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Old July 17, 2014, 01:21 PM   #76
9mmepiphany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaddeus Jones View Post
The only place I've ever even seen such a statement was in this thread.
As I said, I thought it was common knowledge, obviously not as common as I thought.

Quote:
In all my years of training I've only ever been taught that a good trigger and control of same is fundamental to accuracy.
Trigger control is fundamental to accuracy. Smooth trigger travel makes that control easier, but certainly isn't a determinate of accuracy

Quote:
I was never told it was a "myth".
I wouldn't know who to blame for not telling you, you'll have to figure it out for yourself

Quote:
Evidently Apex Tactical, who is profiting greatly from the m&p's lousy factory trigger is unaware of this "myth" as well.

Otherwise why would they waste their time and money coming up with a better trigger? Someone should tell them.
I've had that discussion with them, we're personal friends, and they do it for the same reason that Ed Brown offers a full length recoil spring guide...because there is a customer demand for it. Some people would much rather spend money than put in work, plus a large portion of the M&P market will be happy with the stock trigger. If they could capture even half the M&P market, they'd be rolling in money...they're not

I'm the last one to poo-poo the advantages of the Apex Tactical FSS action kit on my M&P, but I don't deny that it is a crutch for my lack of dedication to practice.

I've also had the trigger of every S&W revolver I own tuned as well as action work on all my pistols. I freely admit to being a trigger snob, but it doesn't make it any less of a crutch
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Old July 17, 2014, 02:30 PM   #77
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Well, as per usual in these types of threads, the brand-bashing is perpetuated by one repeat poster ... in this case, one who doesn't seem to have much recent experience with a good sample size of the platform being discussed, and one who finally admits that he doesn't like polymer-framed striker fired pistols.

"Lousy triggers?" My sample size for this pistol runs in the hundreds, not one or two or three ... Some of the triggers are better than others, but as noted, Apex provides a superb upgrade. Accuracy? Some M&Ps are quite accurate, most are average, a few are mediocre at best. The M&P gamut probably runs about the same spread as every other production plastic pistol.

One moderator notes that in his local IDPA matches, he's seen some repeated issues with M&Ps. One might wonder about the operators' maintenance habits, as I've seen large numbers of these pistols go through very high round count training with nary a hitch. This may be due to the fact that our armorers go through the S&W factory armorer school and are pretty attuned to detecting and rectifying issues with problem guns ... and all our people are trained to shoot one gun pretty much all the same way (we still see individuals who have some bad habits that occasionally induce the same malfunctions). I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid

Good cleaning and maintenance, using good quality ammunition, good shooting mechanics, and the platform is as reliable as any other out there, IMO.
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Old July 17, 2014, 03:56 PM   #78
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Quote:
One moderator notes that in his local IDPA matches, he's seen some repeated issues with M&Ps. One might wonder about the operators' maintenance habits, as I've seen large numbers of these pistols go through very high round count training with nary a hitch. This may be due to the fact that our armorers go through the S&W factory armorer school and are pretty attuned to detecting and rectifying issues with problem guns ... and all our people are trained to shoot one gun pretty much all the same way (we still see individuals who have some bad habits that occasionally induce the same malfunctions). I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid

Good cleaning and maintenance, using good quality ammunition, good shooting mechanics, and the platform is as reliable as any other out there, IMO.
Of the folks I've known with these problems, three are Master ranked shooters, others at least Sharpshooter class. My circle of shooters includes one of the most well known M&P gun "plumbers" (mentioned in this thread, in fact) and yet these problems sometimes persist.

To be fair, most of these shooters would consider "several thousand rounds" only a month or two's amount of shooting, and I don't have a way to know the average round count on any of their guns. Still, even a couple years' worth (say 25,000-30,000rds?) shouldn't be causing them these problems.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:01 PM   #79
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"A really good trigger is merely a crutch."

I can't believe that is a serious statement made by a moderator on a gunboard.
Ahhh, expand your mind!

Actually, just listen to what 9mmepiphany said. He hit the nail right on the head. Anyone who says they "need" a great trigger and can't shoot a box-stock Glock or M&P (or Smith J-frame for that matter) well is admitting far more about themselves than they are about the gun.

It isn't as easy to shoot precisely with a less-than-glass-rod-perfect trigger. But there is nothing at all in that less than perfect trigger causing the gun not to be accurate. It's all in your focus and ability to control that trigger. If your skills are "there" it shouldn't matter what the trigger feels like.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:18 PM   #80
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Quote:
To be fair, most of these shooters would consider "several thousand rounds" only a month or two's amount of shooting
This would be about right for my M&P Pro 9mm which has never given me any extraction/ejection issues.

I was mentioning the 9mm conversions because they *should* be more sensitive to extractor/ejector issues because of the extra 1mm slop in the breech face. I don't shoot the 40c much, but when I do its usually with the 9mm barrel. The 40 conversion I haven't used since I got the 9mm Pro, but I liked it so much I jumped on a Pro when I found one at a good price.

