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Old July 11, 2014, 02:00 AM   #1
mikemyers
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How tightly to grip your revolver

When I read advice from good people, or should I say people I think are good, I often think it's probably better than what I do on my own, so I try to use and learn from what I've read.

Years ago, I used to hold my guns (mostly revolvers) in a way that felt comfortable. Then I read that you should hold a revolver as tight as you can, right up to the point where your muscles start to quiver. Lots more reading, lots more opinions, and the last one was to "hold your revolver no tighter than you'd hold a lady's hand, were you to shake hands with her".


Fast forward to today at my local range. I had gone through two targets with around 15 shots in each, and while most of the holes were where I thought they might be, based on my own ability, each target had two or maybe three holes way off, either up or down or both. I only load 3 bullets into my revolver, leaving three cylinders empty, so I'll know if I'm flinching (when the front sight moves as I release the trigger). I was pretty sure that was my problem, but I couldn't get my hand to "relax" and stop doing stuff that messed up my aim.

I stopped for a few minutes, wondering what to do differently. On a hunch, I stopped holding the gun so tightly, and followed that last bit of advice - holding the gun no harder than if I was shaking someone's hand. Voila!! for the rest of that target, and the following target, there were no more "wild shots". Zero. I had the feeling that my hand was more relaxed, and therefore there would be less of a tendency for some muscle to move the gun one way or another.

Also, I read that when you squeeze the trigger with a relaxed hand, the other fingers are less likely to move the gun as you're taking the shot.



Before anyone starts thinking I'm better than I really am, consider that I'm 70 now, and have just finally gotten to where I can shoot 3" groups at 15 yards. I'll post the last target from today, so everyone reading this knows I'm just an amateur, trying to learn, not someone trying to say how to do anything.... although the above change does seem to work better for me..... along with dry-firing day after day, every day, for at least half an hour every day.


Squares are one inch. Bull is three inches diameter.
Target is designed to make it easy to enter all hole locations into a spreadsheet to calculate CEP.


If I have a goal right now, it's to get to where I can shoot 2" diameter groups with the same gun (S&W 357 Magnum Highway Patrolman) shooting 38 Special ammo at 15 yards distance, slow fire.
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Old July 11, 2014, 02:32 AM   #2
Drail
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I was always taught that you should use about the same grip you would use to grip a hammer when driving nails. When I first started shooting big bore magnum revolvers I tried to use more strength in my grip to control the recoil forces. It doesn't work. The harder you grip the less control you have and as you found you'll simply overwork the muscles and tire more quickly. You can either fight the recoil (you'll lose that fight) or just ride the recoil and let it dissipate itself. My scores went up when I stopped fighting it. Dry firing is a great help with trigger control. I always agreed with Jeff Cooper on the
"surprise trigger break". You "know" the gun is about to fire in the next millisecond but you don't really want to know exactly "when". If your sights are lined up perfectly and the shot slightly surprises you - you'll hit the bull. Relax, breathe, and "let" the gun fire - don't "make" it fire. And most importantly watch how the sight moves when the gun fires. Up, down, left, right. You only want to see it lift straight up out of the notch and return to exactly where it was. If you see that - you're doing it right.

Last edited by Drail; July 11, 2014 at 02:39 AM.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:13 AM   #3
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Quote:
The harder you grip the less control you have and as you found you'll simply overwork the muscles and tire more quickly.
That has been my experience as well. The gun needs to be allowed to recoil and your arms and shoulders serve as the shock absorbers. If you fight the recoil your shooting will suffer because you will become fatigued really quickly. Trigger control goes south also if you are squeezing a grip too tightly, as you are asking your trigger finger to do something contrary to the rest of your hand.

A firm grip that keeps your hands from shifting around when the gun recoils is really all you need, and for me, results in better shooting, regardless of cartridge or gun.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:28 AM   #4
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There are different thoughts on the subject - some really good shooters (e.g. the late Bill Blankenship) advocate a death grip. Personally, a very firm grip has always worked best for me.

Another element of grip that's important is to grip that gun high. Too many grip a revolver too low. When you look from the side, you shouldn't see backstrap peeking out from your thumb/forefinger webbing. The pics below may not be the best on the topic, but note the high grip.



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Old July 11, 2014, 09:40 AM   #5
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Depends on which revolver I'm shooting and what kind of loads are being shot.

In general, anything below 4" I'll have better luck with a death grip. Anything bigger and heavier, I can use a firm grip and do just fine.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:49 AM   #6
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For a double action revolver I do best with merely a firm grip, just like when shooting an autoloader.

