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Old July 14, 2014, 01:58 PM   #26
bds
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The creation of 40S&W story by bds:

In the beginning, God created the 45ACP and it was good. John Browning built the 1911 pistol to shoot the 45ACP and it was also good.

Then God created the 9mm for carbines and it was good.

Then God created the 10mm and it was good and people were awed by its power.

Then God's people sinned by shooting 9mm out of short barreled pistols and tried to meet major power factor by shooting dangerously loaded cartridges and God was not happy.

So God created the 40S&W from 10mm to:

- Have better terminal ballistics when shot from short barreled pistols
- Better meet major power factor
- Shoot 9mm/357Sig with conversion barrels
- Maintain high capacity count in double stack magazines
- Maintain similar pistol frame/grip size as 9mm pistols

And God saw that it was good and His people rejoiced.

And I am sticking to this story.
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Old July 14, 2014, 02:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bds View Post
The creation of 40S&W story by bds:

In the beginning, God created the 45ACP and it was good. John Browning built the 1911 pistol to shoot the 45ACP and it was also good.

Then God created the 9mm for carbines and it was good.

Then God created the 10mm and it was good and people were awed by its power.

Then God's people sinned by shooting 9mm out of short barreled pistols and tried to meet major power factor by shooting dangerously loaded cartridges and God was not happy.

So God created the 40S&W from 10mm to:

- Have better terminal ballistics when shot from short barreled pistols
- Better meet major power factor
- Shoot 9mm/357Sig with conversion barrels
- Maintain high capacity count in double stack magazines
- Maintain similar pistol frame/grip size as 9mm pistols

And God saw that it was good and His people rejoiced.

And I am sticking to this story.
LOL Nice story
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Old July 14, 2014, 02:09 PM   #28
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Apparently, despite being told for the last 35 years there is no "magic bullet", folks today seem to believe technology has now given us a "magic bullet". The 9mm is just as good as the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP they say.

Sorry boys and girls but I'm too old to by the magic bullet claims. 45ACPs have been stopping bad guys (the exceptional examples aside) since 1911. I going to fade into the sunset still carrying and shooting 45 ACPs.

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Old July 14, 2014, 03:01 PM   #29
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Wow! A 40 S&W thread which has gone over 25 posts, with all fairly informative discourse and no malice. What gives? I'm proud of you guys :-)
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr40 View Post
The real blame for the 1986 fiasco in Miami was poor tactics. The 9mm and 38 handguns used by the FBI at the time took the blame.
This book makes an excellent defense of the tactics and especially the marksmanship of the FBI and blames poor terminal performance (particularly with respect to penetration) of the ammunition. It is very persuasive.

The 158gr .38 +P load has a poor reputation for expansion but penetrates quite well. I would not lump it in with the light weight 9mm used in the shootout.

When Platt was hit in the leg with the 158gr load it missed bone and vessels and had very little effect, the torso hits at the end of the gunfight were much more effective. The conclusions were that a compromise between expansion and penetration (>12" but no more than 18") was needed. The FBI recently reviewed this standard based on the most recent field data and chose not to change it.

Platt was shot through the arm and lung with a 9mm round that touched but did not penetrate his heart at the beginning of the shootout. 1.3L of blood was found in the lung. Platt has always been considered one tough bastard but Anderson's book lays out the case that Matix's ability to regain consciousness, understand the situation, and change cars after his massive head wound was even more remarkable.

Mike

PS. Handguns are marginal weapons anyway. In this real-life gunfight both the cops and the bad guy take multiple .45 hits: http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/ind...aphic-content/
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:17 PM   #31
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I didn't know that the 40 s&w round was normally such a heated topic? I only ever never owned the more powerful rounds (40, 45, 10mm), but I just brought a 40s&w m&p shield for a good price BEFORE doing my homework about the caliber. Some of what I was reading about the 40mm didn't make much logical sense to me though.
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:20 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxidike View Post
Were was he shot? In the Miami shooting, it was later found that one of the shooters was hit in the chest early on in the gun fight, but the bullet failed to penetrate.

