380 Is A Handful

[Ignition Override]

Kiln:
Three friends carry the Polish P-64, and having forgotten what the recoil was like, I was looking forward to buying one somewhere as my First Handgun.

But then I tried it out again, and changed my mind. The Bersa Thunder .380 was much better. with a nice trigger.

Is the Sig 232's recoil a bit milder than the P-64?

[kokapelli]

Originally Posted by Soldiernurse

No bashing by me, just curious the specifics that make your P238 more favorable than TCP738?

The P238 has a much better single action trigger, much less felt recoil, much, much better sights and is more accurate.

[ryan3465]

I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it. I have shot the PPK and that was plenty comfortable so I'm not sure of the difference on the P232 but I do know my G26 is much more pleasant to shoot for me. Good luck!

[kokapelli]

Originally Posted by ryan3465

I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it. I have shot the PPK and that was plenty comfortable so I'm not sure of the difference on the P232 but I do know my G26 is much more pleasant to shoot for me. Good luck!

Your G26 is a locked breach action while the PPK and P232 are blowback. Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

[Gary A]

Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

I read this a lot and agree with it in principle but the other thing to consider here is that a typical standard pressure 115 grain 9mm round in a Glock 26 will produce something more than double the recoil energy of a typical 90 grain .380 acp hollowpoint fired from a PPK/S. My own perception is that the effect of a locked breech is not enough to overcome that much more recoil energy. To me the .380 might be snappy but the recoil, overall, is less than the 9mm. Obviously, that is my perception and YMMV.

[chriske]

I always found my 2"J-frame S&W 640 far more "shootable" than my .380 ACP Walther PPK.
...... and way more reliable to boot !

[ezypikns]

the more you feel the recoil.

Try a Brooks A-Grip. it's a wrap for the pistol stock that really helps with controlling a lightweight pistol.

[jon_in_wv]

For those pushing the envelope on reloading the 380 in a P3AT or an LCP do yourself a favor and take a caliper to the thinnest part of the chamber in those pistols. Its on the bottom edge near the magazine. You are braver than me if you are doing that. My BG380 is almost three times thicker at its thinnest point than the others. I wouldn't fire anything other than standard pressure in a P3AT/LCP. If you are going beyond that please get a stouter gun so you can still count to ten on your fingers.

[Clark]

jon_in_wv
For those pushing the envelope on reloading the 380 in a P3AT or an LCP do yourself a favor and take a caliper to the thinnest part of the chamber in those pistols. Its on the bottom edge near the magazine. You are braver than me if you are doing that. My BG380 is almost three times thicker at its thinnest point than the others. I wouldn't fire anything other than standard pressure in a P3AT/LCP. If you are going beyond that please get a stouter gun so you can still count to ten on your fingers.

Funny you should mention that. I was just collecting that data today.


Chamber wall thickness
Kel -Tec P3AT 0.031"
Ruger LCP 0.037"
Kahr P380 0.063"

Case support
Kahr P380 0.175"
Ruger LCP 0.270"
KelTecP3AT 0.290"

[kokapelli]

Clark, if I remember correctly you were approaching 9X19 pressures in your loadings that you fired from your P3AT and you still have all your fingers, right?

[Clark]

The LCP and P3AT with case support at .270" and .290" can only get half way between 380 and 9mm pressures before there is a case bulge, per the 90 gr QL calc, but higher than 9mm per the 115 gr calc.

But Quickload is terrible at predicting short straight wall cases way overloaded.
The fire ball of muzzle blast is calculated worst case as burning more in the barrel.

So the P3AT will get a case bulge with 90 gr Gold Dot and Power Pistol at QL at 24 kpsi, but the bulge threshold is at 36 kpsi with 115 gr Win JHP and Power Pistol.

That pressure discrepancy is so large that the numbers have no meaning or usefulness.

What does it all mean?
I think the LCP and P3AT will case bulge threshold before they split the chamber. The pressure of that threshold I don't know.

[brickeyee]

You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

I do not think anyone was looking for target accuracy.

BIL's problem was that the damn thing was so painful to shoot he did not practice enough to become proficient.

At the very short rage may of these guns are intended for use at, i would expect my 1911 t leave one slightly ragged hole.

[jrdolall]

I don't suggest any of the pocket .380s or 9mms to new shooters or women looking for something smaller. I had a woman, 65ish, early this week that told me she would never shoot another semi after the slide of a P-11 bit her and drew blood. She carries a 642 now.

All of these pocket guns that I have personally shot have more recoil than a full sized fun in the same caliber, they are more likely to have FTE issues, they are harder to rack and they are more likely to bite you. I carry a .380 or a 9mm in my pocket all the time but I have been shooting for a long time and know the drawbacks. I can shoot a full box of .380 in one session without too much trouble but it is not as enjoyable as one of the full size guns.
I do not even have a full size .380. Maybe I should get a Hi Point I woul dneed really big pockets for that one.

