Is 6 Shots Really Enough? - Page 8

smle41 · March 10, 2013, 05:03 PM

I know it seems that all I am doing is presenting stories in lieu of data, but I do think it is valid to draw from real life stories and try to learn any applicability to the present or future.
So, if you will indulge me, I would like to share one example, as I think it pertains. I do not know the veracity, but the lady concerned is trustworthy in my view, so I trust her recollection of events is accurate. At one point, near the "safe" and "good" little town of Troy, Idaho, said young woman was in one of the fields, near the road, tending the livestock when a vehicle containing three migrant workers passed by, then turned around and passed by slowly, then again, quite slowly, to come to a stop on the side of the road by the fence, about 10 yards from the lone woman. Naturally her alarm bells were ringing, she listened to them... the 3 males exited the car, asked questions regarding the presence of family, other laborers, etc. After 2 had crossed over onto the property (over a ditch), she felt it might be better to have clear access to her single action revolver and adjusted her coat accordingly. At this movement, all 3 males backed away, got into the car and left.
Now, in discussing this case with her, she stated her belief that she was being "interviewed" until they saw the weapon. I argue that they were continuing the victim selection process until they left, as they attempted to ascertain her mindset, skillset, and not her sidearm. In her body language, friendly but firm tone, physical motions, she exhibited a resolution to act, demonstrated skills that showed some skill, and they became aware of a tool.
It is common to become perhaps too concerned with the tool, and not concerned enough with determination or the ability to use a tool to the best that we can.
I want to tie the above with a couple of completely unscientific notes. Using the great example above of assailants coming around the truck at breakneck speed and reinforcing what JohnKSa and sidheshooter are writing. From timing my old, short pudgy self, I can walk halfway around the vehicle in apx. 6 seconds, trot in apx 3 seconds. Breakneck speed for sporting gym rat 17 y.o. youths are likely about 2, not longer than 3, conceivably about 1 second. Assuming 2 attackers have assessed the defender as their victim, the defender's likelihood of an unscathed victory are not what most of us would like.
In such a dire situation, we may agree with bsms (and others) that at least we will hurt the adversary in return, and not just be an "easy victim". This attitude itself, I suggest, is the mindset that will keep us from having to use the toolset.
On a side note, I was under the impression that sideplate screws were supposed to tightly down, and, unless one is a gunsmith or such, we ought not to remove it as a usual thing?
I digress.. the lady in the case above is illustrative both of mindset and of the use of barriers, the best time where I think the "high" capacity can be helpful, as the attack, or, attackers, are slowed/ blocked/ canalized etc and so are not strangling me in about a second.
Thanks

sidheshooter · March 10, 2013, 05:20 PM

Totally OT, but, I have much more fond memories of Troy, ID. That's where renown holster maker Rob Leahy of simply rugged lived when he started making holsters for friends. He ran some great "Paladin"-ish practical pistol matches back in the day. Excellent training for the time, and a super cool guy.

Sorry for the diversion; carry on.

antiquus · March 10, 2013, 06:19 PM

I'm not interested in a gun that cannot be fired from a coat pocket, I wear coats the majority of the year where I am.

I do want a gun that's hard to grab, and I want the best handle to be the one I have a hold of.

I'm not too interested in a gun which will jam if both me and an assailant have a grip on it and it's fired. I want a gun that is totally usable during the time both he and I have a grip on it.

2 shots at 2 feet in 2 seconds. Old formula learned the hard way.

JRH6856 · March 10, 2013, 06:37 PM

Quote:

I want a gun that is totally usable during the time both he and I have a grip on it.

That kind of limits you to something with one or more fixed barrels, and an internal hammer with a rotating firing pin, doesn't it?

**Kleanbore** · March 10, 2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Posted by antiquus: 2 shots at 2 feet in 2 seconds.

If he's moving at five meters per second, he will move thirty feet in those two seconds. If it is the first of your two shots that hits him at two feet, it will likely be your last.

