is for birds.

If Joe Dirtbag, 6'4" 350 loaded up on crystal meth breaks into your house at 0200 with the intent on stealing all of your possessions and killing you and your family, why do people insist on using a load that works on Dove and Quail but will not reliably penetrate to the vital organs on a human being?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
__________________
"If you attempt to leave, or play any games, I will TAZER you and watch Supernanny while you drool into the carpet." - Agent Coulson to Tony Stark in Iron Man 2
LeonCarr is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 07:43 AM   #77
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
Well put, leon....
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old July 17, 2012, 09:13 PM   #78
beeb173
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 15, 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 189
What happened to the thread with the guy from Gun Blast advocating birdshot in some circumstances? I'm pretty sure it was in the shotgun section.
beeb173 is offline  
Old July 17, 2012, 09:52 PM   #79
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,889
Quote:
You're making a lot of assumptions. I never said underpenitration was an advantage. I don't live in an apartment. I don't care about damaging my big screen. Where are you getting any of this?
Birdshot does more than enough damage and has less recoil. I've seen what it does to humans at close range. There aren't enough narcodics in the world to allow a person to keep coming at you if they were shot in the chest, abdomen or face.
Finally, if you would rather shoot buck shot, I won't stop you.
Beeb, I have shared this story several times, but here it is again:

My grandfather was one of the only medical professionals in a small Kansas town in the '50s. As such, he served as a doctor as well as a coroner/medical examiner. I have learned many things from what he has seen, and here is an instance involving birdshot. A man tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest with a load of birdshot. The barrel was pressed up against the center of his chest and he pulled the trigger with his toe. Now, not only did the shot not kill him, it did not even stop him from walking to a neighbor's house in order to get help which was not a short walk (he decided he actually didn't want to die). He was not on drugs or any medication to give him extra strength, and the only significant damage done was the hole in his chest that did not reach any vital organs.

Would he have bled out? Yes, eventually, but if that were an attacker he would have another 45 minutes to kill you and your family before that happened. If you still want to use birdshot for "defense", I really must question whether you are defending your family's right to live, or the BG's right to kill you and then live to tell about it...
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 12:23 AM   #80
beeb173
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 15, 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 189
The shot I bought for 'people' is #2 heavy but still technically bird shot. I'm sure the vast majority of shotgun survivors are from the smallest loads from a distance. I'm not gonna change anyone's mind here. Just asking about the Gun Blast thread and if and why it was taken down.

I had it in my head that bb was smaller. My mistake.

Last edited by beeb173; July 18, 2012 at 08:39 AM.
beeb173 is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 12:28 AM   #81
gp911
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: OH
Posts: 1,103
Actually a "bb load" wouldn't be too bad. BB denotes a pretty decent shot size.
gp911 is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 11:10 AM   #82
geo57
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 18, 2003
Location: South Central Nebraska
Posts: 342
My 2 pennies:

A. I would not use birdshot for self defense if I had other choices.

B. See A above

C. Just as the fellow in a few posts ago reported that a charge of # 4's into a turkey had little effect on it, let me share this. A few years ago while pheasant hunting I kicked up a largish coyote and by the time I was on him he was about 15-20 yards from me. I was using a 12 ga. with high brass 2 3/4 " , 7 1/2 size shot, 3 3/4 dram of powder, 1 1/4 oz of lead. The shot rolled and totally disabled him. Barely alive I put him out of his misery with a blast of the same load to his head which blew it to Smitherines.

D. I have no idea of the gauge or load used in a couple of the stories above where guys took blasts at or very close to contact distance in the center chest but it will be a frost warning day in Hell before I believe one could take a full power 12 ga. load of # 2's, #4's or even #6's center mass with the muzzle against him ,him not being extremely heavily clothed ( or armor plated ) and him walking away for a distance sans dramatic effect.

