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Old January 2, 2013, 12:42 AM   #176
Alaska444
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Originally Posted by JohnBT View Post
"Different subject, the man that killed his grandmother was not a sex offender. You are talking apples and oranges"

Not at all. The question asked was how it could be done. I simply pointed out how it has been done. You pass a law, implement it and wait and see what the Supreme Court says. They agreed that it was okay to extend sentences for one group. Now it could just be a matter of expanding it to other groups.

John
America is a land governed by law, or that is the way it is supposed to be. Involuntary detention is not one of those laws nor would I want to live in a nation that has that type of "law." Once again, perhaps set up the Russian or Chinese work camps perhaps.

In all seriousness, America already puts more people in prison for longer sentences than just about all the rest of the world with only a couple of nations with longer prison terms than we have.

There is no way to prevent the return to a violent life of a felon who has served his time.. There is also no way to prevent madmen trying to kill great numbers of people. All you can do is to allow people the right to self defense.
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:15 AM   #177
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There is no "magic bullet" cure for the issue of sick, dangerous folks taking medication that has been proven (by the companies that make them, no less) to cause side effects which are very, very bad to an already troubled mind, and having those patients live among the general public.


What I suggest is a plan that uses several steps to address the risk these patients pose to schools, and the public in general.

A. Allow faculty and staff the option to be trained and armed as a first response to an attack on their school. Policy would be written at the local level and communities would take what steps they think are necessary and pay appropriate taxes to the county they live in. I'm sure many communities would come up with the volunteers, instructors, guns, ammo etc. from within their communities without troubling the fedgov for any money.

B. Educate the public about the risk of the side effects of specific medications, expose the drug companie's efforts that have so far kept these facts from being common knowledge, put the screws to our politicians for ignoring the issue after the last several school shootings. Make sure parents understand that the kids suffering from the side effects of the meds. have no problem using kitchen knives when guns are not available. This is not new news and it is well documented. I believe this is the real fight to focus on right now; answering the question of Why?

C. Build mental hospitals designed to humanely house the patients that are not able to safely live in the general population.
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Old January 2, 2013, 05:53 AM   #178
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I think that is all pretty reasonable responses to the situation.

The trick is going to be trusting our government to choose reasonable and productive actions over knee jerk dumb ones. Even without considering the anti-gun agenda on the left side of American politics, both parties at the federal level seem to have a really hard time admitting they can't legislatively bubble wrap the world.
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Old January 2, 2013, 07:17 AM   #179
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There's mentally ill people like myself, and than there's people like Adam Lanza. NOT all mentally ill people are like Adam Lanza.

Society blames violent video games and horror movies. I've watched violent tv shows and horror movies since I was a toddler. I played violent video games for half of my life. While I did violent things that was only when I was a small child with no responsible parents. That largely became a thing of the past when I was around 11 years old. I still to this day watch violent tv shows and horror movies.

I'm a fairly easy going person. I mainly stay to myself. I talk to people in passing outside.
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Old January 2, 2013, 07:29 AM   #180
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one of the best thread here ever.


I think the US society as a whole must work towards extending their
patriotism towards their fellow citizens .... ... no, that is not communism.


If all the $$$ that go into military and jails would be invested
in infrastructure and education ... the US would really be the
greatest nation in the world.
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Old January 2, 2013, 08:31 AM   #181
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"America is a land governed by law, or that is the way it is supposed to be. Involuntary detention is not one of those laws nor would I want to live in a nation that has that type of "law.""

But we do live here and we do have a law of that type already. Approved by the Supreme Court, too. The question was asked about how sentences could be extended indefinitely in a land that has laws. I answered it and provided links.

John
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Old January 2, 2013, 11:13 AM   #182
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We should also screen Congressmen and public servants for mental health problems, a psychopath in government is more dangerous than a psychopath with a gun, because he is a psychopath with MANY guns
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:33 PM   #183
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Mental Health is the Issue, Not Guns and Armed Guards in Schools is not the Solution

Putting armed guards in all schools would be prohibitively expensive and it's just not a reasonable response to a small threat. The costs would greatly outweigh the benefits.
Do you see the disconnect in the part quoted above and the part quoted below?

