Mental Health is the Issue, Not Guns and Armed Guards in Schools is not the Solution

[Sam1911]

No, I'm not. And I know I'm risking banning by arguing this here, but I'm willing to risk it. So pig-headed is your stance on mental health.

Please abandon the persecution complex. No one is going to ban you for stating your opinions as long as you remain polite and on topic. Now, if you get too far afield with insulting talk like calling others "pig-headed" ... yeah, you could end up on the wrong end of the stick, so to speak.

I don't doubt that treatments were worse than the disease. But in no other field of medicine are theyforced on the patients.

We seem to be confusing past and present. The field of physical medicine as it exists today is fundamentally different from what it was a century, or two, or more ago. The same is true about mental health. Lobotomies happened, sometimes in an attempt to protect society from extremely dangerous anomalous persons without simply ending that person's life -- as a form of mercy, in other words. (And, unfortunately, to try to "fix" other problems as well -- some of which aren't even considered problems any more.) But they don't happen now. The field of professional medicine will not allow those destructive and harmful practices, because we understand that they do not help, do not cure the fundamental problem.

However, the mental health field is still charged with (among rather a lot of beneficial, voluntary aid to people who feel troubled in life) helping protect society from people who's minds have developed cancerous circuitry that leads them to seek the pain, fear, and death of other people. That is an important and necessary task.

There are stories we read and hear which make us worry that "there but by the grace of God go I," after a fashion, but there's little reason to fear that the mental health field has either the desire or the ability to declare Constitutionally protected rights, interests, and hobbies as de facto reason to lock someone away.

I don't need to be a historian to know that

It does help if you're going to formulate strong opinions about the way things were, compared to the way things are, and why.

[9MMare]

Originally Posted by Alaska444

Way off topic, history has spoken volumes on this atrocities. Easy to find on a simple Google search.

Back to topic, Mental health forensic evaluations of mass killers has identified several common elements such as taking months to plan, speaking to other people about their plans, upper middle class white kids, isolated personalities, etc.

If we are looking at a mental health solution, the answer is in profiling of at risk kids and intervening through several current methods of police work. We already have adequate in patient facilities to lock up all of those found to be a danger to self or others. After all, these are very rare events.

Once again, we don't need to reinvent the wheel or jump off any cliffs to look to potential solutions. Since there is no dragnet that can get every single creep off the streets and out of our schools since many can hide below the radar, allowing CCW in schools like Utah won't break the piggy bank either.

Looking at the root causes of these horrible events, there is much we already know to place directed approaches to preventing these events. Israel uses much of this in their daily lives to detect and prevent terrorist acts. This is just a different version of that risk.

Thank you. Please dont bother taking the time to 'police' my posts and tell me what I should and shouldnt address.

Also, you are addressing your mental health comments to the wrong person, as I've not questioned this focus.

[9MMare]

[QUOTE=tpaw;8604643]9MMare asks:

[Do you have that same attitude about govt paid health care? Or even welfare? Spending more in our child protective services agencies?QUOTE]

Lets try it this way:

Gov't paid health care: We already have Medicare and Medicaid

Welfare: That's a given, it's out there.

Child protective services: Also a given, it's out there.

As for my attitude towards the above programs, yes, I do believe that those programs are needed, but with strict monitering which unfortunately is not being done. I don't know what can be done to resolve it, simply because (Like any large organization) there will always be some form of corruption within those organizations. But to deny those who would really need that type of assistance would not be an intelligent alternative.
I hope this answers your question.

Thank you.

And by your thinking, then since we already have armed guards in many schools, we're good then? Perhaps examine where more might be truly needed, and left up to the school?

[9MMare]

You are a bit closer to what I've posted a couple of times.

it's not *just* gun-free zones and it's not just the govt creating them. Many private businesses and institutions have them as well...in some states legal, in some states they do not carry the wt of law.

