Lead Poisoning --Valuable Health Information

actionflies · October 4, 2007, 09:58 PM

STAFF INSERT: I believe this discussion contains some valuable information bearing on certain health aspects of shooting, reloading, and particularly bullet casting. It is therefore floated at the top of the forum, at least temporarily. Thanks especially to actionflies for starting the thread, and to redneck2 for bringing it to my attention.
Johnny Guest
THR Staff
Handloading and reloading Moderator

For the last 4 months I have been shooting a lot and of lead bullets 10k+ in 45acp (lasercast and mastercast bullets) from a covered outdoor range and reloading. On each session, I would shoot around 200 rds. and there would be a lot of smoke around while shooting. After each session, I would wash my hands and face and blow my nose and my muccus is usually stained with some black goo and I also wash my hands after reloading. Just last week I went in for blood test for lead poisoning and today the result came back with abnormal level at 57 mcg/dL (micrograms per deciliter) here's a link for lead poisoning http://mayoclinic.com/health/lead-po...068/DSECTION=1. This was very high and even the local OSHA person called me thinking it was work related until I told him it was from shooting lead bullet and inhaling lead fumes. I notice there are no visible lead fumes when shooting outdoor with no cover (action range for ispc etc.) because a breeze is blowing, but a different story in a covered outdoor range because there was a cloud of smoke everytime I shot lead bullet. I know a few older guys tells me they cast and shoot a lot of lead bullets and they feel ok, but when was the last time they had a blood test for lead? I feel terrible about this and a major let down to my favorite hobby. I'm going to stop using lead bullet and will look into using Rainier or Berry's plated bullet from now on and will take a break from shooting until I recover. I recommend anyone that shoot a lot of lead bullet should go get a blood test.

Update: Just talked to my doctor and he recommend that I stay away from lead and comeback in 2 months for another blood test. If my lead level doesn't drop then I need a treatment call Thelation therapy. This treatment has strong side affect and could cause other complications. I also talked to an OSHA toxicology and he recommended the same path for treatment. Furthermore, I did a research on the internet and found that there were studies where 1000mg of vitamin C taken dialy have shown to reduce lead level significantly, so I'm going to take vitamin C for now. I also wanted to point out that I use the word 'lead poisoning' loosely, but in my case I was not sick or had any symptoms of lead poisoning. I only started shooting lead bullet in June, so this was a case of early detection and not lead poisoning. I think if I was sick, my doctor would of recommend Thelation therapy right away.

STAFF INSERT: 14JAN2008 UPDATE by actionfiles:

I got my 2nd blood test result after 3 months of not shooting and taking 1000mg of vitamin C daily, it went down from 57mcg/dL (Oct.) to 22mcg/dL (Jan.) I am sold on vitamin C and will continue to take it daily. You can buy a bottle at Costco - Kirkland brand 500 tablet 1000mg for $10. Here are links to association between vitamin C and lead:
http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/c...wers.lead.html
http://www.langers.com/PR/Vit_C_redu...od_7_22_99.htm
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH...HC000&c=218582
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...inC/index.html

Kimber1911_06238 · October 4, 2007, 10:03 PM

that sucks, what are the procedures for lowering the lead levels in your blood?

Linear Thinker · October 4, 2007, 10:12 PM

Action, Kimber - I have some experience in this matter. After many years of running indoor matches at a poorly ventilated range, my blood lead level was 21 ppB.

OSHA regs classify anything above 10 ppB for non-occupational exposure, and above 40 ppB for occupational exposure as dangerous. I had the obligatory calls from the state DEP, and OSHA. Told them I was casting my own fishing sinkers.

I had the range vent system redesigned, and stopped using exposed lead bullets. ~3 years later, my lead level is 13 ppB. Heavy metals take a long time to leave your system, as they accumulate in the marrow and the tissue.

Chelation (chemical displacement) is used in extreme cases of poisoning, it's extremely unpleasant.

There are folks on this board and others that will tell you that lead is good for you, they eat it for breakfast every day. Do your own research, and speak to a toxicologist or a pathologist (he/she would be delighted to talk to a living person

)
LT

351 WINCHESTER · October 4, 2007, 10:17 PM

I used to shoot in an indoor range. After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down. I don't know if it was the lead or the smoke from the powder/primer, but I quit going and it's outdoors only shooting and with lead bullets I make sure the wind is in my favor.

strat81 · October 4, 2007, 11:51 PM

Quote:

even the local OSHA person called me

Quote:

I had the obligatory calls from the state DEP, and OSHA.

I thought medical records were private... HIPAA and all that stuff. Why are your blood test results being sent to the .gov? Did you consent for the lab to do that?