Last edited by geo57; July 18, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
geo57 is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 05:58 PM   #83
Fred Fuller
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: March 26, 2004
Location: AL, NC
Posts: 20,018
One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

The incident above was originally posted with full text and pictures at https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2000/...ide-difference, the site now requires paid membership to see full text articles. The shells used in this incident were #2s...
__________________


MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! -with props to COL John Boyd, USAF
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/john_boyd/
Fred Fuller is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 06:56 PM   #84
geo57
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 18, 2003
Location: South Central Nebraska
Posts: 342
Thanks for posting that Fred. Unless the victim had someone following him ( arranged for in advance ? ) around and taking notes during the entire saga, I'm wonding how something like this can get documented with any degree of accuracy. And If he had someone observing this wouldn't that person have tried to stop proceedings after shot # 1 or after he blew part of his noggin away with shot # 2 and before the feller went 130 something meters for the grand finale ?

The article says shot # 1 missed a rib and passed through but does not state if it was centrally located at all or far off to one side, etc. Shot # 3 describes the sort of damage I have witnessed myself on critters and inatimate objects and to me at least dispells the thinking that full power loads taken to the center chest at contact distance leaves only an ugly surface wound without sufficient damage to reach the boiler room.

Last edited by geo57; July 19, 2012 at 07:04 PM.
geo57 is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 07:14 PM   #85
C0untZer0
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 7, 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,054
On the issue of what size shot, The Firearms Tactical Institute report recommends #1

Quote:
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.

A standard 2 -inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 10:34 PM   #86
One_Jackal
member
 
 
Join Date: January 6, 2012
Posts: 542
Not all shots are perfect. Not all situations are predictable. I prefer buckshot. I am not picky about the size of the pellets. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Even without the optimum load for the situation your chances are pretty good with buckshot.
One_Jackal is offline  
Old July 20, 2012, 12:19 PM   #87
Fred Fuller
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: March 26, 2004
Location: AL, NC
Posts: 20,018
I'm wonding how something like this can get documented with any degree of accuracy

Forensics, I suspect. Blood trails, volume of blood, etc.
__________________


MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! -with props to COL John Boyd, USAF
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/john_boyd/
Fred Fuller is offline  
Old July 29, 2012, 03:58 PM   #88
whatnickname
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 16, 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 195
Stevens 350 / 200 Lumen light

Guthrie-20120729-00013.jpg

My load is 3" 000 buckshot. Hope I never have to use it. Make no mistake, I would not hesitate to do so if forced to defend myself against an intruder.
__________________
"Those individuals that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that didn't."
Thomas Jefferson
whatnickname is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 09:57 PM   #89
Rob0321
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 18, 2012
Location: Broomfield CO
Posts: 90
I just managed to track down some Federal LE #1 Buck with the flight control wad, turns out GT Distributors will ship to active duty military. They are still in transit, and it will probably be two weeks to get to the range, but I'll attempt to put up a range report when I can.
Rob0321 is offline  
Old August 26, 2012, 11:55 PM   #90
Knockdownpower
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 2, 2009
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 76
My defense shotgun is loaded with Hornady TAP 00bk. Very happy with it.
Knockdownpower is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 11:49 AM   #91
Thinker
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 19, 2012
Posts: 9
I don't see the debate here, I mean I see it but I think you have to ignore a lot of logic to rely on anything less than buckshot. I use 00 because I can buy 250 rounds in bulk and practice with the same load I keep in my 500. Now, that said, I know there are other choices in buckshot. I'm not even gonna consider anything less than #4 BUCK. I have shot at different target media and bird shot sucks for penetration. OK if its all ya got then so be it. Hey if all I had was my Ruger MKIII I would use it too, but when I hear people say they intend to protect themselves with bird shot I fear for them. Now, I am off to dig up all the info I can on other buckshot sizes.
Thinker is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 09:58 AM   #92
lemaymiami
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 15, 2010
Posts: 1,039
for the fellow that wondered how the sequence of shots could be determined for that suicide that needed three pops before hitting the dinger....

As a retired cop that's been involved in numerous gunshot cases (of all...only one was mine....) the state of the art regarding forensics and gunshot wounds, blood spatter evidence, etc. is very, very good. Where I worked is actually where they figured out that wood dowels inserted into impact points in walls with an interior shooting could give extremely accurate trajectory info (nothing like south Florida in the seventies and early eighties for a great variety of gunshot wounds....). I was actually on the scene of the first killing where the shooter's fingerprints were actually taken directly off of the body of the woman killed (and it buried him for a triple homicide).