And crimes happen anyway. Banks are a prime example. They have armed guards and in many states are NOT gun-free zones). It's about motivation. If someone is motivated strongly enough (& then compounds that with strategy)...they do not care if there are or may be guns.

The Ft. Hood shooting is a good example also. So is the Gifford's shooting where there was armed security. Crazy is crazy....but there can be very strong motivation behind it.

Originally Posted by X-Rap

So how about sporting events where emotions also run very high for some. There are many emotionals events that may effect us on a daily basis, I hate to think that we should be dissarmed for them all.
Gun free zones are themselves caused by emotion, the ones I know of have very little difference with free to carry zones aside from the emotional one.
Having a gun at school is no different than one in a crowded theater, resturant, mall, church, sporting event, college campus or zoo except the emotional tie with it being populated primarily with kids. We must either believe in the right or not and quit trying to sort out special circumstances.

[WSM MAGNUM]

Jeff White says;
Mental Health is the Issue, Not Guns and Armed Guards in Schools is not the Solution

Putting armed guards in all schools would be prohibitively expensive and it's just not a reasonable response to a small threat. The costs would greatly outweigh the benefits.

I have thought a lot about this issue for years. It is very real to me. When I was a police officer in a small rural town I knew that most likely I would be on my own in an active shooter situation, too much time would elapse before another officer could arrive to go in with me. Just the way things are.

One of my duties in my current job with the sheriffs office is being in charge of security at the courthouse. I know how expensive real security is. I know this is going to sound cold in this emotionally charged atmosphere, but the risk of an active shooter in every school in America does not justify the cost of properly trained and equipped armed security. We already spend more per capita on education then any other industrialized nation.

I am an NRA life member and I will not readily give up anything in a futile attempt to stop mass shootings. But the more I think about it, the more I have to dismiss the proposal to put armed officers in every school as prohibitively expensive.

What can we do then? Gun control will solve nothing, we can't afford to harden our schools and staff them with armed security forces. The solution that has the greatest benefit for our society is to fix our broken mental health system. Back in the 1980s we (as a society) decided that treating the mentally ill by institutionalizing them was cruel and inhumane. And it was expensive. States closed most of their mental hospitals and sanitariums. Advocacy groups pushed an agenda of mainstreaming the mentally ill.

Suddenly we were having a "homeless" problem. Why? Many of the mentally ill who lost their homes in the state run institutions couldn't handle being "mainstreamed". The number of them I dealt with who just refused to avail themselves of the shelter and government housing programs and preferred to live on the street just amazed me. Today our jails are full of mentally ill people who have committed crimes, felonies and misdemeanors both. In many cases they a found unfit to stand trial and committed to a mental institution. The problem is, there are so few beds that they often sit in isolation cells in the county jail for months waiting for a bed to open up. The judges here have taken to issuing a Rule to Show Cause summons to the directors of the state hospitals ordering them to show up in court and explain why these people are still sitting in the county jail months after the court ordered them committed to the Department of Human Services. Usually a bed comes available within hours of the institution being served with one of these orders.

Would fixing our mental health system stop all mass shootings? No, of course not. But I think it would lower the risk tremendously and have the other positive effect of dealing with the homeless problem and the jail overcrowding problem. The benefits to society would be worth the cost.

I'm not sure how much national coverage this story got, but several weeks ago it's possible that a mass shooting was thwarted when the parents of a troubled young man who seems to share many of the problems the sandy Hook shooter had (I will not use his name here), contacted police after he bought an AR15 rifle at Wal-Mart.

As Wayne has said, mental health is a problem that needs to be dealt with. And he did not say that having armed security in our schools will be the solution that will stop school killings. Nor will solutions to mental health issues completely stop firearm killings.

If you believe that putting armed security in our schools is cost prohibitive, then why are we not complaining about the cost of security around the President. The costs of security for sports venues. The costs of security for government buildings and media staffers and their offices... and on and on.
Are our children less valuable than they are? Talk about moral standards. I find it appalling that we will complain about costs of security for schools and not about the above mentioned.

