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Old July 11, 2014, 02:38 AM   #51
justice06rr
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I think the 5.7 is great in a pistol like the FN57. In a M4 config like the AR57 upper, its a cool range toy IMHO.

The only real advantage of the AR57 is that 50rd mag, which is technically a wash if you use large capacity AR mags like the Surefire60 or any drum mag with a standard M4.

If you want it purely for plinking, then go for it.

But if you want more effective SD/HD with a little bit longer range capability, stick with 5.56.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:45 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavracer
I doubt that it isn't unless you're shooting AE ammo that stuff is pretty weak and prolly not as loud.
About 70 fps slower:

FN SS197SR 5.7x28mm 40gr
FN Five-Seven: 1839, 1849, 1838, 1833, 1823
Average: 1836 Spread: 26

Federal American Eagle 5.7x28mm 40gr
FN Five-Seven: 1790, 1783, 1748, 1752, 1745
Average: 1763 Spread: 45


That's what I got when I was running a large selection of ammunition over my chrony a couple weeks ago.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:44 AM   #53
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Click - what's the FPS difference out of a 16" tube?

Oh wait, I've already done that.

Federal American Eagle:
Low: 2008 FPS
High: 2113 FPS
Avg: 2075 FPS

SS197SR:
Low: 2041 fps
High: 2099 fps
Avg: 2083 fps

Source http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=739404

It's negligible.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:55 AM   #54
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Now that's interesting with the Five-Seven showing a significantly larger variance. I wonder if the AE stuff is using a slower burning powder than the FN stuff.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:02 AM   #55
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They have to be, Click. The Extreme Spread difference also confirms it's a different powder; much higher on the AE ammo. Another tidbit; AE doesn't use glued in bullets or primers like Fiocci does. Another indication they are using a slower powder.

I saw the same thing with longshot. REAL nice velocities out of the PS90 (zooming right past factory ammo speeds, with no pressure signs); but it wasted unburnt powder out of the pistol. No matter how much you cram in to the case on a Five Seven, velocity stalls out at a certain point. Do the same thing in the rifle and you burst cases and pop primers. Powder is burning completely in the rifle, instead of venting.

Which brings me to the simple, unalterable truth about the 5.7 ... the ammunition is a compromise. It's why it took them so long to get a functioning handgun after developing the rifle. They had to re-engineer the ammunition and this took a while.

Because the actions are straight blow-back, you MUST have a very specific peak pressure and pressure curve in order to make them function properly and reliably. The only way to do this in a 3.7" vs. 13.6" tube (lengths comparing rifled area on Five Seven vs. PS90) is to compromise on the powder burn rate. It's the only way you can possibly get the action to release at the proper time, and with the proper force. The Teflon coating on the cases (plus glued in bullets and primers) also probably got added at a later time, to aid the extraction as they moved to a hotter powder to get the pistol to function properly, accelerate the burn curve a little, and keep primers from popping out.

Now all of this is speculation but it was done after a great deal of thought reverse engineering the how and why of the interior ballistics.

What this means to the casual shooter / reloader is you can develop some *really* nice high velocity rounds for the PS90, if you forego cross compatibility in to the pistol. I'm talking several hundred feet per second over factory, without pressure signs.

Which obviously changes the exterior ballistics, and stretches the range of that compact little gun that much further. A few hundred feet per second is nothing to sneeze at.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:08 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
...plus glued in bullets and primers...
Funny story about that. I once watched a friend try to use a 5.7x28 round to demonstrate his nifty new inertial puller.

*whack* *whack* *whack* *whack* ***? *whack* *whack* *whack*

Just didn't have the heart to tell him the bullet was glued in place.
*whack*
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:18 AM   #57
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The more I read about the performance of the 5.7 and the saga of trying to reload it the less interesting the 5.7 becomes.
Click are those velocities actually from your Five seveN pistol? because that's a good 100 fps faster than any other reports I've seen.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:23 AM   #58
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Yes, those were shot from my Five-Seven over a Shooting Chrony F-1 on a 87 degree day.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh View Post
Funny story about that. I once watched a friend try to use a 5.7x28 round to demonstrate his nifty new inertial puller.

*whack* *whack* *whack* *whack* ***? *whack* *whack* *whack*

Just didn't have the heart to tell him the bullet was glued in place.
*whack*
LOL! Yeah they've got to be seated deeper to break the glue first. Otherwise, you're peeing in the wind.

Decapping Fiocci 5.7 brass is fun. PIIING! ZIIIIIING!

