Quantcast
s&w m&p hate - Page 2 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Handguns: Autoloaders

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 15, 2014, 10:58 PM   #26
ugaarguy
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: March 19, 2006
Posts: 10,491
Quote:
If the rule is 10 pound minimum, there's no sense in going beyond that.
No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Or the same as these guys posting on the web?

Quote:
My Walther PPS, which was distributed by S&W, had a trigger well over 12 pounds. They, too, are well-known for absurdly heavy triggers in Massachusetts.
Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?
ugaarguy is offline  
Old July 15, 2014, 11:40 PM   #27
Praxidike
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 18, 2013
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaarguy View Post
No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Orthe same as these guys posting on the web?


Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?
Good point... Seems like many gun owners go on forums and YouTube to bash a gun or gun maker without knowing all the facts or what they're talking about.

Me, I like American made Rugers and S&W. For budget guns, I like Kel Tec and Taurus. Sigs are well made beautiful guns too.

The first gun I ever shot was a Glock and from then on, I just did not get the hype. The only thing I like about them is that different models of the same caliber can share mags, and they have a lot of aftermarket junk to add to the gun... Other than that, I just don't get the petal stool that they're placed on at all. Another thing that turned me off from them is the pompous attitudes that some Glock owners fanboys have. I don't think that most Glock owners hate on S&W specifically, I think SOME hate on any gun that is not 100% just like Glock. That's just my opinion and personal observation of SOME Glock owners on the web (yahoo answers, YouTube, other forums)

Last edited by Praxidike; July 15, 2014 at 11:50 PM. Reason: darn cellphone autocomplete
Praxidike is offline  
Old July 15, 2014, 11:56 PM   #28
peacebutready
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 20, 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
And I have personal experience with what seems to be an endemic reliability problem with some models, especially the Pro.

I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.
peacebutready is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 12:00 AM   #29
tarosean
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 3,583
The only guns I've truly "hated" were ones that didn't work.
Had an M&P45c that I never clicked with even though it always worked flawlessly. Course that's not saying much as there have been a great number of guns I didn't click with...
tarosean is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 12:10 AM   #30
gc70
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,788
Sam1911 encapsulated how most owners of other pistols react to the M&P.

Quote:
Most of them have something between grudging respect, equitable affection, or even wistful admiration (only tempered by distrust) of the M&P. Almost all will admit it is a great-shooting gun.
However, there are a tiny number of gun owners who seem to feel threatened that other models of guns may be as good as -or better than- their favorite guns and they react to their fear with anger. It is certainly not unheard of for those few to having biting things to say about other guns.
gc70 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:40 AM   #31
bds
Contributing Member
 
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Posts: 9,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal28
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks.

... refering to the hate it gets from the owners of glocks and sig.
I am a fan of Glocks/Sigs and do not hate M&P.

I have shot G17/G19/G26/G21/G30 and currently shoot G22/G23/G27 and M&P40/45.

For me, everything that I dislike about the Glock such as bulky grip, grip angle, mag/slide release and other ergonomics, they are fixed on the M&P. With the small grip insert, even my wife with her smaller hands can easily reach all the controls and readily reach the mag release on M&P40/45 but she must shift her grip on the Glocks to release the magazine.

Perhaps M&P having fixed all the issues are agitating the Glock owners everytime they shoot their Glocks?

Now, if S&W could finally do something about the M&P trigger ... thankfully it is easy to do a trigger job on them with a diamond file from Harbor Freight - http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm
__________________
"I only do what the voices in my wife’s head tell her to tell me to do"

Do something meaningful and fun ... today:
Support vendors offering 5% THR discount - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760272
Support THR by becoming a contributing member - http://www.thehighroad.org/payments.php
Support Pay it Forward thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=698208

Revelation 19:11
bds is online now  
Old July 16, 2014, 02:05 AM   #32
benzy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 24, 2008
Posts: 2,317
My goal is to own one of them all, that way any opinions on a specific gun aren't because I only shoot brand XYZ. Seems the people that knock it either had issues or are out to justify to themselves that they made the right choice. I shoot my M&P as well or better than nearly any other gun I own. Don't know why, but I'm not mad it shoots well for me. I haven't had any issues that I can remember, be it the guns fault, mags fault or of my own causing. Even the cheapo pro-mags have run perfectly.