To "fix" these society problems, we have to "fix" ourselves. You must turn back to God. How can you expect God`s protection of the school children, and our country, when we have banned prayer and God from the schools.
This country was founded on the biblical covenant and it will not stand if we do not humble ourselves, seek God and ask for God`s forgiveness. We can argue about these gun problems all we want and blame this and that, claim that this will be the solution, but... if you keep ignoring God.... the last days will come quickly!

[CZguy]

One thing to consider, is that a necessary byproduct of living in a free society, is that these type of horrific crimes will exist. Once you accept the concept that the restrictions being proposed, are not worth giving up our freedoms. Then it becomes apparent that the only way to minimize the damage, is to allow lawful concealed carry everywhere, without creating the attraction of a gun free zone.

I know that this wouldn't work for a politician who is under pressure to do something after one of these events. But sometimes the most obvious solution is the most practical.

[9MMare]

Originally Posted by WSM MAGNUM

To "fix" these society problems, we have to "fix" ourselves. You must turn back to God. How can you expect God`s protection of the school children, and our country, when we have banned prayer and God from the schools.
This country was founded on the biblical covenant and it will not stand if we do not humble ourselves, seek God and ask for God`s forgiveness. We can argue about these gun problems all we want and blame this and that, claim that this will be the solution, but... if you keep ignoring God.... the last days will come quickly!

The God I was raised with and pray to would never allow kids to die because of my or anyone else's shortcomings. And I dont remember there being any law that families cant pray at home and at church. I dont remember anything in the Bible about only being protected where you pray.

[CZguy]

To "fix" these society problems, we have to "fix" ourselves. You must turn back to God. How can you expect God`s protection of the school children, and our country, when we have banned prayer and God from the schools.
This country was founded on the biblical covenant and it will not stand if we do not humble ourselves, seek God and ask for God`s forgiveness. We can argue about these gun problems all we want and blame this and that, claim that this will be the solution, but... if you keep ignoring God.... the last days will come quickly!

I believe that this is a very good point. But with faith in America declining for the last fifty years, I'm not sure that we can turn the tide around.

[CZguy]

The God I was raised with and pray to would never allow kids to die because of my or anyone else's shortcomings.

If you take a step back for a moment and think about it, God allowed the carnage of WWII. That's what free will is all about.

We have discussed many possible solutions in this thread. I don't see why getting back to a more morale way of living couldn't be considered a viable solution.

[BSA1]

I'll give you a court room with violent offenders needs to have restriction of weapons just like a jail or prison does andee if that is your argument for gun free areas in public buildings like court houses I agree
By that statement you have acquiesced your position of unrestricted carry.

but that is not an emotional reason.

Emotion often overcomes reason. In my previous life I was crisis resolution negotiator or in layman’s terms a hostage negotiator. Often I would work with individuals who have become overwhelmed by the apparent hopelessness of their situation and have lost their ability to think their problem through in a logic, rational manner. My job was too overcome the emotion of their situation and help them use logic problem solving skills.

These type of emotions can overtake rational thinking when someone is angry or in times of high stress such as a divorce. Time or a “cooling off” period often resolves these issues. Since this is a thread dealing with the mentally ill therapy and medicine can help with restoring this level of functioning.

[Jeff White]

We have discussed many possible solutions in this thread. I don't see why getting back to a more morale way of living couldn't be considered a viable solution.

Because you can't legislate morality, nor can you appropriate money to encourage it. One could argue that many government policies have contributed and still contribute to the decline of morality in our society, but that's not an argument that is going to get any traction. After all we all have different standards and ideas of what would be considered living a moral life. I would no more want to live in a society that legislated someone's idea of morality then I want to live in one that tells me what kind of firearms I may own.

You don't have to look any further then the places where the people are forced to live under Sharia law to get an idea of what letting someone else define morality for you is like.

