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Old April 25, 2014, 11:05 PM   #76
Orion8472
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barnbwt, I think it would be pretty awesome if one was chambered in 5.7x28. Probably could get ten rounds in the magazine. But I would be for that setup.
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Old April 25, 2014, 11:14 PM   #77
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Ooh! When did those come out? I admittedly haven't been looking much at holsters, yet, the gun itself being much more interesting. I notice the Galco has a June 5th ship date.

As far as Kydex? The gun's got it bad enough as it is, I won't add insult to injury . J/k, I made a kukri sheath a while back from Kydex, and it's really cool stuff, but it wears the rust/patina off the steel hand-axe very quickly, so I shudder to think what it'd do to an aluminum frame . I personally think it excels in holding stuff that will get wet (like a kukri on the side of a hiking backpack) but I imagine I'd hate it as an IWB holster

And while I will probably end up relenting and going with a good 'ol generic pancake holster, I'd like at least one actually fitted to the R51 (even if it doesn't work as well ). Maybe a shiny black shoulder rig for under the tuxedo

TCB
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Old April 25, 2014, 11:38 PM   #78
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I think watching the kydex fight it out with the nitride slide, would be interesting.

The Pocket Tuk is working well for me. IWB cant is adjustible and it fits really well in deep pockets.
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Old April 25, 2014, 11:50 PM   #79
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There is a post in an R51 thread over on Glock Talk and the poster states a Remington rep told him that many of the slides are out of tolerance and it is causing multiple problems. He said he was told the plant has been shut down and they expect to get everything sorted out and start shipping guns again at the end of May.

I didn't see anything in the rules about posting links to other forums so here goes.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...514579&page=19

I don't know the poster personally but he's been around awhile and has a good reputation.

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Old April 26, 2014, 12:24 AM   #80
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Well, that's interesting, (and thanks for the link) but fixing the slide (and I can't imagine what might be out of spec on mine) will do nothing for the out of spec chamber.
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Old April 26, 2014, 07:27 AM   #81
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Well, that's interesting, (and thanks for the link) but fixing the slide (and I can't imagine what might be out of spec on mine) will do nothing for the out of spec chamber.
If what he said is true it sounds like the entire manufacturing and QC departments were doing little more than collecting their paychecks. If they had to do a complete shutdown of the plant I would expect a top to bottom review of the entire operation as well.

I hope they get it sorted out, I still think this gun has a lot of potential. I have my doubts about Remington though.

JB
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Old April 26, 2014, 09:08 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo View Post
If what he said is true it sounds like the entire manufacturing and QC departments were doing little more than collecting their paychecks. If they had to do a complete shutdown of the plant I would expect a top to bottom review of the entire operation as well.
That would be the Para operation and internal apathy at Para was my first suspicion so this would pretty much confirm that.

Quote:
I hope they get it sorted out, I still think this gun has a lot of potential. I have my doubts about Remington though.

JB
How they end up handling this will say a lot about Remington. Unlike some banks, they are not too big to fail, but as barnbwt says, they may be too big to succeed. It depends on what they really care about.
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Old April 26, 2014, 09:35 AM   #83
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Thank you for the update JohnnyBravo and all of the posters on the R51 issues! I just recently joined this forum and I am amazed at the knowledge and openness of the members here. I'm hoping to learn something!

I liked the R51 when I first saw it and I read everything I could find about the gun. All the initial reviews were good so I ordered two with the CT lasers in early February. At this point, I'm glad they haven't shipped and I hope the issues are resolved when I get mine!
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Old April 26, 2014, 10:31 AM   #84
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Welcome to The High Road, Ranger3!
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Old April 26, 2014, 10:34 AM   #85
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Thank you!!!
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Old April 26, 2014, 11:27 AM   #86
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More info from the NRA meetings posted by Electriclyde on the Remington Owners Forum:
I stopped by the Remington booth today at the NRA convention in Indy. Had an interesting conversation with a young man who is a product manager for Remington.
They are awaiting manufacture of new, slightly different breechblocks, which will also have some sort of coating on them for aiding in reduced wear and better retention of lubrication. He also said that those guns with a loose rear sight issue will have the slides replaced. He claims that the dovetails on the slides were improperly cut. He could not/would not commit to a timeline for the completion of the new parts. He also said that the warranty on the gun would start over when they were repaired.
They did have about 10 R51's on display, some with Crimson Trace Lasers on them. I racked the slide on several of the guns, and found some to be difficult, and some to be VERY easy!?!?!?
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Old April 26, 2014, 11:47 AM   #87
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It'll be interesting to find out more about the coating that aids in retaining lubrication.
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Old April 26, 2014, 11:53 AM   #88
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At least it would appear that the Remington guys are aware of the issues and will actually release it back into the wild soon and have it running as it should. If so, I'll be interested again.
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Old April 26, 2014, 12:01 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by moxie View Post
It'll be interesting to find out more about the coating that aids in retaining lubrication.
If Remington were still owned by DuPont, I'd call that "Teflon". It may still be.
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Old April 26, 2014, 02:39 PM   #90
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Teflon has some natural lubricity and is used in some lubricants, but doesn't retain lubrication.