They aren't perfect but in the sub $600 range I can't think of a pistol I wouldn't expect to spend either time/effort or money on to get the most out of it. Glock sites are referred to as dovetail protectors. The XD trigger could use work. They all are a budget driven mass produced gun. It isn't going to be perfect but it will be pretty serviceable.
benzy2 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 02:08 AM   #33
Bobson
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Location: Snohomish County, Washington
Posts: 2,979
This thread reminds of the video by Jerry Miculek, where he has a trigger scale and weighs the trigger pulls of a few popular polymer handguns (a Glock, an XD, of course an M&P, and IIRC one other, but I don't remember what it was). He "surprisingly" finds that the M&P has the lightest trigger. As I watched that video, and as I read this thread, an incident comes to memory...

I have a family member who works for a state law enforcement agency (not Massachusetts). After he graduated from his academy in early 2013, we went and stayed at his house for a short time. While there, I asked if I could check out his duty gun, which he unloaded and handed to me. I verified empty, racked the slide, did the obligatory aim at a spot on the wall, and began the trigger press. Then I pressed. And pressed. And wondered, oh sh--, did I break thi-

*Click*

"Whaaaaaaaat? What's with this trigger, bro?" *Re-rack, re-squeeze* "Man that's heavy."

Then I pull out my stock gen3 G19, unload and verify safe, and dry fire it. I know Glock advertises a 5.5 lb trigger. If that's true, my brother's M&P has to be at least a good 8 or 9 lbs; certainly heavier than any Glock or XD trigger I've ever handled (and I've owned both).

So IDK what Jerry Miculek was testing. I mean, the guy works for Smith. I knew going in that he wasn't going to find Springfield's product to have the best trigger, if you catch my drift.

I don't hate the M&P line. I think it's aesthetically gorgeous. I think the grip is phenomenally comfortable. I love the grip texturing and the grooves on the rear of the slide. I hate the hinge in the trigger. And the only M&P I ever dry fired had a ridiculously heavy trigger. I don't hate the gun, not by a long shot. But if all M&P triggers are like that, I don't want anything to do with the product line.
__________________
More Christians have been executed by persecutors in the 20th century than the sum total of all those who were similarly persecuted in every past century, combined.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15
Bobson is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 02:30 AM   #34
benzy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 24, 2008
Posts: 2,317
Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.
benzy2 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 02:33 AM   #35
Old Dog
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 11, 2004
Location: somewhere on Puget Sound
Posts: 3,452
Quote:
But if all M&P triggers are like that,
They're not.

Anywhoo, not to jump on the bandwagon, but I've not seen much hate on the M&P. Thread a while back when one agency got upset because their trainees couldn't figure out how to properly seat the magazines and the mags were dropping out while on the firing line ... agency subsequently went back (temporarily) to their previous issue pistol ...

My department uses M&Ps. I hated them at first (being an iconoclast who muchly prefers a hammer-fired pistol), however, my opinion has evolved some -- I now have a lot of respect for the M&Ps as the pistol has demonstrated really good reliability, acceptable accuracy and been pretty good for beginners to learn.

Now, ah, the trigger ... yes, it can be improved greatly with the Apex mods. My issue has always been the slight mushiness on many specimens and a somewhat indistinct reset after the pistol has been shot a while. All things considered though, the superior ergonomics of the M&Ps, combined with the reliability and the decent accuracy, render it a pretty good service pistol. For sure, production M&Ps have way better sights than stock Glocks ...
__________________
Will
Old Dog is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 02:34 AM   #36
9mmforMe
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 6, 2010
Location: IN
Posts: 924
"Smith & Wesson, being based in Massachusetts, has let politicians guide their manufacturing and design. For example, they put 12-16 pound triggers on their M&P pistols.

This kind of engineering was prompted by politicians, not gun designers. This breaks a fundamental rule of gun safety which says never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it because a 12 pound trigger, even even the most expert hands, will cause the muzzle to move off target when firing.

This "safety" feature actually makes the gun more dangerous and requires the owner to get a trigger job done on it. "


This is absolute bunk! If a 12 pound trigger causes you to move the muzzle in a manner that takes it off the target then you need to work on your trigger control. Oh, and please inform the DA revolver owners they have "more dangerous" weapons...wait, they might like that!

The M&Ps have not been dissed in any concerted way as far as I know. I don't own one but have shot them and they seem like well made reliable pistols as far as I can discern.
__________________
"It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have." -William Munny, Unforgiven
9mmforMe is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 03:21 AM   #37
Bobson
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Location: Snohomish County, Washington
Posts: 2,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy2 View Post
Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.
I could have dry fired it 10, 20, or 50 times, and it would have felt progressively heavier, not better. If a $40 part makes such a world of difference, one should quickly ask why Smith didn't do it that way to begin with.