[9MMare]

Originally Posted by CZguy

If you take a step back for a moment and think about it, God allowed the carnage of WWII. That's what free will is all about.

We have discussed many possible solutions in this thread. I don't see why getting back to a more morale way of living couldn't be considered a viable solution.

"Moral".

And I agree. But you can no more force morality on people than you can force someone to use a gun they carry. So as a solution?

[Alaska444]

Originally Posted by WSM MAGNUM

As Wayne has said, mental health is a problem that needs to be dealt with. And he did not say that having armed security in our schools will be the solution that will stop school killings. Nor will solutions to mental health issues completely stop firearm killings.

If you believe that putting armed security in our schools is cost prohibitive, then why are we not complaining about the cost of security around the President. The costs of security for sports venues. The costs of security for government buildings and media staffers and their offices... and on and on.
Are our children less valuable than they are? Talk about moral standards. I find it appalling that we will complain about costs of security for schools and not about the above mentioned.

To "fix" these society problems, we have to "fix" ourselves. You must turn back to God. How can you expect God`s protection of the school children, and our country, when we have banned prayer and God from the schools.
This country was founded on the biblical covenant and it will not stand if we do not humble ourselves, seek God and ask for God`s forgiveness. We can argue about these gun problems all we want and blame this and that, claim that this will be the solution, but... if you keep ignoring God.... the last days will come quickly!

+1, that is where it is all at. All we have to do is read the philosophy of how the constitution was written and implemented by the founding fathers to understand it was written to govern a people governed by the God of the Bible. We have strayed far.

All we further have to do is to read the literal truth of the Bible in what it tells us will happen before the Lord's return. Yes, the answer is to return to the truth of the Bible and seek God (II Chronicles 7:14) However, I know and understand the spiritual condition of the world when Christ returns. Sadly, I don't believe that this nation will repent but I could be wrong. I just don't see it and once again, I believe it is simply a sign of the times.

God bless,

[Alaska444]

Originally Posted by Jeff White

Because you can't legislate morality, nor can you appropriate money to encourage it. One could argue that many government policies have contributed and still contribute to the decline of morality in our society, but that's not an argument that is going to get any traction. After all we all have different standards and ideas of what would be considered living a moral life. I would no more want to live in a society that legislated someone's idea of morality then I want to live in one that tells me what kind of firearms I may own.

You don't have to look any further then the places where the people are forced to live under Sharia law to get an idea of what letting someone else define morality for you is like.

The God of the Bible doesn't dictate morals to individuals either. In the New Testament, God changes lives through being born again and then the desire of that individual is to follow God's laws and commandments and precepts. God does make it clear that we shall all give account. However, I am not sure we are a better nation since getting rid of all of the "blue laws" and other such prohibitions on behavior. The kids today have no sense of what many of us grew up with. I don't believe it hurt us at all.

[Derek Zeanah]

OK, we don't do religion here. If we start getting into a "God of the Bible" versus secular debate I'm shutting this one down.

[Jeff White]

The God of the Bible doesn't dictate morals to individuals either. In the New Testament, God changes lives through being born again and then the desire of that individual is to follow God's laws and commandments and precepts. However, I am not sure we are a better nation since getting rid of all of the "blue laws" and other such prohibitions on behavior. The kids today have no sense of what many of us grew up with. I don't believe it hindered us at all.

Who's bible would you have us legislate into law? There is a little thing called the first amendment which prohibits a state mandated religion. I'm sure that after they complete the shredding of the second amendment they will turn their sights on the first. Do you trust congress to codify a bible into law? The founders didn't. You must remember that many of the earliest European settlers came here looking for the freedom to worship as they saw fit.

I don't think shredding the first amendment will save the second.