Dennis Tueller showed us that an attacker can close on us in a very short time indeed; one may not be able to fire until an attacker is very close indeed. But if an attacker with a blade gets within two feet, the defender is in serious trouble by any standard.

Relying on wounding effectiveness alone at that point, or even at five feet, would be foolhardy. One had better be moving away very quickly, and if at all possible, putting something between oneself and the attacker.

Warp · March 10, 2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antiquus

I want a gun that is totally usable during the time both he and I have a grip on it.

That rules out revolvers.

He grabs it, cylinder can't rotate, you get zero shots off.

If, however, you had a semi auto in that situation, you would get one shot off before the slide failed to cycle properly and you had a malfunction.

Just sayin'

Duble Naught Spy · March 10, 2013, 09:19 PM

Well then thank God I carry an NAA mini.
There's barely enough room for my hand...

David E · March 11, 2013, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp

If, however, you had a semi auto in that situation, you would get one shot off before the slide failed to cycle properly and you had a malfunction.

Just sayin'

Unless the badguy pushed the slide out of battery preventing it from firing.

Just sayin'

Warp · March 11, 2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David E

Unless the badguy pushed the slide out of battery preventing it from firing.

Just sayin'

Valid point.

Either way, claiming revolver > semi auto under the belief that the gun will bill "totally usable" even when the attacker is grabbing/holding it, just plain doesn't work.

seeker_two · March 11, 2013, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Either way, claiming revolver > semi auto under the belief that the gun will bill "totally usable" even when the attacker is grabbing/holding it, just plain doesn't work.

Maybe if it's a derringer......

**Kleanbore** · March 11, 2013, 06:57 PM

^^^^^^

The point has been made. Let's get back on topic.

Stainz · March 12, 2013, 10:34 AM

Eight pages and I have read nothing that would convince me to abandon my J-frame CCWs or larger revolvers for defending myself, my car, or my home. But - I constantly employ 'situational awareness' as well as consciously avoiding 'bad situations', such as the less desireable side of town. When I was POOW in the USN, I often was the only armed sailor between the gangway and the ship's proper, including it's nuclear weapons. Also, I would be the only armed guard accompaning a disbursing clerk to the base and back with enough cash to cash the squadron's payroll checks, if needed - ~$300k in small bills. I carried a worn loaded 1911 - and a spare loaded mag. Fourteen rounds of .45 ACP ball ammo was deemed 'enough' for those chores, admittedly over four decades ago.

I chose an Airweight J-frame, like my 642, because I could pocket carry it 24/7, my prior L-frame 5-shooter .44 Special, a 296, being too large for some of my pants' pockets. I went from occasional carry with the 296 to 24/7 with the 642 - that was important. Earlier this year I added a 351PD - lighter weight and 7 x .22 WMR - to my selection. Home defense includes my 2 5/8" PC627 UDR x8 and my wife's 2" 10 and 4" 64, all kept loaded with 158gr LHPSWC +P's. Relatively easy to get, I also have a few other revolvers - then my safe revolvers, which all have speedloaders or moonclips full of defensive ammo stashed in a drawer. No shotguns, save my Governor - and one carbine, an M&P 15, with a few mags loaded and stowed elsewhere. Not the best situation, I am certain. But - it fits 'me', my psyche, and my situation. YMMV.

Stainz

easyg · March 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

There's just no getting around the fact that autoloaders are more ammo sensitive than revolvers.
You can have an otherwise perfectly functioning autoloader that, for no apparent reason, will fail to chamber a round.

45_auto · March 13, 2013, 01:26 PM

Quote:

You can have an otherwise perfectly functioning autoloader that, for no apparent reason, will fail to chamber a round.

That's why all the police and military forces don't use autoloading pistols and rifles.

Oops, seems that they do!

Could that be because the probability of a properly maintained autoloader failing to chamber a round is quite low in relation to the benefits gained?

Warp · March 13, 2013, 01:31 PM

He has a point. All else equal, a semi auto IS more likely to experience a stoppage than a revolver.