Quote:
Back in the 1980s we (as a society) decided that treating the mentally ill by institutionalizing them was cruel and inhumane. And it was expensive.
Add to the cost the suffering of thousands of people who have never committed a crime, and who never will -- but are locked up and kept drugged because someone thinks they might be dangerous.

Now consider this -- these mass shootings rarely occur in a place where there are armed citizens. Why do mass killer pick schools, malls with "no guns" signs, theaters with similar signs, and so on?

We can simply allow concealed carry in schools. We can sweeten the pot by giving a small incentive to school adminstrators and teachers to get their CCWs and carry on the job.
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:39 PM   #184
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But that would only address the extremely rare school shootings. It's a mistake to legislate based on rare, highly sensationalized events. I think we all know other examples of that. In the case of the dangerous insane, though, the bulk of the crimes they commit are more likely to be assaults. They go to jail, everyone knows they're loopy as a bat, but then they go right back out on the street.

I don't think there's a cop or a jailor who doesn't have a dozen stories about dealing with the frothing-at-the-mouth crowd. When they start self-medicating and mix illegal drugs with their RX cocktail, things get really wild. The bottom line is there are thousands on the streets and with ill-equipped families who should be cared for in secured treatment facilities. The shootings just call attention to the larger problem.

That doesn't mean everyone who sees a psych should get locked up. The law truly needs to distinguish between the routinely crazy and those dangerous *TO OTHERS*, because that's the major concern. Not suicide.
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Old January 2, 2013, 07:42 PM   #185
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Cosmoline brings up a very good point!

There are plenty of people attacking kids in school but they use something other than a gun and so it is not treated the same by the politicians, or press.
The link is, again, dangerous meds. and an unstable mind.


Here is a site listing some of the attacks on kids by patients on said meds.
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

This article has some more recent info and links to good resources, books and a couple videos.
Like I said before, this is nothing new.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/school-sh...eutical-drugs/


Here is an archived story from 2001 where the guy used a machete on the kids.
http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_topdoc=1&p_docnum=1&p_sort=YMD_date&p_product=NewsBank&p_text_direct-0=document_id=%28%200EEC85EAA1723741%20%29&p_docid=0EEC85EAA1723741&p_theme=aggregated4&p_queryname=0EEC85EAA1723741&f_openurl=yes&p_nbid=T48V47OFMTM1NzE3MTU0NC43NTc2OTQ6MTo3OnJmLTE1MzI&&p_multi=YDRB


The politicians can't try and play dumb/ignorant of the issue; they even proposed a bill in New York requiring that the crimes committed by persons on these meds. be reported to the Department of Criminal Justice Services.

Here is a nice little tidbit from the article
"Between 2004 and 2011 there have been over 11,000 reports to the U.S. FDAs MedWatch of psychiatric drugs causing violent reactions including 300 cases of homicide, 3,000 cases of mania and 7,000 cases of aggression. By the FDAs own admission, only 1-10% of side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the actual number of side effects occurring are most certainly higher."

http://www.cchrint.org/nybillpsychiatricdruguse/

Here is another item of interest.
"This research, which has been published in peer reviewed publications such as the American Journal of Psychiatry, The Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and The Journal of Forensic Science, has shown, among other things, that: certain drugs can induce mania (a psychosis which can produce bizarre, grandiose and highly elaborated destructive plans, including mass murder); some patients on psychotropic drugs have an increase in suicidal thoughts and/or violent behavior; self-injurious ideation or behavior started or intensified during treatment with a psychotropic drug; users of certain drugs can become aggressive or suffer hallucinations and/or suicidal thoughts; and certain drugs can produce an acute psychotic reaction in an individual not previously psychotic."



I'm not going to waste my efforts on swaying the minds of politicians that have an obvious agenda and are using the current tragedy to manipulate the grief our nation feels over the dead children in our schools.