For a single action revolver, I do better by relaxing my grip a bit.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:12 AM   #7
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Semi-relaxed grip with strong hand. Firm grip with support hand.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:14 AM   #8
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Mr.McBorland, your grip looks exactly like Jerry Miculek's grip. Great photo by the way.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:15 AM   #9
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A firm grip but no firmer than you would shaking someone's hand. Should be the same, whether it's a .22 or a .500. Which leads me to.....


Quote:
Another element of grip that's important is to grip that gun high.
That might work fine for speed shooting but anything with heavy recoil will split your web doing that. Consistency is the key and I would not want to train two different grips for different recoil levels. If I were a competitor, I'd probably be comfortable with the high grip but since I may grab anything from a K-22 to a 629MG or .480 SRH, no way.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:44 AM   #10
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I think another aspect of gripping a revolver that is all too often overlooked is having a grip that truely fits your hand. To me, the fact that most modern DA/SA revolver grips are fully customizable and can be modified far more than 95% of the semiautos out there will always make revolvers a better shooting platform for me. My hands are not quite "standard" sized, and all the custom grip makers offer a plethora of choices to fit different shooters.

If a grip fits you as it should, fills your hand appropriately, allows you to grip the gun high, and ensures a proper trigger reach, then the gun should not be shifting around in your hand during recoil. A properly customized grip that fits the shooter will often negate the need for a "death grip" and improve accuracy, and follow up shot recovery.

All too often I hear on THR "That gun beat my hand up so bad! I don't ever want to shoot that cartridge again!" Well, it isn't that the recoil was so bad from a particular cartridge, as the grip was likely too small for your hand, and the gun battered you as it shifted in your grip.

Tolerance for muzzle blast is another issue though.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:48 PM   #11
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mikemyers,

may i make a few suggestions now that you are shooting so well:

whatever your stance, keep your weight on the balls of your feet (see photo of mr. boreland above).

make recoil your friend, not your enemy (psychological).

follow through on every shot (especially the last shot) - don't quit on the shot at the hammer fall. keep the same grip and stance a bit after the shot so the bullet has a chance to get out the end of the barrel the same every time.

luck,

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Old July 11, 2014, 12:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigC
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBorland
Another element of grip that's important is to grip that gun high.
That might work fine for speed shooting but anything with heavy recoil will split your web doing that.
I guess our techniques must differ. The last time I was shooting a friend's S&W .500, I got as high on the frame as I could and didn't have any ill effects to show from 3 quick shots.

I don't lock my elbows and use my arm muscles to absorb the recoil/muzzle rise...saves my shoulder joints too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 460Kodiak
Well, it isn't that the recoil was so bad from a particular cartridge, as the grip was likely too small for your hand, and the gun battered you as it shifted in your grip.
I've found that most people use grips that are too large for their hands. This compromises correct hand placement and contributes to the gun battering their joints
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Old July 11, 2014, 01:01 PM   #13
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I've found that most people use grips that are too large for their hands. This compromises correct hand placement and contributes to the gun battering their joints
Interesting. That would be the other side of things I guess.
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Old July 11, 2014, 02:33 PM   #14
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With most double actions the high grip as shown by MrBorland and Jerry Miculek in his videos is the right way. It feels odd as heck because it feels like the trigger finger has to reach down too much. But the dynamics work and the result is a more easily controlled sight picture during the long DA pull.

For grip pressure I've always found that a death grip makes it very hard to isolate my trigger finger from my other muscles. So I find I end up pulling the trigger with my whole hand. And that really messes up the sight picture stability. And those I've coached that gripped too hard also found that easing up a little gave them better accuracy.

For amount of grip I always went with "a good firm but still friendly hand shake where you're not trying to bust any knuckles". But the advice from Drail about holding it the same as when driving framing nails is great. And likely more meaningful to those with some carpentry days under their belts. It's the sort of grip that let's you shoot all day or drive nails all day. A full on death grip, in either case, will see you with serious arm and hand pain pretty quickly.
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Old July 11, 2014, 02:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Drail View Post
Mr.McBorland, your grip looks exactly like Jerry Miculek's grip. Great photo by the way.
Well, no, not exactly. Jerry locks his thumbs together, as he tells you in his videos.
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Old July 11, 2014, 05:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by beag_nut
Well, no, not exactly. Jerry locks his thumbs together, as he tells you in his videos.
Yep. If I posted a pic taken from the other side, you'd see it clearly. Unfortunately, it'd quickly derail the thread, so I won't post the pic . Jerry has his way, but it's not the only way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 460Kodiak
A properly customized grip that fits the shooter will often negate the need for a "death grip" and improve accuracy, and follow up shot recovery.
460K makes a good point about grip - it ain't all about grip strength, per se. A good grip is one where the gun's muzzle returns to the same place after each shot.