I'm more concerned about if I have to shoot through barriers, will there be enough energy left to penetrate through flesh, tendons, and bone to the point to stop the attacker from shooting or advancing.
The article was not specific on the shot placement other than seven rounds were above the belt line and I'm sure the rounds were all fmj and since all were fired from a Thompson with a longer barrel than any pistol penetration must have been more than adaquet.
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
I didn't know that the 40 s&w round was normally such a heated topic?
A vs B always get heated some people beleive that there is a right answer, whitch leads them to think anyone who chooses something else is saying their wrong.
Defensive handguns will always be a compramise, as such there is no one answer.
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:39 PM   #34
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The FBI Murders; Platt-Matix....

I agree that part of the problem with the "FBI Shoot-Out" also called the Platt Matix Shootout, was poor tactics/bad plans.
The FBI unit had a "rolling surveillance" on the 2 subjects & made the wrong decision to conduct a felony traffic stop on them in a residential neighborhood.
The reason for the stop was that they knew both men were armed with multiple weapons & they wanted to stop them before they could pull an armed robbery. Both Platt and Matix were US Army veterans(Airborne Ranger & MP). They each had extended training in firearms & tactics. ME reports also said neither subject had any drugs, medications or alcohol in their systems.

The FBI & it's Firearms Training Unit later T&Eed the 10mm round as a replacement for the .38spl revolvers & 9x19mm S&W pistols. Agents & sworn personnel had problems with the full power 10mm loads so the FBI developed the "10mm lite", a 180gr 10mm bullet with less blast & recoil.
This request by the FBI & DoJ/NIJ led Winchester and S&W to produce the .40S&W round. In tests, the .40 did well. It had power but didn't wear out the firearms or cause recoil like a 10mm. The CA Highway Patrol in 1990 picked the new S&W 4006 as a duty sidearm. This made 100s of LE agencies take notice of the .40S&W. Soon the .40S&W gained popularity as new rounds like the 165gr & 155gr JHPs came online. PDs had member of service/use of force events with these .40S&W loads that looked like the old .357magnum, 94-96% "one shot stops".
As the 1990s went on, the .40S&W grew. SIG's P229, the Beretta 96D/96F/96G & the S&W 4046/4043/4006 models increased in use by sworn LE and the general public.

If you can, I suggest watching the NBC TV film The FBI Murders. See www.imdb.com or www.imfdb.org .
It's on basic cable networks a few times too.
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Old July 14, 2014, 03:43 PM   #35
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Law enforcement back in that day was completely satisfied with terminal performance of the popular 158 grain lead semi-wad cutter revolver round. When agencies went to semi-autos, 9mm bullet technology simply wasn't there, hence the quest for something else. It was not long, however, before the Remington Golden Saber bullet emerged from the lab in 9mm, setting a new standard. Despite all hoopla since the Miami shootout, both the 158 grain FBI/Chicago wad cutter revo load and the 9mm Golden Saber semi auto round in P and +P remain viable options for serious work. The only serious rivals to date of the 9mm GS round have been the 10 mm (impractical for many shooters), the 357 SIG (too loud) and the FN-5.7(possibly heir to the throne).
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Old July 14, 2014, 04:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Jim Watson wrote,
FBI 9mm ammo in 1986 was Winchester 115 gr Silvertip.
Still in production, but superceded in law enforcement by better designed hollowpoints.
Jim is correct.

The 9MM rounds popular at the time followed the "energy dump" theory. High speed, light weight, rapid expansion, shallow penetrators. There were even the SuperVel 9MM rounds with a 90gr bullet that were popular at the time. In the ensuing years there became a desire for more penetration. If you notice over the years, the 124gr bullet came back in fashion.

