Defensive Ammunition 101 - Page 6

Fryerpower · February 12, 2013, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubba in ca

20 gauge buck is easily available online.

Link? Every place I have been lists it, but is out of stock.

Jim

RetiredUSNChief · February 12, 2013, 06:28 AM

Good string. I especially like the first couple pages which was essentially discussing what amounts to the use of deadly force and the interpretation of what stopping an attack entails.

Those of use who have served in the military learned that deadly force is that amount of force which I know, or should know, will cause serious bodily harm or death, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. And we learned all the times when deadly force is authorized...but the only time it's really applicable to us as civilians is when you fear for your life or the life of another. (Yes, I'm perfectly aware that many states allow the protection of property here...that's a legal distinction. In my opinion, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's always the moral or ethical thing to do. I leave that as your call, based on your own laws and morals.)

The key here is "fear for your life or the life of another".

To that end, we don't draw a weapon on another human being unless we truely believe it's a "him or me" situation...that either yourself or another human being is going to suffer serious bodily harm or death if you do not.

Yes, the mere fact that you have drawn a weapon MAY deter the aggressor.

Yes, the mere fact that you may shoot and miss MAY deter the aggressor.

Yes, the mere fact that you may wound MIGHT deter the aggressor.

But these things are incidental to the decision to apply deadly force and they cannot be depended upon. When circumstances conspire to the point where the weapon is drawn, you're saying that applying deadly force is REQUIRED. And THAT is the mind set which is required until the threat no longer exists.

When attacked in such a life-threatening scenario, you don't have time, nor any business, to do anything but apply the maximum amount of force you are able, in the most effective way possible.

If, during this process, the attack is stopped without involving a death...great. Then the need for deadly force at that time no longer exists and it should no longer be applied. (Though you should be on your guard.)

I love the OP because it focuses on the reality of what it means to effectively and reliably apply deadly force with a shotgun. You don't go half-measures, because anything less than deadly is not something that you can rely upon. You don't rely on folk tales about home loaded rounds with dimes or salt. You don't use unproven ammunition obviously hyped for marketing purposes.

And you DON'T go into an application of deadly force expecting less than deadly means to work, nor do you do it believing that the law will look upon you fondly if you do.

I prefer 00 buck in my 12 ga. I will use whatever I have handy, regardless. And I will not stop applying deadly force (by any means) until the threat is ended or I am no longer able to defend myself.

Inebriated · February 14, 2013, 10:20 PM

Tried that 3" 4 Buck today.

Far too much recoil for a home defense load, and the pattern wasn't anything impressive.

Back to good old 00 for me.

hwmoore · February 15, 2013, 10:49 AM

3 inch would be too much for me also, I limit myself to 2 3/4 #4 buck , 00 buck and slugs. As far as I'm concerned I see no need for a 3 inch shell but then I'm not shooting ducks or turkeys

Fryerpower · February 15, 2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwmoore

3 inch would be too much for me also, I limit myself to 2 3/4 #4 buck , 00 buck and slugs. As far as I'm concerned I see no need for a 3 inch shell but then I'm not shooting ducks or turkeys

I'll keep that in mind if I am ever given the opportunity to buy some buckshot.

Since the largest shot I can find is #5 turkey I will stick with a 3 inch shell to give those little suckers as much umph as I can.

Someday things will get better and I will be able to get some buckshot.

Jim

Inebriated · February 16, 2013, 02:15 AM

Well I got 3" because that's all there was. I usually use 2-3/4" anyway. Might get some 2-3/4" #4 and #1 Buck, but... ehh... I'm happy with 00 as it sits.

Fryerpower · February 16, 2013, 03:34 PM

Stopped by the Coop today for hay and found out they sell ammo!

I'm up to 3", #4 turkey shot!

Little by little I'm getting closer to buckshot!

Jim

Inebriated · February 16, 2013, 06:14 PM

I think Natchezss has some 3" 000 20 gauge, if you're interested.