Dupont sold Remington in '93. Remington is now part of the Cerberus Group. And that's another story.
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Old April 26, 2014, 03:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by moxie View Post
Teflon has some natural lubricity and is used in some lubricants, but doesn't retain lubrication.

Dupont sold Remington in '93. Remington is now part of the Cerberus Group. And that's another story.
Yes, that is correct.

I suppose if Teflon retains its natural lubricity, it could be said to "retain lubrication."
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Old April 26, 2014, 04:14 PM   #92
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"They are awaiting manufacture of new, slightly different breechblocks, which will also have some sort of coating on them for aiding in reduced wear and better retention of lubrication."

Am I to expect a coating is supposed to fix heinous tooling marks, sharp/burred slide cams, the burrs raised by the too-stiff disconnector tabs hitting the locking shoulder (that's what causes the 'gouge' on the right hand side upper face of the breech block, fellas), a pitifully reamed barrel, and a laughably loose extractor? They should spend their Teflon money on some new freaking chamber reamers and tooling. I think they also need to strongly consider making the bolt material harder; if it's getting peened by the disconnector and scarred by the slide cams, I worry for its longevity. More than I do for the aluminum locking shoulder.

My lathe-havin' buddy cleaned up the chamber this morning. Or should I say, finished reaming the chamber. As much metal came out, I'm astonished this thing was able to chamber rounds as well as it did in the first place. Not only was the chamber like .01" tight all the way down (the finish reamer only 'plunked' halfway down into the chamber ) but it was heavily ringed with scarring resulting from the machinists not flushing their chips, using worn reamers, or running too fast. I expect Para was doing all three to cut costs. Not only not only that, the chamber appears to have been cut with an endmill or something without a pilot since it was actually quite a bit egg shaped (we did manage to clean that part out) on the left hand toward the rear (it showed up on my brass, but I'd thought it was from weaker support at the feed ramp; nope, it's 180deg offset from the claw marks). There was also no leade of any sort, and the rifling was only somewhat beveled (probably from having FMJ bullet noses rammed into it and blown through)

Now there are two distinct 'steps' where before there was only one; the first, a well defined shoulder that contains the case (maybe a thou or two deeper than before as far as headspace), the second a leade relieved for a bullet ogive, with a very short freebore to the rifling lands thereafter. The difference plunking a dummy into an unissued Suomi chamber and then the R51 was astonishing. The case was nearly swaged in the R51, and could rattle about .01" side to side at the base in the Suomi. For those unaware, Suomis had extremely high quality barrels that would put full auto on a pie-plate at 25 yards. Oh, and the feel of cutting the chamber was painful; think heavy metal filing cabinet on concrete --complete with squealing fingernails on a chalkboard . Cleaned up the chamber with some 600grit while it was still in the lathe, and it looks tons better now, and chambers dummy rounds much easier. Extracts under slide rack much more positively, too. I sure hope the reduced chamber friction doesn't make the gun a harsher recoiler .

At the end of the day, the chamber looks tons better, but there is still one reamer scar that was so deep it remains. The volume of metal removed was probably about a small grain of rice (from an ostensibly finished chamber). See the attached photo to see the wallowed section of the chamber (dark wedge shape at the breech end is the uncut area)

The experience with my gun combined with those of many others experiencing short/rough/tight chambers leads me to recommend that all R51 owners proceed as though their guns are short chambered, and perform some due diligence to ensure it's going fully into battery. It's not the end of the world, since short chambers can be fixed, but something to be mindful of.

TCB
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Old April 26, 2014, 09:01 PM   #93
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I've got to admit, it's getting better, getting better, all the time...

"...it can't get, much worse!"

Took care of potentially the biggest reliability-killer today by cleaning up the chamber. Although, 'cleaning up' might be too soft a word. The reamer initially dropped only halfway into the chamber, and it appears a good .01" of diameter was removed in the course of cutting it. Basically, the factory chamber was exactly big enough for some rounds to fit, and no more. To fat/long a bullet? Hits the lands because there was no leade cut. Slightly fat case? Will wedge in the chamber and not go fully into battery (I'm not convinced this is so much a safety issue as it is a reliability issue)

After reaming, the case was as loose as a Suomi barrel, and as loose as my Hi Power barrel I checked against when I got back home. Fired cases now swell about .005" just like my other 9mms, whereas before there was zero expansion. Most importantly, the chamber is infinitely smoother than before. The chamber was dull and badly ringed due to dull/fast reaming, and left terrible sandpaper scratches on fired cases. After cutting it to the proper profile and a more consistent texture, I ran a Q-tip covered in honing compound with a power drill over it briefly to polish off any burs or flakes that might still be sticking around. After test firing today, I found the fired brass is shinier than it was before being put in the gun. Also importantly, there were zero failures to feed attributable to the chamber/ramp out of 250 or so rounds fired (granted, there were only 1 maybe two for that many rounds before hand).