Those sessions need little exploding "BANG! ZOOM!" cut scenes like the old batman series. It's actually kid of fun.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:33 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by mavracer View Post
The more I read about the performance of the 5.7 and the saga of trying to reload it the less interesting the 5.7 becomes.
Click are those velocities actually from your Five seveN pistol? because that's a good 100 fps faster than any other reports I've seen.
LOL As anti 5.7x28 as you've been in this thread, it doesn't sound like you were too interested in the first place.

FYI velocity will change with temp / etc.

The figures I posted from the PS90 lacked environmental data, but they were shot in January 2014 when it was 14 degrees out (Farenheit). Real nasty frigging day. It's quite possible those would be much higher now that it's 90+ F outside, and it might even cause some previously safe loads to show pressure signs, rupture primers, etc.

The powder we are using isn't like high grade rifle powder (such as hodgedon extreme line, etc). It's temperature and positional sensitive. Powder forward/ powder back in the case can dramatically change pressures.

I'm going shopping today to see if I can find some of the new CFE Pistol powder, to start another round of testing on. On paper, at least, it's damn near perfect for the 5.7x28 (in pistol form.)

It's about midway between True Blue (great for pistol) and Longshot (great for PS90), so maybe a better compromise in there, if the bulkiness and burn curve are good. And if it doesn't work out? I'll use it in 9mm or 45.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:41 AM   #61
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LOL As anti 5.7x28 as you've been in this thread, it doesn't sound like you were too interested in the first place.
Actually at one time I was hot on the trail of a Five Seven and I do believe that the P90 is a good system for a very small nitch. It's just that the voice of realism chimes in and says there's better choices to be made.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mavracer View Post
Actually at one time I was hot on the trail of a Five Seven and I do believe that the P90 is a good system for a very small nitch. It's just that the voice of realism chimes in and says there's better choices to be made.
Oh I dunno about a small niche. It's the go-to gun for 5 of 6 shooters in my house.



And the 6th (me) wouldn't feel at all uncomfortable or undergunned out to 200 yards.

Even with factory ammo, putting shots on target with the non magnified factory optics is simple at that distance.



Feel free to use that as a reference point to gauge spin drift and drop w/ factory ammo. I held to the top edge of the bull at 200 yards. That was shot during a High Power sporting rifle match - which I won... gun is FANTASTIC to shoot out to 200 yards standing, and much more stable and MUCH faster to get on target than AR-15's.

Something worth considering; in the 200 yard High Power sporting rifle competitions I've been in, the score I laid down that day in the 80 shot course with the PS90 was never beaten.... by ANYONE.. last year, regardless of what system they used.

That factory-stock PS90 beat the scores I laid down the previous month in High Power sporting rifle, with a SCAR17S, and with an FN-AR w/ Leupold glass and a bipod.

That factory-stock PS90 beat the scores I put down with the H&K SL-8 the month following.

That factory-stock PS90 beat the scores I laid down with my match AR-15 w/ air gauged barrel chambered in wylde 223.

The ONLY place it got whooped up on was midrange prone - that PS90 just doesn't have the oomph to reach out 300+ yards. (I tried, and got a crappy 147/200 string at 300, whereas my AR15/SCAR17 scores are 170/190+).

If you have a PS90 in your hands and know how to use it, ANYTHING under 200 yards that is a threat simply won't BE a threat to you for very long.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:36 PM   #63
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Using a 22 suppressor with and AR57

I saw a couple YouTube videos showing a guy shooting an FN 57 pistol adorned with a Guardian 22 suppressor. I happen to own a G22.

The video does state that the G22 is only suitable for use with the 57 pistol and not the carbine because there is too pressure with the carbine.

So, I got to thinking, the AR57 also comes in a cool-looking 6" barrel which is completely covered up with the forearm. The idea is a suppressor that's under 1.25" in diameter (the G22 is 1") fits inside the forearm attaching to the recessed muzzle.

An FN 57 pistol has a barrel length of 4.8", that's 1.2" shorter than the AR57's 6" barrel: Would the pressure be significantly more with the 6" barrel compared to 4.8" barrel?

Thanks.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bikemutt View Post

An FN 57 pistol has a barrel length of 4.8", that's 1.2" shorter than the AR57's 6" barrel: Would the pressure be significantly more with the 6" barrel compared to 4.8" barrel?

Thanks.
It depends on powder.