**Walkalong** · October 4, 2007, 11:53 PM

Yea!

HIPPA is a BIG BIG DEAL at the hospital where I work.

We cannot tell anybody anything without the patients permission - IN WRITING!

jmorris · October 4, 2007, 11:57 PM

kimber,
as linear said time and reduced exposure is the only way to rid your body of lead. I too had elevated lead levels as well as several in our local club, after abandoning the indoor range we shot (for outdoor) at and a year’s time the level dropped back into “normal” range.

kingpin008 · October 5, 2007, 12:28 AM

Action - Sorry to hear that! I recently had a BLL test since I shoot at an indoor range. Thankfully I'm good to go. One thing I do to help "neutralize" any extra lead I may have taken in while shooting, is to make sure and wash my hands really well before I leave the range, and I keep a pack or two of Vitamin C drops in my car. Vitamin C has some chelating properties, and while it may not exactly be a cure-all, it certainly doesn't hurt to pop a few drops and suck on 'em on the way home.

Good luck getting those levels down, hope you're able to get back to shooting & reloading soon!

JohnMcD348 · October 5, 2007, 01:14 AM

With HIPPA, like many other rules in the health care industry, there are areas that include mandatory reporting. Things like suspected domestic violence, battery on a minor or elderly, and such, potential outbreak and high risk infections like (TB). I would suppose Lead would be in that catagory also.

SWModel19 · October 5, 2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Told them I was casting my own fishing sinkers.

That's how I would handle it. No need to give anti-gun politicos more ammo (so to speak) to label firearms a health threat.

Davo · October 5, 2007, 01:41 AM

Could this be from primer residue, and not the actual projectile?

JohnKSa · October 5, 2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Could this be from primer residue, and not the actual projectile?

YES!

Primers contain lead compounds. There was an Australian study (IIRC) that indicated most lead exposure from shooting (as opposed to reloading/casting) was due to primer compounds and not from metallic lead in the bullets.

I don't know if that's conclusive, but it's certainly true that a good bit of inhaled lead from a shooting range comes from the primers and not the bullet.

Linear Thinker · October 5, 2007, 06:30 AM

Strat - I was very concerned when I got the calls from the gummint, and started investigating. I was more concerned about my privacy or lack thereof, than my health.
Turns out that the diagnostic labs in my state and some others are required to report to the government certain test results, including elevated blood lead levels.
It's all done for the protection of workers exposed to lead, PCBs, MEK etc. in the workplace.
I feel better now, knowing that the Big Brother is looking out for me.

But seriously, having been in the machining and plating industry, I knew people who had serious health issues after chemicals exposure, and died young.
So, as much as I dislike the privacy loss, I understand the rationale.
LT

rdhood · October 5, 2007, 07:56 AM

primer residue? Yikes! Maybe I should start wearing disposable gloves when dealing with dirty brass?

I have avoided the whole lead bullet thing for two reasons: lead poisoning and barrel fouling. Plated or FMJ for me.

Master Blaster · October 5, 2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Plated or FMJ for me

Turn the fmj bullet over, that bare lead on the bottom, and yes it does vaporize under the high heat of propellent ignition.

ID_shooting · October 5, 2007, 09:14 AM

Health care industry worker here. Yes, regardless of what you think HIPPA may mean, labs are requiered to notify state CDC reps of results like lead exposure.

jmorris · October 5, 2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

But seriously, having been in the machining and plating industry, I knew people who had serious health issues after chemicals exposure, and died young.
So, as much as I dislike the privacy loss, I understand the rationale.
LT

If only there motive was to improve your health and not generate more revenue through fines. FWIW I never got a call from big brother, but then again I live in Texas.

walking arsenal · October 5, 2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

I used to shoot in an indoor range. After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down. I don't know if it was the lead or the smoke from the powder/primer, but I quit going and it's outdoors only shooting and with lead bullets I make sure the wind is in my favor.

Feeling "run down" after shooting is normal. You flinch every time you fire. that uses a lot of muscles. wears you out. don't know about the breathing.

strat81 · October 5, 2007, 09:54 AM

Maybe I should give up shooting and play with chinese-made toys instead. ;-)

Clark · October 5, 2007, 10:34 AM

There was a huge amount of information about lead poisoning posted on rec.guns newsgroup [not the WWW, but part of the internet, like email] about 10 years ago. Google has stopped it's search from finding anything older than July 2003. The site is still there in Google, if you already have the links.

What do I remember?
Only those that work in indoor ranges, not shooters, without ventilation, can get real lead poisoning. All indoor ranges now have ventilation.