Whether it was truly needed or not, the brass looks tons better and the chamber has a real leade to accommodate longer bullets that it was sorely lacking prior. The gun doctor did no harm

I also shined up uglier faces of the bolt, the feed ramp, the barrel exterior, and the recoil spring bushing some more with homing paste (just used rouge before which of course didn't accomplish much). Cleaned off some burs on the bolt that had formed from riding over the (previously) ultra stiff disconnector. Without a bolt or spring in the slide, nearly no force is needed to rack it (was about 5lbs originally). With everything in the slide, it's gotta be at or under 10lbs now

I did notice I seemed to be short stroking the trigger occasionally today, which I will attribute to my disassembly probably changing something. My theory is the disconnector return spring had an extra wind in it before installation originally, which is why it was so hard to drop and why the trigger return spring was strong enough to prevent short stroking. I reassembled the gun without the disco spring tensioned as significantly, so now it does its function with far less force/binding, but the trigger return isn't as positive (the return spring is only a pound or so, not enough to push your finger back quick when you relax after shooting). I'll have to try bending the spring a little to generate more deflection against it when the barrel is installed (the barrel tensions the spring leg)

Oh, and the trigger is developing the elusive "tactile reset" in that an audible click now occurs when the stirrup bar falls back down in front of the sears. I personally think that with pre/over travel minimized with a better trigger lever, no one would have trouble short stroking the gun (trigger take up would be ~3/32 and the break another 1/32 with no over travel. Clean up the sears and it'd be even less than that)

As far as the range report:
My biggest fear was realized; the gun does recoil a bit more now that the cases come out easily. Still low for a gun its size, and still no fatigue/soreness in my hands after shooting (just the thumbs from loading mags and my index knuckle from whanging my hand on something at the range ), but recoil has a 'magnum' smack to it now that I don't seem to recall from before. Ejection is no harsher, so it may actually be completely my imagination

This time I brought four different brands:
-Remington Golden Sabres: very first round FTF from the mag (hollow point on the magazine forward ramp again) but I think I didn't have the round seated in the mag properly. No subsequent issues of any kind. 28 rounds, total.
-Blazer Aluminum case crap-o-rama: no issues of any sort. 100 rounds, total
-Winchester white box crap-o-rama: one failure to eject, where the case was stuck between the base and neck alongside the properly-feeding round by the slide. This stuff didn't seem loaded as hot and ejected fairly close by. 100 rounds, total
-Corbon +P (135gr, I think?): Either this gun damps initial recoil better than I can imagine, or the whole 9mm +P thing is totally overblown. Increased recoil/blast was barely detectable, if I wasn't simply imagining a difference. No issues of any sort. 14 rounds, total

Accuracy was pretty close for all of them, though I was admittedly a getting a bit tired by the time I went shooting and wasn't trying particularly hard. 6-10inch groups at about 20 yards, all consistently 12" to the right of aim while it was dead on previously (could easily be due to the new chamber, or the fact the pistol bay is like a breezeway directing ~30mph gusts laden with dusty sand in that direction, or me just not trying very hard.) Sights haven't moved any and the original chamber and new one are both bore-centric (though the new one isn't egg-shaped) so I'm inclined to place the blame on me. I'm probably heeling the grip to the left and flinching.

So now we're down to 1-maybe-2 failures in 250 rounds

TCB
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Old April 27, 2014, 09:36 AM   #94
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So it looks like rechambering to 9mm Luger from "9mm Remington" helps a lot as we suspected. That leaves the disconnector and whatever problem Remington has bound in the interface between the slide and breechblock and maybe something with the firing pin.

Speaking of the disconnector, In your pics of the FCG, I see only one spring, a bronze colored one that is on different sides of the hammer in different pics. Looking at my FCG with the grip safety off, I see two springs, a bronze one on the right side of the hammer and gray one on the left. Did you lose a spring?

You don't even need to take the grip safety off, you can see the springs looking down from the top of the frame with the slide off. It's on the right in the attached pic.
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Old April 27, 2014, 10:35 AM   #95
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So it looks like rechambering to 9mm Luger from "9mm Remington" helps a lot as we suspected.
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Old April 27, 2014, 10:57 AM   #96
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Hmm...perhaps . I did say the gun exploded when that pin was punched out, and the trigger return and takeup are lighter than they were. In that case, why the heck is there a return spring on the trigger itself in the first place, Remington? Everything's spring returned, so I thought I had my bases covered.