I prefer to buy products I like right off the shelf, rather than buy things and have to invest more to bring it up to standard. Even if the monetary cost of the upgrade is marginal, it's the principle of the thing. So, in the event that I can't find a perfect pistol, it becomes a matter of weighing the pros and cons of each.

At the time I bought my Glock, it came out on top of the others, for me. So far, I've not come up with sufficient reason to pursue a replacement; the M&P's sexy slide serrations and comfortable grip notwithstanding. I shoot the G19 really well, it carries very well for me, I'm pleased with it's capacity, and I love everything about it's trigger. The M&P might be better in many ways, I readily concede; but it can't be enough of an improvement (based on how I feel about the G19) to justify the expense of the change.
__________________
More Christians have been executed by persecutors in the 20th century than the sum total of all those who were similarly persecuted in every past century, combined.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15

Last edited by Bobson; July 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM.
Bobson is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 04:57 AM   #38
RustyShackelford
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 27, 2006
Posts: 2,442
Carry & duty pistols....

I've owned & toted a few semi auto pistols(M9, 96D, PX4 C/constant action, M&P, Glock gen 04). In short, for duty or serious defense use, you need to replace the sights on nearly any semi auto pistol you carry.
I like Trijicon 3 dot night sights. The steel design is robust & can hold up well. Wayne Novak's style lends itself to CCW/plainclothes carry. He understands the need for pistol sights that don't snag or are sharp. Smith & Wesson has used Novak styles since the 1980s with great results.
As for triggers. I shot about 240 rounds of .45acp in my Glock 21. The police trade in trigger was decent & I wouldn't feel the need to convert it to NY-01.
My M&P .45acp Compact shot fine too. I wouldn't feel unsafe with it on duty or as a CCed pistol. Could custom action work or Apex Tactical parts help? Sure, but on those M&Ps it's not critical.

FWIW, I've heard a few PPQ shooters & gun press writers like Massad Ayoob rave about the trigger pull on the pistols. I'd buy a long-slide PPQ .40 if I could.
__________________
If you don't practice, you don't deserve to win.

Andre Agassi
RustyShackelford is online now  
Old July 16, 2014, 06:26 AM   #39
jjones45
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 21, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 297
I like my m&p9 and would probably love it once finally get an apex trigger kit installed. People will always find something to complain about, it's in our nature.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (28.9 KB, 27 views)
jjones45 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 06:58 AM   #40
HexHead
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Location: TN
Posts: 2,218
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ View Post
Ummm...Massachusetts (as people mention here). 940 CMR 16.00 which make it a "deceptive practice" if certain features aren't included:

"...such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun."
Quote:
such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to:
That 10 lb trigger was an option given, not a requirement.
__________________
"If it's a miracle Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry, point 4-5 caliber miracle." (Chard)

"And a bayonet Sir! With some guts behind it!" (CS Bourne)
HexHead is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 08:37 AM   #41
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 28,314
Quote:
I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.
I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
Sam1911 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 12:50 PM   #42
tipoc
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Posts: 2,265
Quote:
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks
What hate? Where have you seen this?

Also some companies pay people to go on websites and ask questions like this one. It quickly gets a rumor going on "social media" that people "hate on" M&Ps. But I've seen no particular hate.

Well, OK maybe from fellas like Fire In Cairo who are new to firearms and believe all they read on the internet without trying to verify it. Nope not all M&Ps have 12 pound triggers. If you have one that does you can fix that.

Folks sometimes spread rumors with the intent of drawing traffic to their websites. "Mo hits, mo money!"

Some folk don't care for the M&P but it rarely rises to the level of hate. Really who cares if it does.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; July 16, 2014 at 01:00 PM.
tipoc is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 12:56 PM   #43
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 17, 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,180
Not seen the Hate - shot a couple (actually a bunch) of M&P pistols last Summer. Didn't buy one but I think they are excellent guns. Not for me but they seem to be pretty popular in this neck of the woods.