In short the state of the art on gunshot forensics is so good that anyone tempted to lie about the where, how, and manner of any shooting should think long and hard about straying from the truth.... at least that's my opinion (and with the shotgun and ammo used you can even tell just how far away the shooter was when the shot was fired....).
lemaymiami is offline  
Old October 21, 2012, 05:47 PM   #93
hwmoore
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Posts: 36
#4 buck

I always used #4 it patterned well at the range I expected to be using it at, penetrated enough to reach critical areas, increased shot count over 00 (27 verses 9) 2 3/4 shells all though some say the smallest you should use is #1 buck
hwmoore is offline  
Old October 21, 2012, 07:34 PM   #94
LuvMyGuns
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 8, 2012
Location: Long Island
Posts: 33
2 3/4 00 buck - it kills
__________________
Remington 700 .308, Savage 110GXP3 30-06, Remington Genesis 50 cal ML, Savage 64F, Remington 597, Ruger 10/22, Stoeger M3500, Smith & Wesson 1020, Iticha M66 12ga, New england Firearms Pardner 20ga, Mossberg 500 12ga....... they make me happy
LuvMyGuns is offline  
Old October 22, 2012, 02:50 PM   #95
beeb173
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 15, 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 189
i, like many on this site, get pumped when this thread is active!
beeb173 is offline  
Old November 10, 2012, 11:02 PM   #96
stormspotter
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 11, 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 414
I just finished working on a Ted Williams Model 21 (High Standard) pump 12 ga. All I did was remove the poly-choke (it was incorrectly installed and shot to the right) and take the barrel back to 23". I then reinstalled the front bead and then measured the inside diameter of the barrel. It measures right at .700", which if I am not mistaken is about a modified choke.

Using Federal Premium LE Tactical 00 buckshot it will shoot POA and keep all 9pellets in a group slightly larger than a silver dollar at 15 yards. This load uses the Flitecontrol wad and is listed as 1145 fps. I didn't get to shoot at longer distances, as several people were fine tuning their deer rifles last week.

Yes, it will "only" hold 5 rounds, but I just love how smooth the old High Standard made guns are.
__________________
"Republic. I like the sound of the word. It means people can live free, talk free, go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or sober, however they choose. Some words give you a feeling. Republic is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat. The same tightness a man gets when his baby takes his first step, or his baby first shaves, and makes his first sound like a man. Some words can give you a feeling that makes your heart warm. Republic is one of those words." John Wayne in "The Alamo"
stormspotter is offline  
Old November 11, 2012, 09:31 PM   #97
beeb173
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 15, 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 189
why use flight control for self defense applications? why not just use a slug? granted i have never been trained by the military or Thunder Ranch. could someone explain the advantage? thanks.
beeb173 is offline  
Old November 11, 2012, 09:39 PM   #98
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,889
Quote:
why use flight control for self defense applications? why not just use a slug? granted i have never been trained by the military or Thunder Ranch. could someone explain the advantage? thanks.
One word. Penetration.

You do not want to be sending a slug at a perp if you are in a home. 00 buckshot penetrates plenty far as it is. Unless you are going to be shooting through materials to hit the BG, leave the slugs in the box.

(And also you most likely will not be shooting more than 10 yards defensively, so you don't need the added range of the slug)
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old November 23, 2012, 09:19 PM   #99
sfchemist
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 13, 2012
Location: Montana
Posts: 13
Learned a lot from this thread.

Interesting thread that has me re-thinking about what to use in my 12 ga for home defense. My first round was (is) non-lethal followed by four OO buck. I'm now gonna put the non-lethal round in my gun cabinet and for now load 5 rounds of OO. The Winchester PDX1-12 looks interesting and I'll be looking into that very soon.

Thanks to everyone for a lively discussion of opinions and ideas.
__________________
If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.
- Dalai Lama, Tibet

Last edited by sfchemist; November 23, 2012 at 09:46 PM.
sfchemist is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 01:25 PM   #100
spotch
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 29, 2011
Posts: 145
It stinks that 20 gauge has so few buckshot options from manufacturers
spotch is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.