A serious lead poisoning cannot be caused by shooting or casting, but will be caused by sanding off lead paint.

PC40 · October 5, 2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

primer residue? Yikes! Maybe I should start wearing disposable gloves when dealing with dirty brass?

At a recent Lead Worker Training class, where I work, I asked if lead can enter the body through the skin. The answer was no, the primary routes are inhalation and ingestion.

Disposable gloves are still preferable to getting the stuff on your skin. Whatever you do you need to keep contaminated hands away from the mouth/face and avoid cross-contaminating surfaces in your home (think of the children).

Also you should be aware of the dirty floor at the range that you shuffle your feet over and lay your range bag on.

Home Depot and Lowe's sell lead testing kits. It's a little tube with a couple of vials that you crush and mix, and then swab over a surface (I prefer to squeeze a drop onto the surface) and then look for a color change from yellow to pink or even deep red in worse cases. Red means lead. It's the same thing that we get from Lab Safety Supply in different packaging.

As I work for the Industrial Hygeine Group I am occasionally tasked with cleaning up lead contaminated areas. I wear proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) and use D-Lead cleaner and HEPA vacs. When I go in next week I am going to get Medical Services to test me for lead (as I am a shooter too, of course) and get a baseline. If my levels are too high I will be prevented from doing any lead work.

PC40 · October 5, 2007, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Maybe I should give up shooting and play with chinese-made toys instead. ;-)

I have heard a rumor that the high lead costs are due to China buying up all the lead they can find. Now we know what they're doing with it.

ZeSpectre · October 5, 2007, 11:45 AM

I think I'll just take this opportunity to make the following public service announcement.

Folks, even if you feel great (in fact, especially if you feel great) get a physical done once a year! Get lead levels tested and that sort of thing.

We like your company and want y'all here on THR for years and years and years to come!

trickyasafox · October 5, 2007, 12:17 PM

I'm 23 and I still get my lead checked every year. I went from 8ppm to 14ppm from last year to this year. A big problem that can skew your results is residual lead on your skin. if you get the test within a recent range visit, apparently it can twist your results a bit.

I heard vitamin C helps control it, but i'd be lying if I said I knew that for fact. I cast, reload, and shoot a couple different leagues. However, I only get to shoot 4 months of the year when I am home from school. I like to think I make up for it in that 4 months, throwing anywhere from 200-500 rounds per week, but there are some people here who call that a 'slow tuesday'

I think my lead exposure is from my tumbler. I tumble inside and don't deprime before I tumble. I am going to move my tumbler outside for the remainder of this year and see if that works out at my next test. because my levels are still low enough, I'm going to try one variable at a time.

Talonap · October 5, 2007, 01:13 PM

How about adding a particulate mask to our hearing and eye protection? The slightly added discomfort might be worth it to be able to use lead. (I'd rather not breath in metal thank you.)

October 4, 2007, 09:58 PM	#1
actionflies Member Join Date: April 17, 2007 Posts: 163	Lead Poisoning --Valuable Health Information STAFF INSERT: I believe this discussion contains some valuable information bearing on certain health aspects of shooting, reloading, and particularly bullet casting. It is therefore floated at the top of the forum, at least temporarily. Thanks especially to actionflies for starting the thread, and to redneck2 for bringing it to my attention. Johnny Guest THR Staff Handloading and reloading Moderator For the last 4 months I have been shooting a lot and of lead bullets 10k+ in 45acp (lasercast and mastercast bullets) from a covered outdoor range and reloading. On each session, I would shoot around 200 rds. and there would be a lot of smoke around while shooting. After each session, I would wash my hands and face and blow my nose and my muccus is usually stained with some black goo and I also wash my hands after reloading. Just last week I went in for blood test for lead poisoning and today the result came back with abnormal level at 57 mcg/dL (micrograms per deciliter) here's a link for lead poisoning http://mayoclinic.com/health/lead-po...068/DSECTION=1. This was very high and even the local OSHA person called me thinking it was work related until I told him it was from shooting lead bullet and inhaling lead fumes. I notice there are no visible lead fumes when shooting outdoor with no cover (action range for ispc etc.) because a breeze is blowing, but a different story in a covered outdoor range because there was a cloud of smoke everytime I shot lead bullet. I know a few older guys tells me they cast and shoot a lot of lead bullets and they feel ok, but when was the last time they had a blood test for lead? I feel terrible about this and a major let down to my favorite hobby. I'm going to stop using lead bullet and will look into using Rainier or Berry's plated bullet from now on and will take a break from shooting until I recover. I recommend anyone that shoot a lot of lead bullet should go get a blood test. Update: Just talked to my doctor and he recommend that I stay away from lead and comeback in 2 months for another blood test. If my lead level doesn't drop then I need a treatment call Thelation therapy. This treatment has strong side affect and could cause other complications. I also talked to an OSHA toxicology and he recommended the same path for treatment. Furthermore, I did a research on the internet and found that there were studies where 1000mg of vitamin C taken dialy have shown to reduce lead level significantly, so I'm going to take vitamin C for now. I also wanted to point out that I use the word 'lead poisoning' loosely, but in my case I was not sick or had any symptoms of lead poisoning. I only started shooting lead bullet in June, so this was a case of early detection and not lead poisoning. I think if I was sick, my doctor would of recommend Thelation therapy right away. STAFF INSERT: 14JAN2008 UPDATE by actionfiles: I got my 2nd blood test result after 3 months of not shooting and taking 1000mg of vitamin C daily, it went down from 57mcg/dL (Oct.) to 22mcg/dL (Jan.) I am sold on vitamin C and will continue to take it daily. You can buy a bottle at Costco - Kirkland brand 500 tablet 1000mg for $10. Here are links to association between vitamin C and lead: http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/c...wers.lead.html http://www.langers.com/PR/Vit_C_redu...od_7_22_99.htm http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH...HC000&c=218582 http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...inC/index.html Last edited by Johnny Guest; January 15, 2008 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Add update insert