[Clark]

I was at Pinto's gun shop and heard her talking about the new Ruger LC380 will be bigger than the LCP, and easier for women to shoot.

Oh no, after 20 years of trying not to, I have posted about women's hands on a gun forum.

[H.m.B]

Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

I wonder if an individual's arm strength, hand or forearm size, or physiology reduces the effect of recoil on these types of (blowback) pistols. I had the opportunity to fire a Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 mag a couple of years ago (yeah I know, not the same category) and that had a noticeable recoil though it was still manageable (was using two hands). If I remember correctly, that was more of a roll/flip from the wrist. I think it's fair to say that each person's perception of the effect of recoil is different.

I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it.

I have the SIG232 (stainless) and do not find the recoil to be a factor at all. Actually, there is a pleasant snappiness to it that makes it fun to shoot. The only sting I've felt is from the slide bite that results in a nice linear cut running parallel to my index finger!

[Cokeman]

Kahr P380s are nice in the recoil area.

[Clark]

H.m.B
Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

I wonder if an individual's arm strength....

Are all generalities false?



I thought about that post, but gave up on reacting directly.
An example of the pitfalls, is that, until slide slam, the blowback is going to couple via the spring and friction, where the locked breech will couple through the spring.
The blowback often has less recoiling mass, in that the barrel does not move.
Do you want to have to quantify those and then minimize them?
I don't.

[jon_in_wv]

You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

I fail to see where anyone here made that comparison other than you but people tend to discount the amount of mechanical accuracy these guns have. They are not "belly guns" as some people would say. I've owned and extensively shot the LCP and the BG380. Both are more mechanically accurate than 99% of shooters are capable of shooting. With the laser on my BG380 I can shoot groups at 25 yards as good as any of my larger pistols. With the sights I've shot pieces of clay pigeon at over 25 yards. A target 1911 they are not but neither are they inaccurate.

[kokapelli]

Originally Posted by jrdolall

of these pocket guns that I have personally shot have more recoil than a full sized fun in the same caliber, they are more likely to have FTE issues, they are harder to rack and they are more likely to bite you. I carry a .380 or a 9mm in my pocket all the time but I have been shooting for a long time and know the drawbacks. I can shoot a full box of .380 in one session without too much trouble but it is not as enjoyable as one of the full size guns.
I do not even have a full size .380. Maybe I should get a Hi Point I woul dneed really big pockets for that one.

I guess you haven't shot a P238!

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Kokapelli

I guess you haven't shot a P238!

They are sweet in recoil (or lack thereof). Well, there aren't any characteristics about the the P238 that aren't sweet outside the price.

Yesterday I put 200 more rounds of RWS 95gr FMJ through my P238 HD and I would have loved to shoot it more, but I didn't bring enough ammunition. It's a .380acp pistol that you could shoot all afternoon and enjoy every last round. That cannot be said for many other pistols of the size/chambering.

I do believe anyone wanting a mild-recoiling .380acp in a tiny package would be pleasantly surprised and likely won over if they gave the P238 a spin. Getting over the sticker shock is another story... but personally, I think they're well worth it!

[CZguy]

I do believe anyone wanting a mild-recoiling .380acp in a tiny package would be pleasantly surprised and likely won over if they gave the P238 a spin. Getting over the sticker shock is another story... but personally, I think they're well worth it!

I feel the same way about the Kahr P-380. It's the same size and weight as a LCP but double the cost.

[kokapelli]

Originally Posted by CZguy

I feel the same way about the Kahr P-380. It's the same size and weight as a LCP but double the cost.

The P238 is expensive but it is in a class by itself and still is way below the price of other pocket pistols like the R9 or the Seecamp.

I realize that the R9 and Seecamp pistols are works of art, but when I purchase a gun it's for shooting and art is something I hang on the wall.

[toivo]

Originally Posted by H.m.B

I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it.

I have the SIG232 (stainless) and do not find the recoil to be a factor at all. Actually, there is a pleasant snappiness to it that makes it fun to shoot.

The blued 230/232 have an alloy frame. The stainless are all steel and considerably heavier. I believe that might account for different experiences of felt recoil.

[Kybill]

"SIG P238 is the answer. My wife, an inexperienced shooter, ran 150 rounds through hers yesterday, and I believe if we'd brought another box to the range, she would have shot that up too."

Same here, my wifes sig P238 is easy to shoot, its a metal gun. My LCP with a Hogue grip doesn't bother me but its mostly plastic and much harder for my wife to control.

[the_skunk]

The Sig 238 is single action ... copy of the Colt Mustang. The real gem is the Colt Pony, it's a double action = a safety factor in a pocket pistol