Of course, with ballistic gel and all the testing available to modern ammo builders, practically all rounds (9MM, .357SIG, 40S&W, and .45Auto) have pretty much the same penetration with the high end bullets.
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Old July 14, 2014, 04:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
The FBI & it's Firearms Training Unit later T&Eed the 10mm round as a replacement for the .38spl revolvers & 9x19mm S&W pistols. Agents & sworn personnel had problems with the full power 10mm loads so the FBI developed the "10mm lite", a 180gr 10mm bullet with less blast & recoil.
The FBI tested and adopted the 10mm in the "FBI lite" form they never concidered the full power ammo.
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:00 PM   #38
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40's have more capacity than 45's and more power than 9mm's. The only thing most people hate about the 40 is the snappier recoil which mostly gives more muzzle flip. I think the 40 just scares them when they shoot it

But seriously it does have more muzzle flip and perceived recoil than 9's and 45's of similar size. I bought the hype years ago about the 40 being the best of both worlds, but now I carry 9, 40, and 45 with no discretion. 40 is a good round just like 9 and 45. What I would like to know is what led to the development of the 357 sig cartridge
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:13 PM   #39
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I agree with most of what has been said, however, if there is one thing that sticks out is that now the FBI has published a standard. We can agree or dis-agree with the standard, but there is a standard the when met will make your caliber/gun/ammo combination considered OK. So, the ammo companies when out and did what was necessary to meet the specification.
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
From my reading, the 40sw was created because it was later found that at least 1 of the 2 men in the Miami shootout was shot in the chest (almost hit the heart), but the bullet did not penetrate enough to put him down
Modern 9mm defensive ammo has come a long way since the early 1980s.
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:34 PM   #41
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.38spl +Ps, semi auto pistols.....

I disagree with the notion that US law enforcement had no problem with the "FBI load" or "Chicago load", 158gr lead SWC-HP +P. The round(bullet) was better than other common .38spl loads US law enforcement used in the 1900s but it didn't replace a semi auto pistol round. Drug gangs & "cocaine cowboys" were flush with full auto & semi auto weapons.
US police unions & officers pled to get better weapons(sidearms). No US law enforcement agency was pushing for new .38spl loads or magnum revolvers. They all requested & got(in some progressive places) semi auto pistols in different calibers.
My large county sheriff's office went from the S&W 686 .357magnum(with Winchester Silvertips, .357magnum) to the Beretta 92F 9mm(Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP) to the current Glock 21 .45acp(2002, duty round; Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP).
In the post Platt-Matix era(late 1980s/early 1990s), many cops & federal agents switched to the heavy 147gr JHP 9x19mm.
The "Hush Puppy" sub-sonic loads were vogue because they offered improved ballistics over the 115gr JHPs & Silvertips.
I liked & would have used a 124gr JHP +P as a duty round & used 124gr milspec FMJs for practice.
It's important to keep in mind that ballistics & engineering has improved greatly since the 1986 Platt-Matix incident. Don't confuse or distort the handgun rounds or designs available in 2014 with those used in 1986 or the early 1990s.
An argument could be made for using a 9x19mm sidearm today. Top instructors like Hamilton Yam & Pat Rodgers(retired NYPD & USMCR veteran) say they use M&P full size 9x19mm pistols as carry guns.

Rusty
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Old July 14, 2014, 06:04 PM   #42
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I've found the best way to understand the .40 is to think of it as the 10mm Special to the original 10mm Magnum...

Perhaps someday they'll find a problem it's the solution to.
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Old July 14, 2014, 06:38 PM   #43
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There's really no way to put a full sized 10mm into a double-action, double column magazine semi-auto that somebody who can't palm a regulation basketball can comfortably shoot, especially one handed.

Absent a 10mm double-action Broomhandle Mauser or Bergmann-Bayard, it's .40S&W or nothing.
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Old July 14, 2014, 06:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Perhaps someday they'll find a problem it's the solution to.
How about the problem of not having hands like an orangutan?