"Limp wristing"
Failure to feed
Failure to extract
Failure to eject

These are all things the revolver shooter doesn't have to worry about for the 5-8 shots, or whatever, their pistol holds.

We all have to decide for ourselves which set of advantages is more appealing to us and our situation. Semi autos obviously have their own set of advantages.

Certaindeaf · March 13, 2013, 01:36 PM

Back in the old days you were very lucky if you had a single shot pistol and then perhaps a large knife. That didn't stop people from going into pretty bad lands or what all. I wouldn't worry about it one way or another.

Thaddeus Jones · March 13, 2013, 01:38 PM

It doesn't appear that there are many folks present in this thread who were TRAINED to fight with a revolver. Perhaps y'all are just young revolver afficianados. Or perhaps the old revolver fighting tips and tricks are now relegated to historys dustbin.

Anyways, it USE TO BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE, among revolver carrying folks, that if some miscreant closed his hand around the cylinder of your revolver, while you were fixin to shoot him, you simply rotated the revolver while pulling the trigger in the direction OPPOSITE of the direction the cylinder rotates in.

Another words if you had a S&W, you used your grip on your revolver to rotate the gun CLOCKWISE while squeezing the trigger. If you had a Colt, you rotated it counter clockwise.

Doesn't anybody teach this stuff anymore? I guess not based on the number of folks who only feel well armed with a bazillion rounds..........

I'm a dinosaur and the meteor is almost here............

Warp · March 13, 2013, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaddeus Jones

It doesn't appear that there are many folks present in this thread who were TRAINED to fight with a revolver. Perhaps y'all are just young revolver afficianados. Or perhaps the old revolver fighting tips and tricks are now relegated to historys dustbin.

Anyways, it USE TO BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE, among revolver carrying folks, that if some miscreant closed his hand around the cylinder of your revolver, while you were fixin to shoot him, you simply rotated the revolver while pulling the trigger in the direction OPPOSITE of the direction the cylinder rotates in.

Another words if you had a S&W, you used your grip on your revolver to rotate the gun CLOCKWISE while squeezing the trigger. If you had a Colt, you rotated it counter clockwise.

Doesn't anybody teach this stuff anymore? I guess not based on the number of folks who only feel well armed with a bazillion rounds..........

I'm a dinosaur and the meteor is almost here............

I've gotta say...I never heard that before...but it sounds good to me!

But, as you guessed, I (and probably man others) was never trained to fight with a revolver. I was trained to fight with a semi automatic, and learned revolver on my own. It is not surprising that little things like that are missing from my knowledge base.

That's what I get for being 20-something, eh?

tipoc · March 13, 2013, 01:49 PM

Wow!

Seems I can't trust any of my guns, wheelguns or semis! Not enough rounds, not enough reliability, too many rounds that encourage me to miss a lot, a guy can grab a gun and keep it from firing, a guy can grab my gun and make it fire, a slow fat guy can run around my car faster than I can shoot, a fast skinny guy can duck my 5 shots from a J frame and make me wish I had a Glock. I can be attacked by one tall, fat guy who will absorb 5 shots and say "Thank You", I will be pursued by 50 Black and Mexican gangbangers for no reason other than they don't like the way I look and they all have body armor!

8 pages of fear and arguments as to why guns are unreliable!

Good thing I have a knife.

tipoc

JRH6856 · March 13, 2013, 02:17 PM

Quote:

8 pages of fear and arguments as to why guns are unreliable!

A well made, well maintained firearm is usually reliable in the hands of a well trained individual...usually, but not always. So be prepared for the failure, should it occur. Depend on yourself for your survival, not your equipment.

SharpsDressedMan · March 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

I carry both revolvers and autos, but USUALLY not at the same time. I know my guns, and I trust and maintain the guns that I use. Use whichever you prefer; they both have platforms that have six rounds, ifthat is your magic number. And don't let anyone tell you that six is not enough. They don't know, and neither do I. It's a crap shoot out there.

tipoc · March 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

Seems someone missed my sarcasm. I shoulda put a smiley face there.