OTOH I've not messed with the recoil spring or trigger, only added the extra power striker spring to get reliable ignition with my reloads (mostly Tula primers these days, might not be needed with others, but I didn't notice any trigger degradation from the change).
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:47 PM   #81
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As far as reliability, I've seen a number of them fail (extractors & firing pins) in competition - but these are guns that're used hard. I just chucked the stock extractor and replaced it with a bomb-proof Apex extractor, and no issues to date. Still have the original FP, but I'll get an extra if I continue to use it in competition.

As to the trigger - I'm a revolver shooter, so while others moaned and groaned about the trigger, it felt fine to me. Nonetheless, eventually, I tuned the trigger myself. I'm sure installation of Apex trigger parts is quicker and yields an excellent trigger, but it's tough to beat free, especially when the result is more than satisfactory.

Good trigger is necessary for accuracy? It sure helps one shoot optimally. I made an assertion on an earlier thread that a good handgunner ought to be able to consistently print 3" groups at 25 yards, to which a GM-level shooter I know chimed in thinking I ought to relax that standard for polymer striker-fired guns. My M&P40 was brand new to me at the time, but I took his challenge, and the next day, with an entirely stock M&P40, shot 3 back-to-back sub-3" groups at 25 yards with it. I do better with my smooth revolvers, but this M&P, with it's factory trigger, was up to the task.



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Old July 17, 2014, 04:49 PM   #82
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FWIW, our state Highway Patrol went from Glock 22s to the M&P for reasons of ergonomics. They have had so many issues with parts and reliability that they are contemplating going back to Glock. That's a pretty good sample size of folks who depend on firearms to get them home at night if things go gunny sack.

As far as good triggers being a crutch, a good trigger doesn't necessarily mean light, but it has to be consistent, predictable, and up to the task. Frankly, I doubt there would be much difference in my scores in Production Division using a stock M&P vs. a worked over M&P trigger. Put a crunchy, inconsistent, 14 lb (think NY trigger) in an Open Division blaster and see how that works out for you.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:57 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wally
I was mentioning the 9mm conversions because they *should* be more sensitive to extractor/ejector issues because of the extra 1mm slop in the breech face.
That's part of the original problem, there isn't an extra 1mm...it is always there as S&W decided to use the .40 extractor on the 9mm models
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Old July 17, 2014, 05:52 PM   #84
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Our local city PD had been using the same 5906's for close to 20 years and needed a replacement. The chief really wanted to stay with S&W and hated Glocks. They started evaluating different guns about 4 years ago. The M&P was their 1st choice, but they had numerous reliability issues. Multiple guns were sent back. They finally gave up and explored staying with 5906's. S&W no longer catalogs them, but at least at that time would have made a run if enough were ordered. The price was just too high. In the end, after 2 years of searching they finally settled on G-17's.

They have been in use for the last 2 years and seem well received.

I tried one of the M&P 45's shortly after they came out. I never had any issues, and actually liked the gun fairly well. I don't hate them and hope S&W can, or has figured out what the problem was. At the end of the day I just liked Glock better and I sold the S&W.
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Old July 17, 2014, 07:23 PM   #85
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I held a CORE again this evening. (along with a 34,35,CZ75, 3 G20s and last but not least a p320.

I love my Shield, I really liked my 9c but it just didn't fit my style of carry. A friend of mine will pick up his pro 9 next week. Once I get a few rounds down it, I'll know better if it's still on the short list. Right now it has the advantage of feel...
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Old July 18, 2014, 01:12 PM   #86
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGG7DfZ5DU
This is the reason for so much M&P hate!
Haha!
Awesome!!!
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Old July 18, 2014, 02:34 PM   #87
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That's pretty funny.

Now we need one about good triggers being just a crutch.

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Old July 18, 2014, 08:02 PM   #88
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Crutch!
LOL!
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Old July 18, 2014, 08:07 PM   #89
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That's part of the original problem, there isn't an extra 1mm...it is always there as S&W decided to use the .40 extractor on the 9mm models
The extra 1mm I'm talking about is on the breech face which would seem to make it easier for the extractor "slip off", but it doesn't seem to happen with my 40 & 40c conversions. So I just don't see why the 9mm M&P would "often" have extractor issues as my Pro 9 certainly doesn't.
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Old July 18, 2014, 10:31 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
Actually, just listen to what 9mmepiphany said. He hit the nail right on the head. Anyone who says they "need" a great trigger and can't shoot a box-stock Glock or M&P (or Smith J-frame for that matter) well is admitting far more about themselves than they are about the gun.

It isn't as easy to shoot precisely with a less-than-glass-rod-perfect trigger.
I say practice with all/most triggers. If I go to the range to shoot semi-auto, most of the time I'll at least put 25 rounds through a J-frame as well.
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Old July 18, 2014, 10:34 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Old Dog View Post
I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid.
Any word on the .40? That's what the M&P was designed around, IIRC.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:19 AM   #92
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Quote:
"It's not a target gun." Yes, thats the excuse most often offered by m&p fans.

That's the excuse most often offered by people that realize they didn't buy a target gun with a target trigger.