I'm going to focus on educating the parents about the cause of the violence and bust our politicians out for being bought and paid for by big pharma.
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Old January 2, 2013, 08:05 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Cosmoline View Post
But that would only address the extremely rare school shootings. It's a mistake to legislate based on rare, highly sensationalized events. I think we all know other examples of that. In the case of the dangerous insane, though, the bulk of the crimes they commit are more likely to be assaults. They go to jail, everyone knows they're loopy as a bat, but then they go right back out on the street.

I don't think there's a cop or a jailor who doesn't have a dozen stories about dealing with the frothing-at-the-mouth crowd. When they start self-medicating and mix illegal drugs with their RX cocktail, things get really wild. The bottom line is there are thousands on the streets and with ill-equipped families who should be cared for in secured treatment facilities. The shootings just call attention to the larger problem.

That doesn't mean everyone who sees a psych should get locked up. The law truly needs to distinguish between the routinely crazy and those dangerous *TO OTHERS*, because that's the major concern. Not suicide.
We already have those distinctions in treatment and protection of self and others today. Learning from the many similarities of these creeps for profiling of at risk individuals focusses resources and opens the eyes of parents, family, friends, teachers and others that come into contact with these individuals. One other common factor is that during the months prior to an event, these creeps speak of their plans to one or more people not associated with the plan.

Thus, focussing on education of people with kids identified as at risk and what signs to look for and addition teaching parents to simply look and see what is in the kids rooms. Parents have the right to "invade" the privacy of their kids rooms. I did this on more than one occasion and was able to intervene on different issues, not a Columbine attack, but parents have the right to be parents. It was MY house, my food, my clothes that I paid for, and my roof and my heat and air conditioning. That was my house and I was responsible for whatever happened inside the four walls. Parents need to be parents.

There are many levels we can focus our efforts without bankrupting school districts, state and Federal governments.
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:09 AM   #187
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I agree with LaPierre

We should focus on both mental health reform and post a police officer at every school. I disagree that it cost too much. If a small town has 20 police officers and two schools they can spare 10% of the force to protect our kids. The other 90% can still be revenue generators while saving us from those viscous drivers that go 5-10 miles over the speed limit.

To say the answer is strictly mental health reform can be easily disproven. If we quadruple our mental health funding and the result is that we have the best mental health system in the world....would you simply lock all your guns in a safe upstairs or in the basement? Or will you still want to keep one handy at night.....just in case?
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:28 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by USgunguy View Post
We should focus on both mental health reform and post a police officer at every school. I disagree that it cost too much. If a small town has 20 police officers and two schools they can spare 10% of the force to protect our kids. The other 90% can still be revenue generators while saving us from those viscous drivers that go 5-10 miles over the speed limit.

To say the answer is strictly mental health reform can be easily disproven. If we quadruple our mental health funding and the result is that we have the best mental health system in the world....would you simply lock all your guns in a safe upstairs or in the basement? Or will you still want to keep one handy at night.....just in case?
I agree in principle with the exception that we can afford to implement the type of mental health reform needed AND armed guards in each school. We are talking about substantial revenues for this at a time when we are truly headed into very dangerous fiscal waters.

No, Utah has the solution that offers the best cost neutral protection. The problem is gun free zones. The answer is to eliminate these artificially created gun free zones with a volunteer cohort of teachers and administrators that take seriously self defense for themselves and for their kids. We have much evidence that Israel has already solved their problems way back in 1974 with very simple and cost effective measures.

Couple this with education of known risk factors to identify those at risk on several levels is the most cost effective manner in which to approach this. You don't need a sledgehammer when a directed drill solves the problem.
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:52 AM   #189
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Cost

If we have 600 kids in a school and the parent of each child paid $1 a week it would basically pay for a police officer in the school. Okay with benefits let's make it $30k a year with benefits....$1.50 per child. Now in reality schools are usually funded by real estate taxes so everyone's tax may go up $10-15 a year.

As for mental health funding we are still talking minimal dollars when spread across the entire tax base.