October 4, 2007, 10:03 PM	#2
Kimber1911_06238 Member Join Date: January 14, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 1,546	that sucks, what are the procedures for lowering the lead levels in your blood? __________________ ^SWAMP YANKEE^ Connecticut: Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state. Art. I, § 15 (enacted 1818, art. I, § 17). The original 1818 text came from the Mississippi Constitution of 1817. [Self-defense right explicitly protected.] To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. - U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, Mar 9, 2007 "Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America , where it's safe." - Robert S. Kraft

October 4, 2007, 10:17 PM	#4
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Posts: 3,136	I used to shoot in an indoor range. After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down. I don't know if it was the lead or the smoke from the powder/primer, but I quit going and it's outdoors only shooting and with lead bullets I make sure the wind is in my favor. __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

October 4, 2007, 11:53 PM	#6
Walkalong Moderator Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 29,705	Yea! HIPPA is a BIG BIG DEAL at the hospital where I work. We cannot tell anybody anything without the patients permission - IN WRITING! __________________ Do you ever wonder why nobody ever robs the bag man for the mob? No, you don't. "Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered another round. Author unknown.

October 4, 2007, 11:57 PM	#7
jmorris Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Posts: 4,277	kimber, as linear said time and reduced exposure is the only way to rid your body of lead. I too had elevated lead levels as well as several in our local club, after abandoning the indoor range we shot (for outdoor) at and a year’s time the level dropped back into “normal” range. __________________ "My right to swing my arm ends at the tip of your nose." Joe S.

October 4, 2007, 10:12 PM	#3
Linear Thinker Member Join Date: August 28, 2005 Location: Blue State, NE US Posts: 187	Action, Kimber - I have some experience in this matter. After many years of running indoor matches at a poorly ventilated range, my blood lead level was 21 ppB. OSHA regs classify anything above 10 ppB for non-occupational exposure, and above 40 ppB for occupational exposure as dangerous. I had the obligatory calls from the state DEP, and OSHA. Told them I was casting my own fishing sinkers. I had the range vent system redesigned, and stopped using exposed lead bullets. ~3 years later, my lead level is 13 ppB. Heavy metals take a long time to leave your system, as they accumulate in the marrow and the tissue. Chelation (chemical displacement) is used in extreme cases of poisoning, it's extremely unpleasant. There are folks on this board and others that will tell you that lead is good for you, they eat it for breakfast every day. Do your own research, and speak to a toxicologist or a pathologist (he/she would be delighted to talk to a living person ) LT

October 5, 2007, 12:28 AM	#8
kingpin008 Member Join Date: June 6, 2006 Location: Howard County, Merry Land Posts: 5,437	Action - Sorry to hear that! I recently had a BLL test since I shoot at an indoor range. Thankfully I'm good to go. One thing I do to help "neutralize" any extra lead I may have taken in while shooting, is to make sure and wash my hands really well before I leave the range, and I keep a pack or two of Vitamin C drops in my car. Vitamin C has some chelating properties, and while it may not exactly be a cure-all, it certainly doesn't hurt to pop a few drops and suck on 'em on the way home. Good luck getting those levels down, hope you're able to get back to shooting & reloading soon! __________________ If a man aspires towards a righteous life, his first act of abstinence is from injury to animals. -- Albert Einstein Vegan.

