Single action cylinder drags..... ?

[the Black Spot]

I have a uberti cattleman in 44 special. When i load the cylinder i can cock it, let hammer down and repeat. All works great. When i fire the revolver, after two shots i have to give a little force to get cylinder to rotate when cocking for next round. I always load the cylinder so my first shot is always on the same cylinder chamber.
Any ideas why it drags? These are handloads and primers are seated all the way and the loads are not hot
Thanks

[rcmodel]

Look at your fired primers and see if you are getting primer flow into the firing pin bushing hole.
They will appear shiney and sheared off when it turns if you are.

The answer is a harder primer like a CCI.

Or a better fitting firing pin.

What is the "loads are not hot" load you are using?
They may be "too not hot" enough, and there isn't enough pressure to re-seat the primers after they back out.

rc

[the Black Spot]

255 gr bullet with 25 gr of 3f black powder
200 gr bullet with 5.5 gr of bullseye
I am using cci lp primers

[rcmodel]

Well, it could be black powder fouling on the cylinder & barrel face.

Does it bind up when it is clean with the Bullseye load too?

rc

[the Black Spot]

Yes after only two shots fired

[rcmodel]

Well, only you can determine what is dragging where.

I can't look at your gun tp pin-point it, but you can.

Look for drag marks on the cylinder face, and on the fired primers like I mentioned in post #2 & #4.

I just don't know what else to tell you without having the gun in my hands.

rc

[.22-5-40]

Hello, the black spot. Have you checked the gap between barrel face & cylinder? Any leading? wonder if a bit of lead could be hanging things up?

[the Black Spot]

Thanks for the info. Going to shoot tomorrow and will check it out.

[washambala]

Only thing that comes to mind is that Ive heard of revolver bullets working out of the cases during recoil. Might be something to look at. (coming from the guy whose never had a chance to reload anything before. try not to tear me to bits, guys)

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

You mentioned the loads are not hot.

Have you checked to see if the primers are backing out? ALL primers back out of the case when the cartridge is fired. There is enough pressure that jets back through the flash hole to push the primer partially out of the primer pocket. Normally, recoil then shoves the case back hard enough against the breech face to reseat the primer. But if loads are light, there is not enough recoil generated to reseat the primers.

This is very common with light loads. Check to see that your primers are properly seated before firing, then check them again as soon as they are fired. If the primers have backed out, this can cause the cylinder to drag. The fix is to up the load so there is enough recoil generated to reseat the primers when the gun fires.

I doubt it is fouling binding between the cylinder and the barrel.

But how are you loading your Black Powder cartridges? If you use conventional smokeless bullets with conventional smokeless bullet lube, that can cause a problem. Be sure you are using a Black Powder compatible bullet lube such as SPG, which will keep the fouling soft so that it does not bind up the gun. Incidentally, it is usually not the front of the cylinder where binding occurs with Black Powder, it is usually fouling working its way down onto the cylinder pin.

[the Black Spot]

Well i believe the blackpowder fouling is binding the cylinder pin. Using a two lube groove bullet lubed 50/50 beeswax/olive oil. May need to lube my cylinder pin with the same lube to keep things soft(was using remoil on cyl pin before).
Will try smokless loads and report back.

[45Frank]

I had this problem with my 45LC at one time and it drove me crazy. The problem was the rim was to thick. They were all brand new nickle plated brass.

[Rodman579]

more than likely you need to open up your cylinder gap. its too tight and after a few rounds its causing the cylinder to drag cause of friction between it and the forcing cone. have it opened up to .008 and you should be good to go.

[murf]

make sure your base pin isn't backing out of the frame.

murf

[BCRider]

Well, I wouldn't call 5.5gns of bullseye a TOO light load. It's definetly in the middle of the range for .44Spl.

One aspect might be the Remoil you're using with the black powder loads. The gases and fouling from the BP will tend to react with the petroleum oil to create a tar like result which may be what is binding things up.

But as RC says it's hard to say at keyboard distance since so much depends on if the dragging feels mechanical or just sticky. You just need to look and feel with care to find the source of the stickiness.

One aspect which may well count for something. It sounds like it gets sticky during the cylinder. Is it still sticky after you shuck out the empties? Or does the cylinder free spin easily once cleared? If so that points to a possible primer pocket issue or possibly the primer flow back into the firing pin bushing. Either way if the problem goes away as soon as the gun is empty and is still OK once filled with new rounds then it's not a fouling issue at the cylinder gap or stickiness of the base pin. Instead you want to look at the way the casings and primers sit in the cylinder after thay are shot.