In my opinion, the fiscal problems state & federal are not the lack of income from the tax base. The problem is no matter how much they bring in the more they spend and they seem to have a knack for spending it on stupid stuff. Grounds for divorce, huh?
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:13 AM   #190
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Big Pharma has the Whitehouse in it's pocket - don't expect to see too much time spent on discussing Big Pharma's role in today's mental health issues.
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:18 AM   #191
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I agree in principle with the exception that we can afford to implement the type of mental health reform needed AND armed guards in each school. We are talking about substantial revenues for this at a time when we are truly headed into very dangerous fiscal waters.
In the long term I think an overhaul of the mental health system will come, in time we may have police officers in every school but Alaska444's point of the US being on a course into dangerous fiscal waters is very pertinent to what we can do soon.

I am going to focus my state/local activism efforts on educating everyone on the side effects of meds. and what to watch for, how this is nothing new and all this info is easily cross checked/confirmed by independent sources, the failure of politicians to act, and the business practices of the companies selling the meds.

Attacks on school will drop off when parents know what the meds. may do to their children. Parents may decide to go another route beside meds., at least they will monitor them more closely, they would know what resources (little though they may be) they have available when they see the warning signs.

Allow the faculty/staff the option to be armed, let each school district write their own policy, keep this at a local/state level and things can get done soon. If the neighborhood has the funds they can hire guards, if they have the assets they can post police officers, if they want to form a volunteer group that's their prerogative.


What we should avoid is countering the gun grabbers arguments with options that no one wants to pay for at this time.

Show the public that there are options besides gun control, or paying for armed guards in every school and they will listen.
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:32 AM   #192
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Big Pharma has the Whitehouse in it's pocket - don't expect to see too much time spent on discussing Big Pharma's role in today's mental health issues.

I am not asking for the White House's permission to discuss big pharma's role in what has happened.

I am not going to attempt to discuss this issue with the White House.

I am not going to wait for the White House to take up this discussion.

I am going to discuss it with my local news folks, politicians, neighbors, and pretty much anyone on the internet that is willing to listen.

I have a very big problem with big pharma right now and I intend to share the history of what they have been up to with anyone and everyone.

Whether, or not, the White house takes this up as a talking point means little to me.
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:21 AM   #193
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While allowing teachers to carry...if they choose...is a great option, IMO it is only their right to begin with.

OTOH, no matter what one state's record, this is still not going to stop a mass shooting. A mass shooting, in terms of numbers, consists of one classroom of kids, unfortunately. Again, just like having a single armed guard and expecting them to magically appear when a shooter barricades himself in one classroom of cornered kids....all a shooter has to do in a school with teachers carrying is walk into the classroom, take out the teacher, and we are back to square one.

If schools adopt this policy...do they make it public? Keep it hidden? Either opens a whole 'nother can of worms with parents paranoid about guns.

But anyway, we have to face that there is no complete solution to these *rare to begin with* shootings. Cosmoline is on the right track.

We can make recommendations but the minute the NRA or gun rights activists *declare* that such and such will save lives and should be implemented, then we get blamed when they dont work.

Let school districts decide to allow CC in schools. That is already on their radars, as we've seen movement in that direction since the CT shooting. Let parents decide to invest in armed security. Encourage it, but dont proscribe it. Because if and when it fails, *WE* are blamed for the failure and focus comes back to guns.

We, as the gun activists, need to support solutions that focus on the shooters...not the tools.
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:31 AM   #194
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Armed officer's is a bandaid, it'll help some, make people feel safer, but won't stop violence from happening. Open up some mental health hospitals, again it'll help, but won't stop mass killings. Gun control on law abiding citizens won't help anyone. IMO this 'problem' stems from multiple areas in our society.
We have strayed from core beliefs as a country. Can anyone at this time say that our future is brighter than ever? Doesn't it seem like there is more problems than ever? Alot of children are spoiled, well meaning parents, wanting better for their kids, have given them everything. Kids given a trophy and praise for 'trying', everyone is a winner, there are no losers. Can't paddle your kids, thats child abuse. They've learned there is no consquences for their actions. Smart phones, laptops and the internet haven't helped, but have spend the problem up. Now kids are learning not to socialize with one another, thats plain talking to you and me.
It goes on and on, but is clearly a shift in society. I try to raise the kids right and do my best, as I'm sure you do as well. It's a different world.