At least when I looked a couple days ago.

Fryerpower · February 16, 2013, 07:58 PM

Great price on a box of 2 3/4", 20 Ga, #3 buck. $4.49 for 5 rounds. Shipping TOTALLY sucks! $18.33 for one box by UPS ground!

Jim

Inebriated · February 17, 2013, 01:58 AM

UPS seems pricier than usual. Midway wanted $19 to ship a holster, a Glock connector, and a small powder scale... Boyd's wanted $18 to ship two screws for my Savage.

Fryerpower · March 6, 2013, 06:23 PM

Success! LGS had 2-3/4 inch, 20 GA, #3 buckshot for $4.99 per 5 round box.

Jim

undeRGRound · March 24, 2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beeb173

i, like many on this site, get pumped when this thread is active!

Alrighty Then!

Lots of good info here, but I was wondering if there is a good "practice"
round that won't break the bank... Saw a case (250) of #7 birdshot for
$70 (Estate Brand) and wondered if it would be a waste of time? Different
recoil ot just totally different patterning? LMK!

Inebriated · March 25, 2013, 03:07 AM

You definitely want to practice with what you're going to use, when it comes to shotguns. You'll find that everything patterns differently, so try to train with what you are going to use. I used to use Federal XM12700 before it went up in price. Used to be $99 for 175 rounds plus a new ammo can. Now I think it's about $150. IF you can find it in-stock. Of course if you're into the FliteControl stuff, that's a little harder to buy in bulk or for a good price.

And fyi, you can get 100 round boxes of birdshot for $20 at walmart. 3 of them would be $60 and you'd get 300 rounds.

jdh · March 25, 2013, 01:00 PM

To the Slug guys, If I am going to launch a single projectile I prefer to to it from a platform designed for that purpose. Some thing with sights and rifling.

At across the room distances shot size is less important than shot placement. The room broom myth has led many to believe all they have to do it stick the muzzle in a crack in a door an anything in the room will be hit. Not so. At 10 to 20 feet the shot will still be tightly bunched you need to aim. Point an pray is not going to cut it.

undeRGRound · March 25, 2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inebriated

You definitely want to practice with what you're going to use, when it comes to shotguns. You'll find that everything patterns differently, so try to train with what you are going to use. I used to use Federal XM12700 before it went up in price. Used to be $99 for 175 rounds plus a new ammo can. Now I think it's about $150. IF you can find it in-stock. Of course if you're into the FliteControl stuff, that's a little harder to buy in bulk or for a good price.

And fyi, you can get 100 round boxes of birdshot for $20 at walmart. 3 of them would be $60 and you'd get 300 rounds.

Thx Man!

I will practice with the intended use ammo!

Inebriated · March 26, 2013, 11:41 PM

Yup. The nice thing about shotguns is that it doesn't really matter what you shoot (wally world birdshot aside), it's all expensive. So no reason NOT to shoot what you plan to use lol.

Eb1 · March 27, 2013, 12:19 AM

Well. Our home is protected by 20 gauge #3 buckshot. Longest shot to defend my family is 40 feet..

Pray we are all safe from predators.

ZVP · May 9, 2013, 12:33 PM

I biught a sweet Sroger 20 ga SxS as a back-up gun for ny 12 ga bd especally because both the wife and I have weak left sholders from injuries. At the beginning of this string I read that you should use no buckshot larger THAN #2 in a 20 ga! Right now #4 is really hard to find with the ammo panic.
as I said. the 20 is a back-up and loaded with a heavy #4 Phesant load, does some real damage at 15 ft! The wife can handle the recoil of the plesant shooting Uplander So untill I find that #4 Buckshot we will have to use it with Phesant loads and slugs (I dunno about her and slugs???)
I just mounted a slip-om KickEEZ. I opted for the slip-on because in the past slip-on's have giben me a better recoil reduction. It;s like the air pocket adds to the dampening effect! Heck. get all you can when it comes to recoil reduction!
The Stoger SxS came with a good factory mounted pad that honestly reduces Target loads and
felt recoil to that of my RWS 52 Magnum Air rifle!
Teamwork seems to be the answer to home defense for us!
I foresee the need for some pretty well thought out pratice.
We have to divide the house into defensible quadrents. Teamwork!
ZVP

