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Old July 22, 2014, 09:13 PM   #1
Potatohead
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w231 and AutoComp

Hopefully this wont be to crappy of a topic but Im curious:

Does anyone think it's remotely possible that Winchester is holding W231 back in order to get AutoComp into people's hands for a look see?

It hasnt been out very long has it, and dont you think Winchester had planned on AC being quite a success?

Ive seen AC around quite a bit, relatively speaking, but W231 has gone the way of the saber-toothed platypus, big time.

Maybe WIN didnt envision this as their plan from the get go, but maybe the marketing team seized an opportunity?

I know AC and Win231 dont occupy the exact same place on the burn chart, but...is it possible or is this idea a little to far out?

Or maybe AutoComp has been around longer than Im thinking and there's been plenty of time for a "look see"...thanks guys. PH
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Old July 22, 2014, 09:16 PM   #2
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Not in this market. No need to get folks to take a look at anything when they are selling all they can make as fast as they make it. IMHO.
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Old July 22, 2014, 09:33 PM   #3
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i don't think hogdon would do that. it's probably one of their best sellers.

what walkalong said!

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Old July 22, 2014, 09:50 PM   #4
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Potato head, I know what your talking about. My LGS has 7) 8lb jugs of Auto Comp on the shelves and not one bottle of any other kind of pistol powder. They do get some in from time to time, I pick up a pound of Titegroup last week and they limit everyone to one pound per purchase.
That's the only way that case of powder was there more than an hour.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:07 AM   #5
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I don't think Hodgdon is holding anything back. they will sell every single bottle they have in stock.

IMO, the W231 disappeared much faster than AutoComp because everyone knows W231 and AutoComp is fairly new and not as popular. I think that's why you see more AutoComp than W231 available.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:17 AM   #6
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With supply being as tight as it is, I would expect most powder manufacturers will be running max capacity and minimizing product changeovers on their production lines. So I'm not surprised to see short term gluts of certain powders while others varieties from the same manufacturer are scarce.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:38 AM   #7
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They haven't been holding back the W231, they've just been putting it in cans with HP-38 labels instead. I've seen plenty of HP38 online and a couple cans on LGS shelves. But everytime I see it I either don't have any money set aside for components or there's something else that I want/need more. Now I'm regretting it since I've given away the last of my 231. But the chance of HP38/W231 being discontinued is about 1bil:1 I'd bet. Besides, Hodgdon doesn't actually make either of them. They're stuck buying and packaging whatever St Marks wants to put out. I don't think they really care either, well they might care but I doubt they'll complain. AutoComp might stay on the shelves a little longer than W231, but its all being bought up.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:20 AM   #8
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I bought a pound of AC in January, haven't seen it since. I missed one round of HP38, haven't seen it again. Right now I would buy 8 lb. of each, if the price was reasonable.
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Old July 23, 2014, 10:05 AM   #9
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Thanks for the comments fellas..
I havent seen hp38 either but apparently it's around. Just seems weird to me that w231 is non existent. Well, I thought it was..

Ive never even seen a jug in real life yet. I will probably hear angels sing and a bright light if I ever do I bet.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:52 PM   #10
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Could'nt get 231 either. Saw some auto comp at the gun show and said what the heck. just fired some 158 LSWC in my .38 sp Blackhawk Shot well and clean burning (no soot or leading) I would buy more.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:58 PM   #11
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Yea, I really like it. I have 2.5 lbs and the LGS had a good bit the other day but I really felt he was taking advantage of the pistol powder situation. I'll give him 30, 32$ per LB, but 40$? No sir. Not until Im much more desperate anyway. I noticed it was all still in there the other day too.
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatohead View Post
Yea, I really like it. I have 2.5 lbs and the LGS had a good bit the other day but I really felt he was taking advantage of the pistol powder situation. I'll give him 30, 32$ per LB, but 40$? No sir. Not until Im much more desperate anyway. I noticed it was all still in there the other day too.
You must be talking about JC's,

Was up your way last week, prices there are high.
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:00 PM   #13
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I have only been reloading for 2 years. To me, w231 is like believing in Moses. I have heard about him. I have read that he parted the red sea and rained frogs down on the Egyptians... The problem is that I have never seen him so I can't say for sure that he was all that
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:07 PM   #14
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lol
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by LeftyTSGC View Post
You must be talking about JC's,

Was up your way last week, prices there are high.
Yup. That'b the one!
Definitely not the place to go to for bargain basement prices. I like to throw my local guys a bone though. He has everything 20% for whatever reason, and I can make that work with some items.
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:16 PM   #16
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Some time ago before this craziness in the market. I could not find my favorite HP38 or Win 231. I looked at the load data for all the calibers I load and found Win AC to be almost as useful as HP 38. Yes you use a little more. It meters well, burns "clean" if that's important to some.