But there are 8 pages here of folks trying to convince each other that none of them knows what they are doing. Maybe they are all right. That's kinda funny.

tipoc

smkummer · March 13, 2013, 02:39 PM

I don't fear because I followed rule 1 and that is to always have a gun. One plan of action always includes using the downed perps weapon if I run out or low in a multi bad guy situation. I don't look for trouble and will avoid if I can but if no safe escape is present then I will only draw if I plan to use it. If the situation is not resolved by the show of force, then it gets fired. No warning shots. I shoot to stop the threat and that may be up to 6 shots.

pezo · March 13, 2013, 02:55 PM

After reading this thread I made a decision. I will keep my simple and reliable wheel guns. If six or heck most of the time five aren't enough! I will reload like I practice! Quickly with the speed loaders I carry! Then it will be six or five again! Ha!

Lj1941 · March 13, 2013, 03:08 PM

What would Bill Jordan do or say?

March 10, 2013, 05:03 PM	#176
smle41 Member Join Date: July 6, 2011 Location: Athol, ID Posts: 31	Mindset, skillset, toolset I know it seems that all I am doing is presenting stories in lieu of data, but I do think it is valid to draw from real life stories and try to learn any applicability to the present or future. So, if you will indulge me, I would like to share one example, as I think it pertains. I do not know the veracity, but the lady concerned is trustworthy in my view, so I trust her recollection of events is accurate. At one point, near the "safe" and "good" little town of Troy, Idaho, said young woman was in one of the fields, near the road, tending the livestock when a vehicle containing three migrant workers passed by, then turned around and passed by slowly, then again, quite slowly, to come to a stop on the side of the road by the fence, about 10 yards from the lone woman. Naturally her alarm bells were ringing, she listened to them... the 3 males exited the car, asked questions regarding the presence of family, other laborers, etc. After 2 had crossed over onto the property (over a ditch), she felt it might be better to have clear access to her single action revolver and adjusted her coat accordingly. At this movement, all 3 males backed away, got into the car and left. Now, in discussing this case with her, she stated her belief that she was being "interviewed" until they saw the weapon. I argue that they were continuing the victim selection process until they left, as they attempted to ascertain her mindset, skillset, and not her sidearm. In her body language, friendly but firm tone, physical motions, she exhibited a resolution to act, demonstrated skills that showed some skill, and they became aware of a tool. It is common to become perhaps too concerned with the tool, and not concerned enough with determination or the ability to use a tool to the best that we can. I want to tie the above with a couple of completely unscientific notes. Using the great example above of assailants coming around the truck at breakneck speed and reinforcing what JohnKSa and sidheshooter are writing. From timing my old, short pudgy self, I can walk halfway around the vehicle in apx. 6 seconds, trot in apx 3 seconds. Breakneck speed for sporting gym rat 17 y.o. youths are likely about 2, not longer than 3, conceivably about 1 second. Assuming 2 attackers have assessed the defender as their victim, the defender's likelihood of an unscathed victory are not what most of us would like. In such a dire situation, we may agree with bsms (and others) that at least we will hurt the adversary in return, and not just be an "easy victim". This attitude itself, I suggest, is the mindset that will keep us from having to use the toolset. On a side note, I was under the impression that sideplate screws were supposed to tightly down, and, unless one is a gunsmith or such, we ought not to remove it as a usual thing? I digress.. the lady in the case above is illustrative both of mindset and of the use of barriers, the best time where I think the "high" capacity can be helpful, as the attack, or, attackers, are slowed/ blocked/ canalized etc and so are not strangling me in about a second. Thanks Last edited by smle41; March 11, 2013 at 12:48 AM.