October 5, 2007, 01:14 AM	#9
JohnMcD348 Member Join Date: October 15, 2006 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 277	With HIPPA, like many other rules in the health care industry, there are areas that include mandatory reporting. Things like suspected domestic violence, battery on a minor or elderly, and such, potential outbreak and high risk infections like (TB). I would suppose Lead would be in that catagory also. __________________ JTMcD. We sleep peaceful in our beds because Rough Men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm.......G. Orwell

October 5, 2007, 01:41 AM	#11
Davo Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Location: Riverside County, Kalifornia Posts: 1,126	Could this be from primer residue, and not the actual projectile? __________________ "Alas, after a certain age every man is responsible for the face he has." -Albert Camus “Be the change you want to see in the world.” -Mahatma Ghandi

October 5, 2007, 06:30 AM	#13
Linear Thinker Member Join Date: August 28, 2005 Location: Blue State, NE US Posts: 187	Strat - I was very concerned when I got the calls from the gummint, and started investigating. I was more concerned about my privacy or lack thereof, than my health. Turns out that the diagnostic labs in my state and some others are required to report to the government certain test results, including elevated blood lead levels. It's all done for the protection of workers exposed to lead, PCBs, MEK etc. in the workplace. I feel better now, knowing that the Big Brother is looking out for me. But seriously, having been in the machining and plating industry, I knew people who had serious health issues after chemicals exposure, and died young. So, as much as I dislike the privacy loss, I understand the rationale. LT Last edited by Linear Thinker; October 5, 2007 at 07:04 AM.

October 5, 2007, 07:56 AM	#14
rdhood Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Posts: 769	primer residue? Yikes! Maybe I should start wearing disposable gloves when dealing with dirty brass? I have avoided the whole lead bullet thing for two reasons: lead poisoning and barrel fouling. Plated or FMJ for me.

October 5, 2007, 09:14 AM	#16
ID_shooting Member Join Date: February 1, 2004 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 1,812	Health care industry worker here. Yes, regardless of what you think HIPPA may mean, labs are requiered to notify state CDC reps of results like lead exposure.

October 5, 2007, 09:54 AM	#19
strat81 Member Join Date: October 6, 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,915	Maybe I should give up shooting and play with chinese-made toys instead. ;-) __________________ If a man is a liar and says he is, is he? Join the Nebraska Firearms Owners Association today! www.nefirearm.com

October 5, 2007, 10:34 AM	#20
Clark Member Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: Where I5 meets the rain forest Posts: 3,772	There was a huge amount of information about lead poisoning posted on rec.guns newsgroup [not the WWW, but part of the internet, like email] about 10 years ago. Google has stopped it's search from finding anything older than July 2003. The site is still there in Google, if you already have the links. What do I remember? Only those that work in indoor ranges, not shooters, without ventilation, can get real lead poisoning. All indoor ranges now have ventilation. A serious lead poisoning cannot be caused by shooting or casting, but will be caused by sanding off lead paint. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

October 5, 2007, 11:45 AM	#23
ZeSpectre Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: Deep in the valley Posts: 5,476	I think I'll just take this opportunity to make the following public service announcement. Folks, even if you feel great (in fact, especially if you feel great) get a physical done once a year! Get lead levels tested and that sort of thing. We like your company and want y'all here on THR for years and years and years to come! __________________ . "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on"

October 5, 2007, 12:17 PM	#24
trickyasafox Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Location: upstate NY go to school in WNY Posts: 2,521	I'm 23 and I still get my lead checked every year. I went from 8ppm to 14ppm from last year to this year. A big problem that can skew your results is residual lead on your skin. if you get the test within a recent range visit, apparently it can twist your results a bit. I heard vitamin C helps control it, but i'd be lying if I said I knew that for fact. I cast, reload, and shoot a couple different leagues. However, I only get to shoot 4 months of the year when I am home from school. I like to think I make up for it in that 4 months, throwing anywhere from 200-500 rounds per week, but there are some people here who call that a 'slow tuesday' I think my lead exposure is from my tumbler. I tumble inside and don't deprime before I tumble. I am going to move my tumbler outside for the remainder of this year and see if that works out at my next test. because my levels are still low enough, I'm going to try one variable at a time. __________________ unbreakable Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur

October 5, 2007, 01:13 PM	#25
Talonap Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Posts: 52	How about adding a particulate mask to our hearing and eye protection? The slightly added discomfort might be worth it to be able to use lead. (I'd rather not breath in metal thank you.)