[Alaska444]

Originally Posted by Jeff White

Who's bible would you have us legislate into law? There is a little thing called the first amendment which prohibits a state mandated religion. I'm sure that after they complete the shredding of the second amendment they will turn their sights on the first. Do you trust congress to codify a bible into law? The founders didn't. You must remember that many of the earliest European settlers came here looking for the freedom to worship as they saw fit.

I don't think shredding the first amendment will save the second.

I never stated we should legislate the Bible into law. It is an individual issue.

Yes, the constitution did not prohibit state constitutions from requiring Christian faith and belief in the Bible at all. Example, MA state constitution, requirements for governor and his oath of office for instance.

Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

"I, A.B., do declare that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth; and that I am seized and possessed, in my own right, of the property required by the constitution, as one qualification for the office or place to which I am elected."

It was not until the First Amendment was incorporated into the 14th amendment that they began the state and local prohibitions of religious expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorpo...Bill_of_Rights

So, legislating morals is not the answer, I believe that is a common belief. It is up to the individual to seek that within themselves. So far, the majority of Americans reject Christian values today and it is not likely to reverse that trend. Legislating morals is really not the answer at all even though I am a Christian myself.

[Alaska444]

Originally Posted by Derek Zeanah

OK, we don't do religion here. If we start getting into a "God of the Bible" versus secular debate I'm shutting this one down.

Sorry, I thought I was just answering a question on legislating morals. Thank you.

[WSM MAGNUM]

9MMARE SAYS;

The God I was raised with and pray to would never allow kids to die because of my or anyone else's shortcomings. And I dont remember there being any law that families cant pray at home and at church. I dont remember anything in the Bible about only being protected where you pray.

9MMare... it is written as Alaska444 has pointed out, that in the Bible, in 2 Chronicles 7:14... "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

So, you see.... it is evil that drove Adam Lanza to kill all those people. It is evil that is turning our hearts cold and driving us away from God. You cannot expect God`s blessings and protection by continuing to push Him away.

I would like to refer you to a couple of good books that will explain, better than I can, how the American Covenant and 9/11 has so much truth to it on what and why these horrible things are happening today. Of course, if you are not an atheist or agnostic, the Bible should be your first priority. But these 2 books will absolutely amaze and shock you. I believe we lost God`s protection and blessings starting on 9/11. God is trying to send us a message and wake up!

The books are:

The Covenant: One Nation Under God by Timothy Ballard

The Harbinger: The Ancient Mystery That Holds the Secret of America`s Future by Jonathan Cahn

[somerandomguy]

Originally Posted by Jeff White

Putting armed guards in all schools would be prohibitively expensive and it's just not a reasonable response to a small threat. The costs would greatly outweigh the benefits.

I have thought a lot about this issue for years. It is very real to me. When I was a police officer in a small rural town I knew that most likely I would be on my own in an active shooter situation, too much time would elapse before another officer could arrive to go in with me. Just the way things are.

One of my duties in my current job with the sheriffs office is being in charge of security at the courthouse. I know how expensive real security is. I know this is going to sound cold in this emotionally charged atmosphere, but the risk of an active shooter in every school in America does not justify the cost of properly trained and equipped armed security. We already spend more per capita on education then any other industrialized nation.

I am an NRA life member and I will not readily give up anything in a futile attempt to stop mass shootings. But the more I think about it, the more I have to dismiss the proposal to put armed officers in every school as prohibitively expensive.

What can we do then? Gun control will solve nothing, we can't afford to harden our schools and staff them with armed security forces. The solution that has the greatest benefit for our society is to fix our broken mental health system. Back in the 1980s we (as a society) decided that treating the mentally ill by institutionalizing them was cruel and inhumane. And it was expensive. States closed most of their mental hospitals and sanitariums. Advocacy groups pushed an agenda of mainstreaming the mentally ill.