I'm wondering if the chambers are fouled up badly so that the rounds slip in but then after being shot they expand and wedge against the fouling? If so the empty casings may not want to slip forward to allow the cylinder to turn easily. You may want to shoot the gun empty then slip the base pin forward and withdraw the whole cylinder with empty casings still in place and study the situation closely. Pay particular attention to seeing if the primers show odd looking charactaristics or if the casings can be pushed ahead even a hair.

You might find that marking the head of the ammo with a felt marker before shooting helps. When done open the loading gate and carefully inspect the head stampings and primers for signs of rubbing to get a feel for what is going on. Leaving the casings in place during this inspection will aid in being able to see where the drag is occuring.

[35 Whelen]

I ran into this with one of my dads Colt clones in 45 Colt just the other day. After forcing the cylinder around, firing all the loads and removing the empties, I found the base of one of the cases had heavy scuffs across it which means either a) the rim of the case (Starline) was too thick, or b) there was something between the rim and the rear of the cylinder like a flake of unburned powder or something.

35W

[the Black Spot]

Think i have the answer; cylinder gap. As someone mentioned already. I dont think i can put a hair tween cylinder and forcing cone. After 5 shots of blackpowder rounds there was binding even after the empties were removed.
I will test and look some more.
Thanks for all the replies thus far it is a big help.

[35 Whelen]

If it does iy when the cylinder is empty, I could see it being either cylinder gap or accumulation of carbon or lead no the end of the cylinder. But if it only does it when it's loaded, I don't think it's the gap.

35W

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

DO NOT REMOVE METAL FROM THE BARREL/CYLINDER GAP UNTIL YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

There is a misconception in the general shooting public that the B/C gap needs to be opened up to shoot Black Powder. This is not true. I shoot Black Powder in single action revolvers all the time. Colts, Rugers, and clones. Every single one of them has the original factory B/C gap that runs between .005 and .008. I have not had to open up a single one of them. The biggest culprit that causes binding when shooting Black Powder in revolvers is insufficient Black Powder compatible bullet lube on the bullets. I noticed you said you are using two groove bullets. In my experience, most of the commercial bullets that are supposed to be used with Black Powder do not carry sufficient lube to be used with Black Powder. Most of them have two skimpy lube grooves on them that do not carry much lube.

Look into the Big Lube bullet designs.

http://www.biglube.com/Default.aspx

The Big Lube bullets were designed specifically to carry enough soft bullet lube to keep the bore lubricated with enough lube to prevent fouling build up in the bore. They also keep the fouling on the surface of the cylinder soft so that it can be easily brushed aside as the cylinder rotates.

The other major cause of binding with Black Powder is an insufficient bushing on the front of the cylinder. Some designs like the Remington 1858 have no bushing on the front of the cylinder and fouling that is blasted out of the B/C gap is deposited directly on the cylinder pin. Once on the cylinder pin the fouling works its way down inside where the cylinder rotates and then it causes binding.

Here is a photo of two cylinders, a 2nd Gen Colt on the right and a Cattleman just like yours on the left. Your Cattleman has a removable bushing just like this. When the bushing is in place, the raised boss at the front of the cylinder shields the cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the B/C gap. That's why it is there, this design dates back to the Black Powder era.



Get yourself some Ballistol. Apply a light coating of Ballistol to the cylinder pin AND the surface of the bushing, so both are well coated and nice and slippery. Using well designed bullets with plenty of soft Black Powder comparable bullet lube, and the proper design of bushing, you should be able to shoot Black Powder loads with out binding. I do it all the time. Call up Dick Dastardly and ask for a sample of bullets. For 44 Special you will want the 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullet. I use it in my 44 Russian and 44-40 cartridges. Dick does not sell bullets, he sells molds. But he has links to bullet casters who do cast his bullets.

I recommend against opening up the B/C gap. As I said, ALL of my revolvers have their factory gaps that measure between .005 and .008, and all of them shoot Black Powder just fine. With an unusually tight gap, down around .002 or less, binding can occur, then it is feasible to open up the gap a bit. But most factory gaps are fine just as they are. Opening up the gap can actually make things worse, allowing more fouling than usual to be blasted out of the B/C gap and onto the cylinder pin.