Last edited by TreeDoc; January 3, 2013 at 02:34 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:31 AM   #195
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While allowing teachers to carry...if they choose...is a great option, IMO it is only their right to begin with.

OTOH, no matter what one state's record, this is still not going to stop a mass shooting. A mass shooting, in terms of numbers, consists of one classroom of kids, unfortunately. Again, just like having a single armed guard and expecting them to magically appear when a shooter barricades himself in one classroom of cornered kids....all a shooter has to do in a school with teachers carrying is walk into the classroom, take out the teacher, and we are back to square one.

If schools adopt this policy...do they make it public? Keep it hidden? Either opens a whole 'nother can of worms with parents paranoid about guns.

But anyway, we have to face that there is no complete solution to these *rare to begin with* shootings. Cosmoline is on the right track.

We can make recommendations but the minute the NRA or gun rights activists *declare* that such and such will save lives and should be implemented, then we get blamed when they dont work.

Let school districts decide to allow CC in schools. That is already on their radars, as we've seen movement in that direction since the CT shooting. Let parents decide to invest in armed security. Encourage it, but dont proscribe it. Because if and when it fails, *WE* are blamed for the failure and focus comes back to guns.

We, as the gun activists, need to support solutions that focus on the shooters...not the tools.
Wow, I actually agree with everything you stated. How about that. Good post. Thank you.
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:32 AM   #196
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Armed officer's is a bandaid, it'll help some, make people feel safer, but won't stop violence from happening. Open up some mental health hospital, again it'll help, but won't stop mass killings. Gun control on law abiding citizens won't help anyone. IMO this 'problem' stems from multiple areas in our society.
We have strayed from core beliefs as a country. Can anyone at this time say that our future is brighter than ever? Doesn't it seem like there is more problems than ever? Alot of children are spoiled, well meaning parents, wanting better for their kids, have given them everything. Kids given a trophy and praise for 'trying', everyone is a winner, there are no losers. Can't paddle your kids, thats child abuse. They've learned there in no consquences for their actions. Smart phones, laptops and the internet haven't helped, but have spend the problem up. Now kids are learning not to socialize with one another, thats plain talking to you and me.
It goes on and on, but is clearly a shift in society. I try to raise the kids right and do my best, as I'm sure you do as well. It's a different world.
One of my friends observed some school kids walking home from school not talking. Instead they were texting back and forth to each other while walking. Go figure.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:24 AM   #197
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"I have a very big problem with big pharma right now"

What are you taking for it?


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Old January 3, 2013, 11:29 AM   #198
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Is mental health covered under Obamacare?
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Old January 3, 2013, 11:54 AM   #199
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Is mental health covered under Obamacare?
Sorry, normally I'd let that go............but isn't that a dichotomy?
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:19 PM   #200
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Another thing we have going on is people have no way to "put each other in line." When I was a young freak if you got into a fist fight no one went to jail. The fight was broken up if you really hurt someone you paid his doctor bill and that was the end of it. Lately, I have seen people do time in prison for a fist fight.

If we have no way to settle our differences people go off the deep end. Letting people settle their differences will stop a lot of shootings.

The mass shootings are a product of the media. People that would quietly commit suicide see a better way. If they kill a bunch of people they become infamous. When they die they are someone. Their face will be plastered across the TV screen for a week or so. Today's media doesn't take time to find out if what they are reporting is accurate much less consider the ramifications of their actions.

Mass killers are something the medical community has no tools to deal with. How is a doctor supposed to figure out which guy that is a little odd is a mass killer? Being a little odd can not be a reason to deny anyone their second amendment rights.

We already have laws that prevent serious mental cases from buying weapons.
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