That Longshot powder I was using, for instance, has a peak burn rate curve just beyond the length of the standard Five Seven barrel. It *would* - with no doubt - cause dramatically higher pressures at the muzzle in a 6" barrel than a 4.8" barrel. That extra 1.2" is all that is needed to realize the rest of the potential.

Not knowing what powder the factory uses, and not having access to a pressure test barrel or equipment to measure port pressure at various distances, I can't give you an answer because it would be pure speculation.

Is it possible? Oh heck yeah.

Does that mean it's going to be an issue? No idea.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Trent View Post
It depends on powder.

That Longshot powder I was using, for instance, has a peak burn rate curve just beyond the length of the standard Five Seven barrel. It *would* - with no doubt - cause dramatically higher pressures at the muzzle in a 6" barrel than a 4.8" barrel. That extra 1.2" is all that is needed to realize the rest of the potential.

Not knowing what powder the factory uses, and not having access to a pressure test barrel or equipment to measure port pressure at various distances, I can't give you an answer because it would be pure speculation.

Is it possible? Oh heck yeah.

Does that mean it's going to be an issue? No idea.
Thanks Trent.

If I could fit my 30 cal can down that forearm I'd use it sub-caliber, not happening, too fat.
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Old July 11, 2014, 02:26 PM   #66
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If you have a PS90 in your hands and know how to use it, ANYTHING under 200 yards that is a threat simply won't BE a threat to you for very long.
You guy's keep making these bold statements, that just a little fact checking draws some heavy sighs from a thinking man.
At 200 yards that little 40gr bullet is now barely supersonic and is below the velocity that many 22lr rounds produce and has just a bit over 100 ft lbs of energy according to Federal's ballistic tables which start at a claimed velocity of 2250 which you didn't see in the real world.
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Old July 11, 2014, 03:21 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by mavracer View Post
You guy's keep making these bold statements, that just a little fact checking draws some heavy sighs from a thinking man.
At 200 yards that little 40gr bullet is now barely supersonic and is below the velocity that many 22lr rounds produce and has just a bit over 100 ft lbs of energy according to Federal's ballistic tables which start at a claimed velocity of 2250 which you didn't see in the real world.
Speed of sound at 70 degrees Farenheit is 1128 feet per second.

(http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...und-d_603.html)

Running a 40gr bullet at 2100fps (what I clocked factory ammo at this January), at 70 degrees farenheit shows ...



... that it stays supersonic to TWICE that distance - 400 yards, or close to a quarter mile. It's also packing "more than 100 ft/lb" out to 375 yards.

At 200 yards it's hitting with 181ft/lb of energy, well over 1.5x more than a standard velocity 22 at the muzzle. It's enough to turn that 40 gr Hornaday projectile in to a very nasty wound.

It's still pushing as much energy as a 5.56 round shooting 55gr projectiles @ 3200 fps is at 600 yards, and those are still PLENTY lethal at that distance.

Like I said earlier, there ARE limits obviously; the trajectory curve after 200 yards sucks (11" of drop at 200 vs. 37" of drop at 300, which makes it damn hard to compensate for with non-magnified red dot optics.)
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Old July 11, 2014, 04:10 PM   #68
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As I said that was off the Federal Website, so the SS197sr is a bit better now you're solidly in the hyper velocity 22 lr power at 200. Yawn If somebody is shooting at me from 200 yards I'd rather not try to hit them with something I'd use for rabbits if I have a choice.
AND I DO.
BTW it's not supersonic at 400
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Old July 11, 2014, 04:31 PM   #69
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Walkalong, "Too bad there isn't one readily available in .22 Mag."
There is, here is a link; http://www.ray-vin.com
Those who have them over on rimfire central speak highly.
STW
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Old July 11, 2014, 05:09 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikemutt View Post
The video does state that the G22 is only suitable for use with the 57 pistol and not the carbine because there is too pressure with the carbine
No...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bikemutt View Post
...Would the pressure be significantly more with the 6" barrel compared to 4.8" barrel?
...no...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent View Post
It depends on powder.

That Longshot powder I was using, for instance, has a peak burn rate curve just beyond the length of the standard Five Seven barrel. It *would* - with no doubt - cause dramatically higher pressures at the muzzle in a 6" barrel than a 4.8" barrel. That extra 1.2" is all that is needed to realize the rest of the potential...
..and no. The further the bullet travels down the barrel, the more the pressure drops
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Old July 11, 2014, 06:37 PM   #71
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Walkalong, "Too bad there isn't one readily available in .22 Mag."
There is, here is a link; http://www.ray-vin.com
Those who have them over on rimfire central speak highly.
STW
Wow, who knew?