If the gun moves in your hand, you have to change your grip, which affects how the gun moves as the bullet's going down the barrel. A firm grip and stocks that fit were already mentioned, so I'll just add that a "neutral" grip is also important. A grip is neutral when either of your gripping hands alone won't push the gun.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:37 PM   #17
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I try to grip consistently, but with several frame size DA and several SA revolvers, there has to be some variations based on the gun's ergonomics. Still, I try to grip no firmer than necessary - one key item I've found is to make sure that I fit the handgun well into the palm of my strong hand before I wrap my fingers around it. Getting the back of the grip properly centered into the meaty web area between the thumb and index finger and not tilted against bone one way or the other helps me with grip control and not torquing things when squeezing the trigger - whether on a J frame snub or a large frame Ruger, or small semi.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murf View Post
  • whatever your stance, keep your weight on the balls of your feet (see photo of mr. boreland above).
  • make recoil your friend, not your enemy (psychological).
  • follow through on every shot (especially the last shot) - don't quit on the shot at the hammer fall. keep the same grip and stance a bit after the shot so the bullet has a chance to get out the end of the barrel the same every time.
Thanks - the second and third suggestions I'm already trying to follow, but I never even considered what my feet are doing......

I don't have any problem with the gun moving around inside my hands - I have the opposite problem, that the gun, with original wood grips, is probably a bit too large for my hands. If the back of my hand is directly behind the gun, in DA my trigger finger has trouble properly reaching the trigger, and if my trigger finger is where I think it's supposed to be, right at the joint, the back of the gun is probably a bit too far to the left of where I think it should be..... I never even noticed this until just now, as I was trying to (dryfire) in DA. And one more thing - if I want to keep using DA, I better build up the muscles in my trigger finger, as after six or seven shots (dryfire) in DA, it barely has enough strength left for the next shot, and it starts to "wobble".... :-)
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Old July 12, 2014, 12:14 AM   #19
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The gun will do odd things if the backstrap isn't sitting pretty close to centered in the web between thumb and forefinger. So that IS an issue.

But the good news is that for DA you don't need your finger so far onto the trigger that it's sitting in the fold of the last joint. I've got big hands and long fingers. But even so I only lay my finger to the trigger that way for SA mode. For DA the trigger rests a little outward of the fold.

Mind you there's no arguing that the group you got with that last target after you relaxed a little isn't a good one. For us older folks that got "old guy eye'tis and old guy shaky nerv'itis" 3 at 15 is nothing to be ashamed of. 2" WOULD be nicer but you're well on your way if you're able to jump to a nice 3" group right away after that one change to your style. It shows that you have the rest of the stuff down good.
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Old July 12, 2014, 08:34 AM   #20
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From the US Army Marksmanship Unit training guide:

"The tighter the grip, short of setting up a tremble, the better the control. The degree of pressure that should be exerted in gripping the pistol is determined by the condition of the muscles that do the gripping. Frequent practice, experience and certain exercises promote a strong grip and have a bearing on when a tremble will begin. "

This advice holds true for all calibers and all shooting techniques including Nation/International rapid fire.
This is what I was taught on the 2nd Army pistol team and every civilian symposium I've attended.

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Old July 12, 2014, 10:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
The gun will do odd things if the backstrap isn't sitting pretty close to centered in the web between thumb and forefinger. So that IS an issue. ........... But the good news is that for DA you don't need your finger so far onto the trigger that it's sitting in the fold of the last joint. I've got big hands and long fingers. ........ For DA the trigger rests a little outward of the fold.
Thanks for your comments!! To me, "2 at 15" (I love the way you simplify that!) is the minimum before I would start feeling good about my accuracy, but a year ago, I would have said the same about "3 at 15"!

Logically, it makes sense to me that the back of the gun needs to rest in my hand the way you describe. Otherwise, it's much harder to pull the trigger straight back, as my hand is holding the gun at an angle. So, starting now, for DA, the gun will be in my right hand just the way it's supposed to be.

Of course, that brings up the minor issue of my trigger finger not reaching far enough through the trigger area so that I can pull on the trigger using the joint on my finger. This means, in your words, "For DA the trigger rests a little outward of the fold". That brings up the problem of how to pull the trigger using the soft fleshy spot near the end of my trigger finger. Before I got the gun cleaned, this wasn't even possible - I didn't have enough strength in my finger to do so, period. Now I find I can do so, but my finger is on the verge of "quivering", and after five or so pulls, it feels like it's going out on strike, and refuses to do more. The only answer I know of for that is a whole lot of practice, every day, until those muscles get better.