March 10, 2013, 05:20 PM	#177
sidheshooter Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: NW Posts: 1,879	Totally OT, but, I have much more fond memories of Troy, ID. That's where renown holster maker Rob Leahy of simply rugged lived when he started making holsters for friends. He ran some great "Paladin"-ish practical pistol matches back in the day. Excellent training for the time, and a super cool guy. Sorry for the diversion; carry on. __________________ "The training/class you don't take won't help you."

March 10, 2013, 09:19 PM	#182
Duble Naught Spy Member Join Date: September 8, 2009 Location: west Texas Posts: 488	Well then thank God I carry an NAA mini. There's barely enough room for my hand... __________________ "The only thing that stops a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun". Possibly the most intelligent thing ever said on t.v.

March 13, 2013, 01:31 PM	#190
Warp Member Join Date: January 22, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,862	He has a point. All else equal, a semi auto IS more likely to experience a stoppage than a revolver. "Limp wristing" Failure to feed Failure to extract Failure to eject These are all things the revolver shooter doesn't have to worry about for the 5-8 shots, or whatever, their pistol holds. We all have to decide for ourselves which set of advantages is more appealing to us and our situation. Semi autos obviously have their own set of advantages. __________________ "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." ― Edmund Burke “In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing." ― Theodore Roosevelt

March 13, 2013, 01:36 PM	#191
Certaindeaf Member Join Date: January 16, 2012 Location: Wet Oregon Posts: 4,592	Back in the old days you were very lucky if you had a single shot pistol and then perhaps a large knife. That didn't stop people from going into pretty bad lands or what all. I wouldn't worry about it one way or another. __________________ Sent from my computer using my fingers.

March 10, 2013, 06:19 PM	#178
antiquus Member Join Date: April 15, 2010 Posts: 168	I'm not interested in a gun that cannot be fired from a coat pocket, I wear coats the majority of the year where I am. I do want a gun that's hard to grab, and I want the best handle to be the one I have a hold of. I'm not too interested in a gun which will jam if both me and an assailant have a grip on it and it's fired. I want a gun that is totally usable during the time both he and I have a grip on it. 2 shots at 2 feet in 2 seconds. Old formula learned the hard way.

March 11, 2013, 06:57 PM	#186
Kleanbore Moderator Join Date: August 13, 2008 Posts: 3,968	^^^^^^ The point has been made. Let's get back on topic.

March 12, 2013, 10:34 AM	#187
Stainz Member Join Date: April 24, 2003 Location: Pinson, AL Posts: 3,022	Eight pages and I have read nothing that would convince me to abandon my J-frame CCWs or larger revolvers for defending myself, my car, or my home. But - I constantly employ 'situational awareness' as well as consciously avoiding 'bad situations', such as the less desireable side of town. When I was POOW in the USN, I often was the only armed sailor between the gangway and the ship's proper, including it's nuclear weapons. Also, I would be the only armed guard accompaning a disbursing clerk to the base and back with enough cash to cash the squadron's payroll checks, if needed - ~$300k in small bills. I carried a worn loaded 1911 - and a spare loaded mag. Fourteen rounds of .45 ACP ball ammo was deemed 'enough' for those chores, admittedly over four decades ago. I chose an Airweight J-frame, like my 642, because I could pocket carry it 24/7, my prior L-frame 5-shooter .44 Special, a 296, being too large for some of my pants' pockets. I went from occasional carry with the 296 to 24/7 with the 642 - that was important. Earlier this year I added a 351PD - lighter weight and 7 x .22 WMR - to my selection. Home defense includes my 2 5/8" PC627 UDR x8 and my wife's 2" 10 and 4" 64, all kept loaded with 158gr LHPSWC +P's. Relatively easy to get, I also have a few other revolvers - then my safe revolvers, which all have speedloaders or moonclips full of defensive ammo stashed in a drawer. No shotguns, save my Governor - and one carbine, an M&P 15, with a few mags loaded and stowed elsewhere. Not the best situation, I am certain. But - it fits 'me', my psyche, and my situation. YMMV. Stainz

March 13, 2013, 11:59 AM	#188
easyg Member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Location: off-line mostly. Posts: 2,715	There's just no getting around the fact that autoloaders are more ammo sensitive than revolvers. You can have an otherwise perfectly functioning autoloader that, for no apparent reason, will fail to chamber a round.