I can comfortably shoot an M1911.

I can comfortably shoot a Glock 22.

There's NO double-action 10mm auto ever made that I can comfortably shoot, especially one handed.
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Old July 14, 2014, 07:28 PM   #45
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Have you ever shot a Tanfoglio in 10mm? The one I have is SAO, but many small-handed people (including women) have pronounced it comfortable to hold (and shoot, with downloaded rounds).
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Old July 14, 2014, 07:37 PM   #46
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Why was the 40s&w invented?
'Cause, you know, certain folk at the FBI couldn't handle even a downloaded 10mm around qualification time, and, well, Mulder & Scully b*tched a lot about their hands hurting during range training (in between running here & there on X-file investigations), and many of Scully's female counterparts threatened to sue over "excessive recoil" and "male-imposed" firearms training standards, ... and, well, dumbing down an effective cartridge so that your people can qualify always makes for a more harmonious working environment than actually holding them accountable to said training standands, ... and then, most importantly, there's not having to hear:

WAH! WAH! WAH!
Where's that frickin' WHAAAMMM-bulance!?
My hands really hurt!
Okay, can we go back to a 9mm now!?
Seriously ... my frickin' hands are stinging!



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Old July 14, 2014, 07:52 PM   #47
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I should clarify that while law enforcement in general had no reservations about the FBI/Chicago 158 grain load, it did need to move on from revolvers to semi automatic pistols to increase available handgun firepower. Unfortunately there was nothing on the market for semi autos at the time which could duplicate the efficacy of the FBI round. I apologize for the confusion.

Knowing that some will jump to defend the .45 ACP, note that Ed Lovette writing in "The Snubby Revolver" contended the FBI load with its semi-wad cutter hollowpoint bullet exhibited approximately the same terminal ballistics as round ball .45 ammo.

And finally, wasn't it a final FBI load fired from a revolver into one of the perps in the Miami shootout that ended the fight?
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Old July 14, 2014, 08:21 PM   #48
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Post #46.....

Post #46 is true. But I don't recall any scenes of the Fox hit series; The X Files where either Fox or Scully complained about the 10mm sidearms.
FWIW; they never used S&W 10mm pistols. Both FBI characters packed stainless 5906 9x19mm guns because they worked better with blanks/SFX.
See www.IMFDb.org .

As for the civil actions, the AG; Janet Reno allowed the DoJ/FBI to switch. She wanted to promote the EEO & open SOPs of the federal employment programs.

EDIT; To clarify, the 1986 Miami FBI gunfight ended when SA Mireles(check spelling) used a 12ga pump shotgun to kill the remaining subject still alive. The brave agent racked the shotgun one-handed & made a "last stand" run at the violent felon.
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Old July 14, 2014, 08:21 PM   #49
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It was a 158 gr semi-wadcutter hollow point fired from a 38 Special snub nosed revolver that ended the fight. The shot was well placed. I believe the agent was shooting left handed because his right hand was shot up
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Old July 14, 2014, 08:46 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjones45
The only thing most people hate about the 40 is the snappier recoil which mostly gives more muzzle flip. I think the 40 just scares them when they shoot it
That's where pistol selection, training and trigger time come into play. If you haven't replaced your recoil spring and your pistol recoil is snappier than new, consider replacing the worn out spring with a new one. Glock recoil spring is about $7 and a new unit will soften the recoil significantly and should be changed after several thousand rounds of full-power loads.

My wife shoots G22 and travels with G27 (with +1 Pearce mag base) and my sister shoots M&P40 comfortably and accurately enough to think about shooting matches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanimator
There's really no way to put a full sized 10mm into a double-action, double column magazine semi-auto that somebody who can't palm a regulation basketball can comfortably shoot
I can't palm a regulation basketball but can comfortably grip a Glock 20SF, which has grip slightly longer than G22.
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