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Old February 1, 2013, 01:03 PM   #26
smalls
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Perhaps if, after buying both of these guns, the buyer was to shoot both of them. The buyer would have purchased both guns for the intent of using both of them. Then at some point later, when one of them was sold, it would be a used gun.
That sounds like it walks the line very close, but doesn't seem like a purchase with an immediate transfer to someone else.
The buyer doesn't have to shoot if, because what he's doing isn't illegal.

He could walk out to the parking lot and sell it, not illegal.

As long as he's not engaged in the business.

It's not illegal to buy a gun with the intent of selling it, you just can't do it as a regular source of income.

No, we do not have a specific number that determines when we need an FFL to continue to sell guns.
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Old February 1, 2013, 01:22 PM   #27
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Until we can read minds, we can't know another's intent unless he somehow documents that intent.
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Old February 1, 2013, 02:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by smalls
...The buyer doesn't have to shoot if, because what he's doing isn't illegal.

He could walk out to the parking lot and sell it, not illegal...
Unless he had made a prior arrangement with the buyer to buy the gun for him (the buyer). In that case it would be an illegal straw purchase, and shooting the gun first wouldn't change that.

It's one thing to buy a gun intending to sell it when you don't have a deal arranged ahead of time. In such a case, you're buying the gun on your own account and taking the risk that you'd find a buyer willing to buy it on terms satisfactory to you. If you don't find a buyer, you'll be stuck with the gun.

But if you've already made a deal with X that he will give you $$ for the gun right after you've purchased it, you're now not really the actual purchaser. You are buying the gun on X's behalf, as his proxy. And that makes it an illegal straw purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smalls
...As long as he's not engaged in the business....
See this thread for a discussion of that topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatledog7
Until we can read minds, we can't know another's intent unless he somehow documents that intent.
Prosecutors prove intent to the satisfaction of jurors (i. e., beyond a reasonable doubt) all the time based on circumstantial evidence, money trails, other characteristics of the action or surrounding activities. Intent is an element of many crimes.
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:02 PM   #29
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this came up recently on another forum when we were trying to find Ruger 22/45 LITE's. They're hard to come by yet Cabela's got a bunch in at various stores (and had them mismarked low by $100 to boot). The simple solution would be for someone local to a Cabelas to buy one and sell it but that qualifies as a straw purchase even if FFL's are involved in the transfer.

Now, I bought one off GB and a few days later found a dealer that had the other color offered (which was my preference). I ordered that one as well and put the first one up for sale. My original intent was to own the first...circumstances changed and I sold it. This is a subtle distinction but could also be misconstrued as a straw transaction (which it was not).

As evidenced by the comments in this thread, there's that "middle ground" where its up for interpretation as to what qualifies as a straw purchase.
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:17 PM   #30
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My question would be if the 4473 is the primary concern and determines who the actual buyer is, could X accept money from Y to pay for G, then, without taking possession, ship G to another FFL where Y could take possession? It makes no difference to most retail outlets who hands over the funds so long as they are sufficient. Any concrete answer?
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylerbone
My question would be if the 4473 is the primary concern and determines who the actual buyer is, could X accept money from Y to pay for G, then, without taking possession, ship G to another FFL where Y could take possession? It makes no difference to most retail outlets who hands over the funds so long as they are sufficient. Any concrete answer?
As long as X isn't "buying the gun", i. e., he's not actually filling out a 4473, it wouldn't be a straw purchase. He is merely a courier delivering the money to FFL(1) and directions to ship the gun to FFL(2) for transfer to the actual buyer.
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:21 PM   #32
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My question would be if the 4473 is the primary concern and determines who the actual buyer is, could X accept money from Y to pay for G, then, without taking possession, ship G to another FFL where Y could take possession? It makes no difference to most retail outlets who hands over the funds so long as they are sufficient. Any concrete answer?
It depends. ATF has held that "drop shippers" need an FFL; people can be dealers even if they never physically take posession of the firearm. If X pays Y who then pays the dealer, then Y needs an FFL. If X makes a check out to the FFL and Y merely transports it from X to the FFL then there's no problem.