Plan B of course might mean finding a gunsmith who can improve the trigger. ......and in order to describe what's going on, I think I need to be able to measure things correctly, so what I write here makes sense to others - I can't just say my trigger is hard to pull, I need to find a way to measure how strong the trigger pull actually is. So later today, I guess I'm going to start searching for a way that an ordinary person with no special equipment can improvise a way to measure trigger pull in a repeatable manner.
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Old July 12, 2014, 10:53 AM   #22
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Great post, Mikemyers. I favor revolvers too, but I don't consider myself any expert. I qualify readily enough with my Detective Special for CCP purposes, and I've studied Mr. Michulek's videos, but I'm not convinced there is any single absolute best grip, stance, etc. The different configurations of guns and differences in each shooter's stature, weight, balance, strength, and training create a vast array of combinations. I've concluded that training with an experienced instructor and tons of practice with the same weapon(s) will go a long way toward developing successful body mechanics. I can see how the Army would need a consistent set of principles to teach to large groups at a time. Those techniques may not work the best for every individual. Kudos to you for seeking the method that works best for you!

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Old July 12, 2014, 11:12 AM   #23
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Tight enough that my square-butt revolver is now a round-butt.

Seriously, consistency of grip is probably more important than anything else. Once you find a gripping style that works for YOU with YOUR handgun, you probably are on the right track.

If I grip any firearm as hard as I can, I lose dexterity in my trigger finger, and my natural point of aim also suffers. I try to keep a firm grip with my thumb and middle finger, and the other two fingers (ring and pinky) are used more for "indexing" than for actual "gripping."
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Old July 12, 2014, 02:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
That brings up the problem of how to pull the trigger using the soft fleshy spot near the end of my trigger finger. Before I got the gun cleaned, this wasn't even possible - I didn't have enough strength in my finger to do so, period.......Plan B of course might mean finding a gunsmith who can improve the trigger.
I went back to check out which gun you have. Turns out I've got a 28 Highway Patrolman as well.

For a range gun the fix for your trigger is as simple as an order to Wolff springs for a S&W spring kit. Swap out the main spring and fit the lightest rebound block return spring in the kit. You'll find that the change is outstanding.

The rebound block spring does have a tendency to want to leap away when replacing it. I found that a simple 1/4 inch wide thin screwdriver if ground so it's got a "V" point on the nose makes a great tool for putting the spring and block back into place. Grind the tip so the point of the V is in the middle and the angle between the sides is fairly open at around 120 to 130 degrees. You want the point to center in the spring but not hold firmly when you push the block back down over the spring retention pin.

This will suddenly make total sense when you have the side cover off the gun and see the workings.

Remember or look on You Tube for videos of how to "bump out" the side cover using a plastic or rubber handled screwdriver or plastic hammer. Do NOT pry it out.

Since you've got a smaller reach you might want to look into some K frame options such as the models 10, 14, 15, 19, 66 and on and on and on. There's a long list of K frame guns. I find that some of the grips seem to be more small hand friendly on the K frame guns. In particular the round butt options that will let the heel of a smaller hand wrap around the back strap more fully instead of being pushed away. I guess the expectation is that bigger folks will buy the N frame guns so the grips that are available tend to be larger for the bigger hands. But perhaps with a bit of checking or dealing with a more custom maker you could get some grips that suit smaller hands better.

If you're a bit of a wood worker at all another option is to find a set of chewed up "target grips" for cheap and file or rasp them to suit your hands.
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Old July 13, 2014, 12:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
......For a range gun the fix for your trigger is as simple as an order to Wolff springs for a S&W spring kit. Swap out the main spring and fit the lightest rebound block return spring in the kit. You'll find that the change is outstanding.
I have the Wilsoncombat spring kit, but the main spring was the wrong type and didn't fit. I have 3 return springs, 12#, 13#, and 14#, but I was thinking of putting the stock 18# spring back in because of a problem of the trigger not returning all the way. I should order the Wolff kit anyway - and hopefully by the time it arrives, I'll be proficient at changing springs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
The rebound block spring does have a tendency to want to leap away when replacing it. I found that a simple 1/4 inch wide thin screwdriver if ground so it's got a "V" point on the nose makes a great tool for putting the spring and block back into place. Grind the tip so the point of the V is in the middle and the angle between the sides is fairly open at around 120 to 130 degrees. You want the point to center in the spring but not hold firmly when you push the block back down over the spring retention pin.
Thanks! That sounds easier than what I was planning to do - my carpet swallows stuff up, and never gives things back for ages....


Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
Since you've got a smaller reach you might want to look into some K frame options.......
I have a model 19-3, which is easy for me to shoot, but I decided the Highway Patrolman would be a better gun for learning with.....
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