February 12, 2013, 06:28 AM	#127
RetiredUSNChief Member Join Date: July 9, 2012 Location: East Coast Posts: 649	Good string. I especially like the first couple pages which was essentially discussing what amounts to the use of deadly force and the interpretation of what stopping an attack entails. Those of use who have served in the military learned that deadly force is that amount of force which I know, or should know, will cause serious bodily harm or death, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. And we learned all the times when deadly force is authorized...but the only time it's really applicable to us as civilians is when you fear for your life or the life of another. (Yes, I'm perfectly aware that many states allow the protection of property here...that's a legal distinction. In my opinion, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's always the moral or ethical thing to do. I leave that as your call, based on your own laws and morals.) The key here is "*fear for your life* or the life of another". To that end, we don't draw a weapon on another human being unless we truely believe it's a "him or me" situation...that either yourself or another human being is going to suffer serious bodily harm or death if you do not. Yes, the mere fact that you have drawn a weapon MAY deter the aggressor. Yes, the mere fact that you may shoot and miss MAY deter the aggressor. Yes, the mere fact that you may wound MIGHT deter the aggressor. But these things are incidental to the decision to apply deadly force and they cannot be depended upon. When circumstances conspire to the point where the weapon is drawn, you're saying that applying deadly force is REQUIRED. *And THAT is the mind set which is required until the threat no longer exists.* When attacked in such a life-threatening scenario, you don't have time, nor any business, to do anything but apply the maximum amount of force you are able, in the most effective way possible. If, during this process, the attack is stopped without involving a death...great. Then the need for deadly force at that time no longer exists and it should no longer be applied. (Though you should be on your guard.) I love the OP because it focuses on the reality of what it means to effectively and reliably apply deadly force with a shotgun. You don't go half-measures, because anything less than deadly is not something that you can rely upon. You don't rely on folk tales about home loaded rounds with dimes or salt. You don't use unproven ammunition obviously hyped for marketing purposes. And you DON'T go into an application of deadly force expecting less than deadly means to work, nor do you do it believing that the law will look upon you fondly if you do. I prefer 00 buck in my 12 ga. I will use whatever I have handy, regardless. And I will not stop applying deadly force (by any means) until the threat is ended or I am no longer able to defend myself. __________________ "Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." Ash - Army of Darkness http://youtu.be/0xwzdd-Slo8 I'm the guy with a cannon, too: http://youtu.be/X6xhYELYVDw

February 14, 2013, 10:20 PM	#128
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	Tried that 3" 4 Buck today. Far too much recoil for a home defense load, and the pattern wasn't anything impressive. Back to good old 00 for me. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

February 15, 2013, 10:49 AM	#129
hwmoore Member Join Date: March 10, 2011 Posts: 35	3 inches is too much 3 inch would be too much for me also, I limit myself to 2 3/4 #4 buck , 00 buck and slugs. As far as I'm concerned I see no need for a 3 inch shell but then I'm not shooting ducks or turkeys

February 16, 2013, 02:15 AM	#131
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	Well I got 3" because that's all there was. I usually use 2-3/4" anyway. Might get some 2-3/4" #4 and #1 Buck, but... ehh... I'm happy with 00 as it sits. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

February 16, 2013, 03:34 PM	#132
Fryerpower Member Join Date: June 23, 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 420	Stopped by the Coop today for hay and found out they sell ammo! I'm up to 3", #4 turkey shot! Little by little I'm getting closer to buckshot! Jim __________________ An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so. -Gandhi