See ATF Procedure 75-3 on page 150 of http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf for more info.
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Old February 1, 2013, 05:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
It depends. ATF has held that "drop shippers" need an FFL; people can be dealers even if they never physically take posession of the firearm. If X pays Y who then pays the dealer, then Y needs an FFL. If X makes a check out to the FFL and Y merely transports it from X to the FFL then there's no problem.

See ATF Procedure 75-3 on page 150 of http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf for more info.
Hadn't thought through that wrinkle. Good catch. Thanks.
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Old February 1, 2013, 06:01 PM   #34
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Prosecutors prove intent to the satisfaction of jurors (i. e., beyond a reasonable doubt) all the time based on circumstantial evidence, money trails, other characteristics of the action or surrounding activities. Intent is an element of many crimes.
I know this, Frank. Some of the things you list often do remove reasonable doubt regarding intent purely because they are forms of, I'll call it "virtual documentation," that cannot be explained in any other way besides intent to do the crime. But there is also conjecture, and it unfortunately sways many juries.
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Old February 1, 2013, 06:02 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
Is dealing without a license.
How about buying two and consigning one at the local FFL?
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:27 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by cluck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
Is dealing without a license.
How about buying two and consigning one at the local FFL?
What does that have to do with straw purchases?
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:31 PM   #37
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How do you handle a group of friends getting together and buying a case of Mosin Nagants?
http://www.classicfirearms.com/mosin...e-by-the-crate
They are sold by the crate of 20 for $2,400 plus shipping. Is there a way to do five forms for one purchase?
Does the Curio and Relic holder of the group just buy them in his name and then split them up once they come in? Is the C&R guy now a straw purchaser or dealer? Seems like buying a case at a time is just setting yourself up for an evil federal colonoscope. I don't know many C&R holders that have any use for an entire crate of rifles. They just want to cherry pick the best of the box to improve their collection and then liquidate the rest.

I AM NOT TRYING TO BE A PAIN. THIS IS A VALID QUESTION THAT RELATES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST.

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Old February 1, 2013, 07:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Fryerpower
How do you handle a group of friends getting together and buying a case of Mosin Nagants?
http://www.classicfirearms.com/mosin...e-by-the-crate
They are sold by the crate of 20 for $2,400 plus shipping. Is there a way to do five forms for one purchase?
Does the Curio and Relic holder of the group just buy them in his name and then split them up once they come in? Is the C&R guy now a straw purchaser or dealer?...
As described, whoever fills out the 4473 and answers that he is the actual purchaser has made a false statement on the 4473 and committed a straw purchase.
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fryerpower
How do you handle a group of friends getting together and buying a case of Mosin Nagants?
http://www.classicfirearms.com/mosin...e-by-the-crate
They are sold by the crate of 20 for $2,400 plus shipping. Is there a way to do five forms for one purchase?
Does the Curio and Relic holder of the group just buy them in his name and then split them up once they come in? Is the C&R guy now a straw purchaser or dealer?...
As described, whoever fills out the 4473 and answers that he is the actual purchaser has made a false statement on the 4473 and committed a straw purchase.
Expanding on the foregoing --

If the person purchasing the case has a C&R license and the guns qualify as Curio and Relics (which Mosin Nagants undoubtedly would), he as purchaser does not have to complete a 4473.

However, a C&R license does not authorize the holder to deal in firearms.

So this question raises issues beyond the core straw purchase question asked by the OP. It involves issues of the scope of permissible activities under a C&R license.
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:59 PM   #40
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Good to know.

Conversely, if you buy the case without consulting anyone, do your cherry picking, and then sell the extras you are ok because the intent was not to split the case with friends?

Still feels gray...
Makes you wonder how long you would have to hold them before selling them.
On a safer note you could trade them for other interesting C&R guns, say a Mosin Nagant or three for that Swiss 96/11 that you need for your collection. That should be ok because everything you are doing is for the betterment of your collection.

I guess the only way for the OP to make it work is to let the other guy know about the great deal on the gun and go through the FFL to FFL process.