Suddenly we were having a "homeless" problem. Why? Many of the mentally ill who lost their homes in the state run institutions couldn't handle being "mainstreamed". The number of them I dealt with who just refused to avail themselves of the shelter and government housing programs and preferred to live on the street just amazed me. Today our jails are full of mentally ill people who have committed crimes, felonies and misdemeanors both. In many cases they a found unfit to stand trial and committed to a mental institution. The problem is, there are so few beds that they often sit in isolation cells in the county jail for months waiting for a bed to open up. The judges here have taken to issuing a Rule to Show Cause summons to the directors of the state hospitals ordering them to show up in court and explain why these people are still sitting in the county jail months after the court ordered them committed to the Department of Human Services. Usually a bed comes available within hours of the institution being served with one of these orders.

Would fixing our mental health system stop all mass shootings? No, of course not. But I think it would lower the risk tremendously and have the other positive effect of dealing with the homeless problem and the jail overcrowding problem. The benefits to society would be worth the cost.

I'm not sure how much national coverage this story got, but several weeks ago it's possible that a mass shooting was thwarted when the parents of a troubled young man who seems to share many of the problems the sandy Hook shooter had (I will not use his name here), contacted police after he bought an AR15 rifle at Wal-Mart.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...581ab4ac6.html



I would like to know why the Lammers are not guests on every news show. I do know the reason, it's because their story doesn't fit a certain agenda. But this is what we need.

Hey Jeff, thanks for the perspective from a law enforcement personal. My question is, what are the things that you recommend? When I was in High School, all the doors and stuff had a big square(s) of glass in them, I think it's time for door replacements imo. If you could cost efficiently do some stuff to minimize the casualties in another one of these school shootings since armed guards isn't feasible, what would you do?

[JN01]

Because you can't legislate morality

Sure you can. Lots of laws are based on moral views, such as those prohibiting or allowing recreational drugs, gay marriage, abortion, sex ed curriculum in schools, etc. I would argue that laws that deny me the means to self defense are immoral, a pacifist might see the opposite.

Of course, you can't force people to approve or necessarily comply with them, but they can influence the decision making process, particularly those cases where failure to go along leads to jail time.

[Alaska444]

Originally Posted by JN01

Sure you can. Lots of laws are based on moral views, such as those prohibiting or allowing recreational drugs, gay marriage, abortion, sex ed curriculum in schools, etc. I would argue that laws that deny me the means to self defense are immoral, a pacifist might see the opposite.

Of course, you can't force people to approve or necessarily comply with them, but they can influence the decision making process, particularly those cases where failure to go along leads to jail time.

I think you can't legislate morality applies to what you said, you can't get people to be moral themselves based on laws. That is an individual journey. However, I don't believe that the blue laws we had growing up hurt any of us even though I was not at all a Christian at that time in my life.

[481]

Originally Posted by 9MMare

While I would like that to be supported by the 2A...or anywhere else in the Constitution, and I have read a bit on both sides of the argument, I dont really believe that 'concealed carry' is a Constitutional Right (as I have seen supported so far).

I believe that it is up to the states to determine that.

Am I thrilled with that? No, but I cant just deny the interpretations of the Constitution. And I do believe in state's rights. I'm also pretty content with my state's cc and other gun laws. (Altho they are already under grave attack since the Newtown shooting.)

To your point about concealed carry not being a Constitutional Right, I'd offer you this:

Amendment II:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Nowhere within the Second Amendment's substantive language is there a description (or restriction) upon how those arms shall be borne by the class exercising the right being enumerated.

[9MMare]

I find it interesting that some people are implying that morality only comes from religion.

Or that evil is some 'external' force acting on people. Evil comes from WITHIN IMO.

[9MMare]

Originally Posted by 481

To your point about concealed carry not being a Constitutional Right, I'd offer you this:

Amendment II:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Nowhere within the Second Amendment's substantive language is there a description (or restriction) upon how those arm shall be borne by the class exercising the right being enumerated.

I have no argument with that, it's just that I've seen it argued more convincingly (legally) elsewhere. I didnt say I liked it...but I try not to reject things I dont like just because I dont like them.