March 13, 2013, 01:38 PM	#192
Thaddeus Jones Member Join Date: January 17, 2007 Posts: 941	It doesn't appear that there are many folks present in this thread who were TRAINED to fight with a revolver. Perhaps y'all are just young revolver afficianados. Or perhaps the old revolver fighting tips and tricks are now relegated to historys dustbin. Anyways, it USE TO BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE, among revolver carrying folks, that if some miscreant closed his hand around the cylinder of your revolver, while you were fixin to shoot him, you simply rotated the revolver while pulling the trigger in the direction OPPOSITE of the direction the cylinder rotates in. Another words if you had a S&W, you used your grip on your revolver to rotate the gun CLOCKWISE while squeezing the trigger. If you had a Colt, you rotated it counter clockwise. Doesn't anybody teach this stuff anymore? I guess not based on the number of folks who only feel well armed with a bazillion rounds.......... I'm a dinosaur and the meteor is almost here............

March 13, 2013, 01:49 PM	#194
tipoc Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 1,807	Wow! Seems I can't trust any of my guns, wheelguns or semis! Not enough rounds, not enough reliability, too many rounds that encourage me to miss a lot, a guy can grab a gun and keep it from firing, a guy can grab my gun and make it fire, a slow fat guy can run around my car faster than I can shoot, a fast skinny guy can duck my 5 shots from a J frame and make me wish I had a Glock. I can be attacked by one tall, fat guy who will absorb 5 shots and say "Thank You", I will be pursued by 50 Black and Mexican gangbangers for no reason other than they don't like the way I look and they all have body armor! 8 pages of fear and arguments as to why guns are unreliable! Good thing I have a knife. tipoc

March 13, 2013, 02:24 PM	#196
SharpsDressedMan Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 5,226	I carry both revolvers and autos, but USUALLY not at the same time. I know my guns, and I trust and maintain the guns that I use. Use whichever you prefer; they both have platforms that have six rounds, ifthat is your magic number. And don't let anyone tell you that six is not enough. They don't know, and neither do I. It's a crap shoot out there. __________________ 1)Beware of the man with only eight rounds.......he MAY be scared enough to make them count! M1 Garand & M1911 2) "What would Genghis Khan do?"

March 13, 2013, 02:32 PM	#197
tipoc Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 1,807	Seems someone missed my sarcasm. I shoulda put a smiley face there. But there are 8 pages here of folks trying to convince each other that none of them knows what they are doing. Maybe they are all right. That's kinda funny. tipoc

March 13, 2013, 02:39 PM	#198
smkummer Member Join Date: October 16, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 105	6 shots plus P in my Colt Agent 38 I don't fear because I followed rule 1 and that is to always have a gun. One plan of action always includes using the downed perps weapon if I run out or low in a multi bad guy situation. I don't look for trouble and will avoid if I can but if no safe escape is present then I will only draw if I plan to use it. If the situation is not resolved by the show of force, then it gets fired. No warning shots. I shoot to stop the threat and that may be up to 6 shots.

March 13, 2013, 02:55 PM	#199
pezo Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 586	After reading this thread I made a decision. I will keep my simple and reliable wheel guns. If six or heck most of the time five aren't enough! I will reload like I practice! Quickly with the speed loaders I carry! Then it will be six or five again! Ha!

March 13, 2013, 03:08 PM	#200
Lj1941 Member Join Date: June 12, 2009 Location: Portland,PA Posts: 209	What would Bill Jordan do or say? __________________ NRA LIFE Member US Army Veteran 45 ACP -"102 Years and still going strong. Is Benghazi,the IRS scandal,Fast & Furious and the AP wiretapping scandal the "New Watergate"? Could be "Comrade"!