I bought 8 lbs of it. It is just fine with me and I only have one Comped gun. Heck when I bought it I thought the Comp meant competition

I believe it to be just marketing hype, like Zombie ammo or a erasers in the powder.
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:20 PM   #17
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LOL. Well it does say "the competition pistol powder" (i think). What is the "Comp" for, compensator?
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:29 PM   #18
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Can you guys who use w231/HP38 answer a question for me?

In looking at pressures in the load data, it seems like w231/HP38 is consistently lower than other powders for similar velocities.

For example:

A 9mm load with a 125 grain FMJ bullet loaded with 4.9 grains of unique gets you about 1077fps and the pressure is 31,700psi. The same bullet loaded with 4.8 grains of HP38 gets you 1088fps and the pressure is only 28,800.

Does this lower pressure translate into better accuracy when working with lead cast bullets? I know that this is not an exact science, but taking even an 18BHN cast bullet you would, in theory, only be able to use a load up to around 23,000 psi before exceeding the elasticity of the lead. For most handgun calibers, this is not an issue but with 9mm or .40, you exceed that pressure with even the lightest loads of most other powders.

I ask this because, while I do have some 9mm hard cast loads that are pretty good, I have found it quite challenging to get bullseye accurate loads in 9mm. I am questioning whether w231/HP38 might help in this regard.
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Old July 23, 2014, 02:09 PM   #19
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I cant help much with your question but I myself, am not overly fond of win231/hp38 for 9mm and 380 with fmjs and plated. Its sacrilege I know ,but I havent been overly impressed. Does the job I guess. And sorry I didnt help much with your question but I look forward to reading some answers on the subject.
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Old July 23, 2014, 02:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
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LOL. Well it does say "the competition pistol powder" (i think). What is the "Comp" for, compensator?
Yes, some double speak about producing more gas to fill the compensator or something.

Schwing,

I do not care for fast powder in high pressure rounds like the 9mm or 40. Sure there is data for them but try some medium or slower burn powders if you can.

I use Power Pistol and just lucked into a 8 pound jug of Long Shot which I never used before. I loaded up some 9mm 124 grain FMJ and it is great.
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Old July 23, 2014, 04:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
try some medium or slower burn powders if you can
+1.
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Old July 23, 2014, 04:20 PM   #22
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I agree with the above. W231 is great in low pressure rounds like the .38 Special, 45 auto and 44 Special. I like to use slower powders in high pressure rounds like the 9mm. I use Longshot and HS-6 mostly in the 9mm unless I'm loading lead bullets for light range ammo. Then I use W231 there too.
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:35 PM   #23
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There are lots of reasons why this happens. Most notably, the manufacturer has to periodically switch the machinery over to make different powders. I would expect some powders to appear on the market in big numbers from time to time.

Then there's another factor. I believe there are powders out there that are cooked up from... well, let's call them leftovers. Just from the looks of it, I would guess AutoComp might be one of these. The powder itself looks a lot like floor sweepings.

When a manufacturer sets up to make Autocomp, perhaps they just keep churning it out until they're out of the ingredients, regardless how popular it is or isn't. It's not like it's necessarily using up the same ingredients they could be using to make HP38.
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:51 PM   #24
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LOL. Im not sure about that one, Gloob. But your guess is as good as mine.
Im not quite sure what you mean about how it looks, unless you were kidding.


And are you telling me Auto Comp is the hot dog of the gunpowder world?
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:44 AM   #25
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Just wild conjecture!

I like it just fine. I have been HOARDING it for my 40SW. It makes great balls-to-the-wall jhp loads with no muzzle flash!

My chain of thought: When making tons of product X, a manufacturer can take some resources A-F and turn it into product X. In the process, that manufacturer might acquire a ton of byproduct Q. This byproduct Q might be sort of like the end product, or it could have been an earlier intermediary. It might even be just like the end product, but maybe broken up into pieces that are now too small to make product X. But regardless, it has already been created, and in the process it has used up some of those initial resources, as well as time and energy, and it's now somewhere closer to product X than it started out.

Rather than throw it away or recycle it, they may find it makes a good, already semi-processed, ingredient for a new product, product Z.

"Floor sweepings" is probably too harsh. The kernels in Autocomp are very small and very IRREGULAR. They strike me as looking like Nerds candy, which IMO is another good example of a product potentially born as a "product Z."

Last edited by GLOOB; July 24, 2014 at 01:08 AM.
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