February 16, 2013, 06:14 PM	#133
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	I think Natchezss has some 3" 000 20 gauge, if you're interested. At least when I looked a couple days ago. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

February 16, 2013, 07:58 PM	#134
Fryerpower Member Join Date: June 23, 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 420	Great price on a box of 2 3/4", 20 Ga, #3 buck. $4.49 for 5 rounds. Shipping TOTALLY sucks! $18.33 for one box by UPS ground! Jim __________________ An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so. -Gandhi

February 17, 2013, 01:58 AM	#135
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	UPS seems pricier than usual. Midway wanted $19 to ship a holster, a Glock connector, and a small powder scale... Boyd's wanted $18 to ship two screws for my Savage. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

March 6, 2013, 06:23 PM	#136
Fryerpower Member Join Date: June 23, 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 420	Success! LGS had 2-3/4 inch, 20 GA, #3 buckshot for $4.99 per 5 round box. Jim __________________ An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so. -Gandhi

March 25, 2013, 03:07 AM	#138
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	You definitely want to practice with what you're going to use, when it comes to shotguns. You'll find that everything patterns differently, so try to train with what you are going to use. I used to use Federal XM12700 before it went up in price. Used to be $99 for 175 rounds plus a new ammo can. Now I think it's about $150. IF you can find it in-stock. Of course if you're into the FliteControl stuff, that's a little harder to buy in bulk or for a good price. And fyi, you can get 100 round boxes of birdshot for $20 at walmart. 3 of them would be $60 and you'd get 300 rounds. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

March 25, 2013, 01:00 PM	#139
jdh Member Join Date: January 5, 2008 Posts: 751	To the Slug guys, If I am going to launch a single projectile I prefer to to it from a platform designed for that purpose. Some thing with sights and rifling. At across the room distances shot size is less important than shot placement. The room broom myth has led many to believe all they have to do it stick the muzzle in a crack in a door an anything in the room will be hit. Not so. At 10 to 20 feet the shot will still be tightly bunched you need to aim. Point an pray is not going to cut it. __________________ The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (10 USC sec 311)

March 26, 2013, 11:41 PM	#141
Inebriated Member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 2,203	Yup. The nice thing about shotguns is that it doesn't really matter what you shoot (wally world birdshot aside), it's all expensive. So no reason NOT to shoot what you plan to use lol. __________________ التكبر يقللل قيمة الحكمة

March 27, 2013, 12:19 AM	#142
Eb1 Member Join Date: January 15, 2008 Posts: 2,091	Well. Our home is protected by 20 gauge #3 buckshot. Longest shot to defend my family is 40 feet.. Pray we are all safe from predators. __________________ Rest in peace, Moille. 5/15/2009

May 9, 2013, 12:33 PM	#143
ZVP Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 350	A little disheartened I biught a sweet Sroger 20 ga SxS as a back-up gun for ny 12 ga bd especally because both the wife and I have weak left sholders from injuries. At the beginning of this string I read that you should use no buckshot larger THAN #2 in a 20 ga! Right now #4 is really hard to find with the ammo panic. as I said. the 20 is a back-up and loaded with a heavy #4 Phesant load, does some real damage at 15 ft! The wife can handle the recoil of the plesant shooting Uplander So untill I find that #4 Buckshot we will have to use it with Phesant loads and slugs (I dunno about her and slugs???) I just mounted a slip-om KickEEZ. I opted for the slip-on because in the past slip-on's have giben me a better recoil reduction. It;s like the air pocket adds to the dampening effect! Heck. get all you can when it comes to recoil reduction! The Stoger SxS came with a good factory mounted pad that honestly reduces Target loads and felt recoil to that of my RWS 52 Magnum Air rifle! Teamwork seems to be the answer to home defense for us! I foresee the need for some pretty well thought out pratice. We have to divide the house into defensible quadrents. Teamwork! ZVP