*****

One other thing. Check the hole where the firing pin pokes through the frame for burrs. If you are seeing scratches on the back surface of your rims, a burr around the hole is the likely culprit, not unburnt powder. Every time the firing pin flashes through the hole in the frame, it rubs against the hole. The firing pin is loose in the hammer and can rotate slightly around the pin that holds it in the hammer. As the pin goes through the hole it 'feels' its way through the hole. That is part of the design. Unfortunately, with the clones, repeated firing can raise a burr at the surface of the hole where the pin emerges and the burr can interfere with the rims of cartridges as they go by. This can be made worse by repeated dry firing.

Colts have a hardened steel insert pressed into the frame to prevent a burr from being raised. Clones do not have this insert and it is very common for a burr to be raised. I bought a used Cimarron Cattleman once that had such a bad burr that I could not turn the cylinder at all with rounds in the chamber. You can remove the burr by filing very carefully with a file held flat against the frame. Just a few strokes is all that is needed. Unfortunately the burr will usually reappear. I have had success by ever so slightly, very carefully counter sinking the hole with the point of a drill. This has to be done very carefully so too much metal is not removed, or things can get even worse, allowing primers to flow into the hole.

***

Check out these options before you remove any metal from your B/C gap. Be sure you are using enough soft BP compatible lube such as SPG on your bullets. Your concoction should be fine, you may need more. Be sure your bushing and cylinder pin are well lubed. And check for burrs around the firing pin hole.

[the Black Spot]

Driftwood, thanks for all that info. I will check for a bur at the firing pin hole.
On your cattleman, does the hand ever get indents from the hand spring pin?
I only have about 150-200 rnds through mine and i noticed three little indents on back o the hand.

I will check into the ballistol.

[BCRider]

If you can't find the Ballistol locally and you just need a temporary fix for a BP friendly oil then pickup a small bottle of Canola oil from the supermarket.

I've got a couple of Uberti Remington clones. As DJ mentions they can get sticky real quick due to how the fouling is dumped onto the pin. A drop of Canola and a spin of the cylinder before loading keeps things spinning freely all day long with the 10 run through the gun feeling about the same as the second run. The Canola really does a great job of keeping things running smoothly. It'll even free up a badly fouled cylinder that needs a forceful hand to turn it.

Don't rely on the Canola for long term storage though. Over time it does gum up. But from my own testing with it in a cool dark safe or storage cabinet it stays properly oily for a good 6 weeks. But I would not trust it for longer than that. Sitting out in the hot sun of summer it undergoes polymerization to a varnish like film in about a week to 10 days. Hence why I only use it as a day use or short term oil between succesive shooting days or weekends.

[the Black Spot]

What about olive oil for long term?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

http://www.ballistol.com/

Midway USA carries it.

Yes, I have heard of guys using olive oil, however it may go rancid over time.

Dunno about the marks on the hand of the Cattleman, I have not had mine apart in a long time.

[BCRider]

The trouble with olive oil is that in the virgin or extra virgin forms as used so well for salad dressings it has a lot of the fruit material still in it. So turning rancid is very likely in a relatively short time. As for the processed olive oil it is prone to the same gumming with age, heat and UV exposure. I use a lot of good olive oil for my own foods and the decorative bottle I use has to have the pouring spout cleaned regularly as the residue on the outside turns gummy in about a month to month and a half.

So you still need to get some Ballistol for the long term use. OR.... you CAN use regular gun oils. It's just that you'd want to clean them away well before loading and shooting to avoid the tar formation from the combination. To me that's too much fussing around so I prefer to keep a can of Ballistol for my black powder guns. But it's a big aerosol deal so for the range to keep things slick I still have a little squeeze bottle of the Canola. And as I said if I'm in a two day shoot or KNOW that I'll be using the gun again the following weekend I'll oil it up with the Canola after cleaning to save on the Ballistol.

Oddly enough in checking out Canola oil it seems that it wasn't originally developed as a cooking oil. That came later. It saw its original use as a lubricant on steam engines. Seems it had properties that made it more attractive than petroleum oils for some uses.

[Jim K]

That tight a barrel-cylinder gap can cause a problem even if the gun is clean and not fouling. The cause is heat. When the round is fired, the cylinder heats up and expands lengthwise, binding the cylinder. I have never seen it in two rounds, but I have seen it happen in 5 or 6. The answer is to take it to a gunsmith with the proper tools to trim the barrel and set the forcing cone. The best b-c gap setting is about .007".

Jim