Thanks for the link.
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Old July 11, 2014, 07:33 PM   #72
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No...



...no...


..and no. The further the bullet travels down the barrel, the more the pressure drops
Please forgive my ignorance on the matter but, if what propels a bullet is pressure and it's well known that the same bullet exits a rifle with significantly greater velocity that a pistol, how could the pressure in the rifle barrel be less?
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Old July 11, 2014, 08:42 PM   #73
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..and no. The further the bullet travels down the barrel, the more the pressure drops
Incorrect... powder burn is in a curve and peak pressure is definitely not always at the throat.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:21 PM   #74
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I'm pretty surprised, too, since 5.7 has such fast powder and so little of it, and a rifle primer, to boot. As small as it is, it seems hard to imagine it is very overbore. Has anyone actually plotted a pressure curve for 5.7? I looked into it, since I'm trying to design a gas-operated 5.7x28 carbine, and found that Quickload is apparently horrible at predicting max pressures (and in the unsafe direction, too ). I think you could back out the data using measured velocities for progressively-shorter barrels, but you'd still have a hard time capturing the peak of the wave which would be very near to or past the chamber throat.

What may be muddying the issue is that powder burn and pressure won't necessarily correlate, since the chamber volume is changing so radically relative to the case size. Powder could still be burning, but the bullet already driven fast enough by the initial pressure spike that pressures continue to drop. I'm pretty sure you'd need super-delayed two-stage powders to both drive the bullet down the pipe, then drive pressures higher (but that's not the same thing as 'burn rate'). I have no idea how burn rate is calculated or simulated, but I know it can't be measured as easily as pressure, which is I thought why most internal ballistics works on pressure figures.

Quote:
That Longshot powder I was using, for instance, has a peak burn rate curve just beyond the length of the standard Five Seven barrel. It *would* - with no doubt - cause dramatically higher pressures at the muzzle in a 6" barrel than a 4.8" barrel. That extra 1.2" is all that is needed to realize the rest of the potential...
I thought for sure you originally meant velocity rather than pressure. I fully expect that velocity is most efficiently generated right around the length of the pistol that was designed with/around the cartridge. I also understand how the slower-burning round slated for the carbine would have trouble transferring sufficient energy in the 1/3rd length barrel of the pistol, drastically limiting its effectiveness.

Quote:
Please forgive my ignorance on the matter but, if what propels a bullet is pressure and it's well known that the same bullet exits a rifle with significantly greater velocity that a pistol, how could the pressure in the rifle barrel be less?
In most (all?) other pistol cartridges, the powder is almost fully engulfed before the bullet has moved much at all, or is in the process of burning. Between the decomposition into gas components and super high temperatures also generated, this is when pressures peak. After this point, the chamber volume increases as the bullet moves away, and there is no more powder to burn and generate gas volume and heat; the result is pressures and temperatures drop rapidly. A shorter barrel can't drop as much as a longer rifle barrel before the muzzle opens, but that doesn't mean huge pressures aren't still accelerating the bullet. Even though pressure may have dropped to only a few thousand psi at a long muzzle vs. a short one, there's still hundreds of pounds bearing on the bullet (and rifling only saps about 100lb from that).

To correlate the pressure curve to velocity, you need the integral, or sum, of pressure times area (force) on the bullet for the duration it's in the bore. A rifle drives a bullet longer, with decreasing force, so the net energy imparted is more than a truncated section of the same curve you'd get from a pistol. Eventually, pressures drop enough that the bullet slows down (like 9mm from a 16" barrel, IIRC) but are still high enough to make noise once uncorked --not much though.

TCB

Last edited by barnbwt; July 11, 2014 at 09:28 PM.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:30 PM   #75
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Physics disagrees, Trent. Peak pressure occurs where the bullet meets the greatest resistance and that's where it begins it's journey in the rifling.

bikemutt, as the bullet travels along the barrel, the volume increases. As volume increases, pressure decreases. Pressure also decreases because the gasses are also losing heat. The reason the bullet comes out faster is because the gas, without anything to restrict it's speed, expands at a constant velocity of about 5700 feet per second. The speed and pressure accelerates is constantly accelerating the bullet. Once the bullet gets going, there doesn't need to be as much pressure to keep accelerating it. It's that old Newtonian physics at work for ya- Objects in motion tend to stay in motion; Objects that are not in motion tend to stay motionless.

Here's another thing to think about- the mass of the gas is only about 23 grains or so- the mass of the powder charge
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