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Last edited by Fryerpower; February 1, 2013 at 08:03 PM. Reason: added "with friends"
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:21 PM   #41
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Conversely, if you buy the case without consulting anyone, do your cherry picking, and then sell the extras you are ok because the intent was not to split the case with friends?
Can't be a straw purchase.

COULD be dealing without a license. Clear distinction between the two issues, but there is never a solid answer to the second. Best bet is to keep that sort of thing very minimal.

Read this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556) for more on that, especially Frank's comments and Bubbles' post at the end.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:55 PM   #42
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Having been in the business a long time, I have seen "buyer's remorse" occur quickly, actually "buyer's WIFE'S remorse", where a hapless henpecked soul comes back to the shop in a hurry wanting his money back. LOL
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Frank Ettin View Post
Expanding on the foregoing --

If the person purchasing the case has a C&R license and the guns qualify as Curio and Relics (which Mosin Nagants undoubtedly would), he as purchaser does not have to complete a 4473.

However, a C&R license does not authorize the holder to deal in firearms.

So this question raises issues beyond the core straw purchase question asked by the OP. It involves issues of the scope of permissible activities under a C&R license.
Excellent point! No 4473 - No way to make a false statement about who the guns are for!

The dealer/betterment of the collection route of thought should be, and most likely has been, dealth with in another thread.

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Old February 5, 2013, 07:32 PM   #44
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It happened to me that I re-sold two guns (years apart between each other) basically few days after, and both at a loss (albeit small one)

The first time I decided I did not need a fourth Mosin Nagant after all, and the second time I impulse-bought a Chiappa 1911-22 and playing with it in the evening I decided that I did not want to own a zinc junk gun so I was able to sell it couple of days later unfired.


Are these two instances could potentially leading to a straw purchase accusation even if clearly there was no intent??

How ATF track down straw man purchases if there is no obligation in some states to record private firearm transactions??
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Old February 5, 2013, 07:41 PM   #45
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How ATF track down
they don't.
they don't even bother to prosecute the felons who attempt to buy guns with a 4473, they surely aren't trying to track down every random private sale, the concept is laughable
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Old February 5, 2013, 08:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by saturno_v
...Are these two instances could potentially leading to a straw purchase accusation even if clearly there was no intent??...
Beats me. But underlying law is pretty thoroughly discussed in the Sticky Sam referenced. Perhaps you'll be able to work it out for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v
...How ATF track down straw man purchases if there is no obligation in some states to record private firearm transactions??
There are all kinds of ways that crimes get discovered and perpetrators caught and convicted. Sometime crimes don't get discovered and sometimes they do.
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Old February 5, 2013, 11:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v
...Are these two instances could potentially leading to a straw purchase accusation even if clearly there was no intent??...
Beats me. But underlying law is pretty thoroughly discussed in the Sticky Sam referenced. Perhaps you'll be able to work it out for yourself.
Oops, sorry. I thought this was a different thread.

Anyway, this is the Sticky, and I think if saturno goes back over it, he'll be able to decide if he has "straw purchase" problems.
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Old February 6, 2013, 11:50 AM   #48
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How ATF track down straw man purchases if there is no obligation in some states to record private firearm transactions??
If you look at the cases were people do get prosecuted, it's primarily because the flipped firearms end up seized and traced as part of a criminal investigation.

Now, if you're a guy who buys from an FFL and then sells to private buyers, and only one trace ever ends with you (er, I sold it, can't remember who to, I didn't keep the bill of sale sorry), then it's probably not an issue. OTOH if several traces in a short time span end with you, then you very likely will have a problem.
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Old February 6, 2013, 12:17 PM   #49
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The purchaser on the 4473 must be the bona fide good faith actual purchaser of the firearm for their own use. (A buyer of a gift to a non-prohibited person is a buyer in good faith for their own use--that use being as a gift).

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...3004/index.htm

Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, ATF P 5300.4 -
Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (Revised - 9/05)] Page 165
Quote:
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:20 PM   #50
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As described, whoever fills out the 4473 and answers that he is the actual purchaser has made a false statement on the 4473 and committed a straw purchase.
What about spouse buying for another etc. Say the wife is at the gun store and she calls you and says they just got in "X" would you like it for your b-day?
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