VooDoo
__________________
Beretta Px4 9mm subcompact, Glock 26 Gen4, Dan Wesson 15-2VH .357 Magnum, Ruger LCR .38 Special +P, Colt 1903 Model M .32ACP, Ruger 3 screw Blackhawk .357 Magnum, Ruger Bearcat .22, S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum, Colt Officers ACP .45, Glock 42
Vodoun da Vinci is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:16 PM   #44
Potatohead
Contributing Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2013
Location: The Rocket City, Alabama
Posts: 4,179
I guess we havent decided if there's actually any hate or not but it sounds like they need to put them out with better triggers. Maybe that's where the hate comes from? That right after you buy a new gun, you have to buy a new trigger group also?
__________________
CANT THINK OF A SNAZZY SIGNATURE LINE
Potatohead is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:24 PM   #45
mgmorden
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Posts: 3,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.
Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.

FWIW, mine has been mostly pretty good. Most of my issues were self caused, and break down to:

1. I went to a lower power recoil spring (13 lbs) that it discovered didn't have the power to always overcome the striker spring and close the action, resulting in "no bang" when the trigger was pulled occasionally. Going back to the stock spring completely fixed that issue, so I can't fault the gun.

2. I've had extraction issues only if I go for a good while (750 rounds or so if shooting lead - about twice that if shooting jacketed) without at least taking a pick to the extractor and scrapping out the crud.

3. Only within the last month or two I've had a few times where empty brass stuck in the chamber and wouldn't come out without using a squib rod to bang it out. I was using bulk used brass though and after I started to case gauge I've found several instances of 9mm Luger cases in that batch that someone cut down to 9mm Makarov length. I've got a hunch that these were causing problems as when I case gauged the lot and removed those all the issues went away.

Certainly no worse than any other pistol I own - issues caused by lack of cleaning, tinkering, and bad reloads, which will stop anything. I keep a round count of what I put through the gun and I just passed 10k rounds this month.

Granted, as I mentioned earlier I think highly of a lot of other guns too. I've owned or shot most of the "major" duty sized pistols on the market right now and the only one that I just don't really like is the Beretta 92, and even that one isn't terrible. As long as you stay away from the absolute cheap junk guns (Lorcin, Jennings, etc) they all pretty much work fine.
__________________
"What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving." - Adrian Rogers
mgmorden is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:30 PM   #46
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 28,314
M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.

The ongoing problems with extraction (sometimes even with aftermarket extractors) and occasional light-strike issues are more of a concern as there exist a noteworthy number of the guns that neither the factory nor the well-known M&P gun plumbers can seem to get running reliably in the long term.

One of my best pals owned and dumped FIVE of them after multiple trips back to the factory for problems that came right back. Wouldn't even sell me one to tinker with.
I've personally, in the flesh, seen four or five folks suffer that problem and ruin a match when their M&P turned into a manually-operated repeater in the middle of a stage, just in the last four years or so (including my club president just this month). If you can't get the gun to RUN, what the trigger feels like is totally irrelevant.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
Sam1911 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:32 PM   #47
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 28,314
Quote:
Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.
Failure to extract is the most common problem. And yes, it sure does take a pistol right out of the match. If you end up "TRB-ing" multiple times in every string, you might as well pack it in and go home. ONE botched stage can take you out of the running. A whole match worth isn't worth the waste of ammo...

Another problem has been with recurring, intermittent light strikes, which polishing the striker and replacing springs sometimes fixes. Not that that's much consolation when you're doing malfunction drills in the middle of a big match you spent hundreds of dollars to attend.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
Sam1911 is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:36 PM   #48
Potatohead
Contributing Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2013
Location: The Rocket City, Alabama
Posts: 4,179
Quote:
M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.
makes sense.
__________________
CANT THINK OF A SNAZZY SIGNATURE LINE
Potatohead is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:37 PM   #49
vba
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 129
I like my M&P9c just fine. Had some problems with it at first with light primer strikes but subsequently traced it to my reloads. The primers I was using were old and had been in my basement for some years (thought they were newer).

Anyway, I like the gun very much and would recommend it highly. It is my main summer carry gun. I've no problem with the stock trigger.
vba is offline  
Old July 16, 2014, 01:58 PM   #50
Hangingrock
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 10, 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,319
I have a rather limited sample of (2). Both have been trouble free.

One of the two was a Mass compliant model. I have a preference for the magazine disconnect feature which others do not have. The trigger press was corrected with a Apex Duty/Carry kit. With the difference the Apex Duty/Carry kit made I had the kit installed on my other MP. On both pistols the OEM sights were changed out to 10-8 sights with a front night sight and plain rear sight.

With either one I've experienced no extraction/ejection or insufficient strike discharge problems. But like I said previously I have a limited sample of two.

Either way both are tools. If the tool is problematic simply quit using it and find another tool that works.
__________________
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
Hangingrock is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.