Good eye, JRH, I'll get looking (it can't have gone far...)

TCB
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Old April 27, 2014, 11:55 AM   #97
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Well, don't feel bad. It took me a couple of days the find the safety pin that fell out while I was trying to get the knurled pins out.

But this means that instead of a single spring being double wound, the disconnector return is double sprung. I had a feeling that lightening the disconnector resistance by not winding the spring was just a bit too easy. Maybe after Remington gets the revisions done, Wolfe will do a spring kit...
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Old April 28, 2014, 07:11 PM   #98
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Isn't it stupid how undersized those pins are? The worst part is you can't bump them up since they are the proper size for the slots in the safety block. Upsetting the holes would be the solution, but probably too obvious for Remington's warranty guys . I did find the other spring; I'm even more dumbfounded how the spring between the hammer block and the frame fell out, but the hammer block didn't . I'll tear down the gun again (those poor pin holes ) and get it installed, as well as polish and smooth every rough edge I can see. I might even see if I can whip up a new trigger in the meantime if I can find some 1/4" or so stock. I don't plan another range trip for a while; ammo's just too dang pricey and I've already put close to 200$ downrange in a couple weeks. Can't save up for that Boberg/Rhino/Mateba/KPV kit/etc. if I burn all my moolah on powder

"But this means that instead of a single spring being double wound, the disconnector return is double sprung. I had a feeling that lightening the disconnector resistance by not winding the spring was just a bit too easy."

That's the weird part; my earlier claim that the hammer block needs no spring return is still valid. The stirrup sits in a notch on the lever, and positively pushes and pulls it regardless of what the spring does. The disconnector still appears to function just fine, if not better, with less spring tension. The problem now is that the single remaining spring just doesn't have enough oomph to push the trigger back in front of the sear unless you removed your finger entirely (it breaks at like 5lbs, but resets at mere ounces; hard to ride the trigger back that way, tactile reset or no). If the actual trigger return spring at the trigger pivot had more tensioned travel, you wouldn't need to tension the hammer safety to return it fully forward. I would normally be in favor of spring force having dual functions (hammer block and disconnector) since it makes most efficient use of the trigger weight, but in this case I think the disconnector's loose construction makes it bind worse the more force is required to drop it. Especially if those two springs don't quite press as hard on each side of the disconnector identically.

-------------------------------------------------------

Leghorn is once again bashing the R51 based on unreasonable criteria; apparently he's miffed they haven't got a fix for the issues (as if it is only one fix) a scant four weeks into the rollout. Hell, it took us dedicated forum boys about two weeks to figure out whether the praise/troubles were even legitimate (there's a hilarious post in another forum by some tool saying the gun had a slicker slide than any other gun he owned; pure BS by the very nature of the action, it bumps the disconnector three times each way as well as a breechblock). It took a good three weeks to figure out that some issues were re-occurring, and only a week or so to ponder what exactly could be causing the issues, let alone think of fixes. My chamber ream was done more out of me knowing it was wrong than knowing it was causing issues, and because it was a quick fix.

Does anyone really think a bloated corporate bureaucracy, doubtless full of idiots denying problems or access in a bid to cover their rears and turf, could react and adapt to news from the market faster than dedicated hobbyists? I am starting to see why the small-time one man shop vendors of the gun building world I sometimes speak with have such disdain for large chunks of the gun community. Complete lack of understanding and consideration of how these products get made, unrealistic expectations of organizations, and complete intolerance of anything but perfection smack of royal privilege. Being royal means not knowing where food comes from . "Make it again, servant!"

The sad part is that the blog "finding" is already being parroted eagerly on a half-dozen or so sites complete with knee-jerk agreement by most posters. It's not even news, the lack of a fix being ready just yet . At least one poster had the hilarious pearl of wisdumb that "Remington sucks and we hate them" . They do seem to be quite the butt-monkey for gun forums, lately (since before Marlin, really)

TCB
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Old April 28, 2014, 07:55 PM   #99
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I think Remington bashing started with their 22LR a few years ago. Some of that stuff was just bad. (If they fired that QC guy, I think he went to work for Para.)

The one certain advantage the company engineers have over hobbyists is they have the blue prints and hopefully an idea of what each part is supposed to do and why. We have to look at something that is not working, and figure out how it is supposed to work by figuring out what isn't happening. They should get the answers first. Especialy since it took a month ( for you and I each at least) to get a gun in our hands.

An now I'm wondering why those two disconnector springs are different colors...
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Old April 28, 2014, 10:04 PM   #100
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I'm certain it's for identification; I think they are just left and right hand versions of each other. The sear/hammer block are differently colored for similar reasons, I suspect.

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