None of the manufacturers are putting target grade triggers on non-target guns.



Quote:
I was never told it was a "myth". Evidently Apex Tactical, who is profiting greatly from the m&p's lousy factory trigger is unaware of this "myth" as well.

Otherwise why would they waste their time and money coming up with a better trigger? Someone should tell them.
Because some people like to tinker and try to make what they bought into something else that they think fits their perceived needs better.



Quote:
In all my years of training I've only ever been taught that a good trigger and control of same is fundamental to accuracy.

Oh come on now..... That's like saying that 'high performance tires and control of same is fundamental to good driving'.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:41 AM   #93
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I have two S&w MP series that I bought this year. A 4" bbl for the wife and the Pro for me. I don't know what the trigger pull is, but it feels smooth and easy to us. I sold a Taurus 40 that had a much harder trigger pull, and lousy sights. The only extraction problems I've had was when working up "light" loads. A little more powder, problem dissapears.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:51 PM   #94
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In reguards to the original poster, I must be in the minority as I own 3 of them and like them quite well. I will agree with the triggers as they seem to be all over the board. My first M&P (also my carry gun) is a .40 S&W compact, and I have a full size 9mm, also a full size .40 V-TAC model. The compact has the best trigger out of the box, right at 5.5 pounds, the 9mm has a 6.25 pound pull and the higher priced V-TAC had the worst at 7.5 pounds. I put an Apex full competition trigger kit in it and now all I can say is WOW! It pull is down to 3.9 pounds. Plan on doing this with the 9mm when I can, but not with the compact as I don't want that kind of trigger on a carry gun. LM
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Old July 21, 2014, 05:09 PM   #95
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I'm not quite sure why you find this so unbelievable?

I thought this was a widely well known fact...it has never been a secret; although the denial factor has always been fairly high...it really isn't part of our job description to perpetuate the myth of the Golden Trigger
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It's only a matter of degree.

People may not need a "Gonden Trigger" to get the job done, but the trigger would need to be in certain parameters for one to perform the best.

For some, like me, M&P40 trigger is within that parameters. I don't need a 1911 trigger to shoot well. But, for some it may not be. I can shoot a M642 or 380ACP pistols too, but I have no illusions that I will have the same hit rate as when I am shooting my M&P40.
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Old July 21, 2014, 05:26 PM   #96
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I will just mention my experience here.

I have a bunch of M&P40's and they all work well. Only problem I had was some of them had malfunctions within the first 200 rounds due to initial part tightness.

I cannot recommend M&P9 because ones I've shot were not as accurate as M&P40s.

I require head shot accuracy out to 25m, that means group size must be smaller than a size of a head. M&P40 easily met that. Not so much for M&P9.
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Old July 21, 2014, 06:37 PM   #97
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Hmm ... most of our people have no trouble making head shots out to 25 meters ... or yards. Any who can't are the ones who don't tend to shoot well anyway. Perhaps the targets we use have a bigger head area than the targets you shoot? Most of our folks seem more accurate with the M&P-9 than the 40, too. Probably it's what one is most used to shooting?

In response to a previous poster, no widespread issues known with the M&P-40.
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Old July 21, 2014, 07:28 PM   #98
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Hmm ... most of our people have no trouble making head shots out to 25 meters ... or yards. Any who can't are the ones who don't tend to shoot well anyway. Perhaps the targets we use have a bigger head area than the targets you shoot? Most of our folks seem more accurate with the M&P-9 than the 40, too. Probably it's what one is most used to shooting?

In response to a previous poster, no widespread issues known with the M&P-40.
It cannot be my shooting skill.

M&P40 and M&P9 are dimensionally identical, and I have no problem making that shot with M&P40. Hell, even the firing mechanism uses the exact same parts. I am an M&P armorer.


If anything, if there is nothing wrong with the 9, I should be shooting better with it.

I am not shooting the head size taget at 25m, I am actually shooting it at 35 yards. The standard I want it to meet is 25m, and if it hits at 35 yards, I am assuming it meets that.

Granted, I do belive not all 9mm M&Ps are affected by the issue. However, what makes that a deal braker for me is that the rate is far higher than just a few %. What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.

If you're wondering why this issue is not going away even when S&W was making M&P9 for near 8 years now, there is your answer: S&W REFUSES TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS AS A PROBLEM.

3 inch at 7~10 yards is an unacceptable standard as far as I am concerned.

May be not all M&P9s are affected by it, but the ones I've shot are the first guns that are difinitely not "The gun shoots better than I can."

Last edited by TestPilot; July 21, 2014 at 07:58 PM.
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Old July 21, 2014, 08:23 PM   #99
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I like Sigs and S&Ws, and I don't like Glocks. Like many, though, the only complaint I have about them is their ergonomics. Sig is ultimately the same way - my thumb rests on the slide stop forcing it to be a range only gun, for me. That said, if I do my part, I can shoot either of them very well (for a self-defense pistol). The one time I shot an M&P, it was the same way. None of them have the expertly tuned 1911 trigger I'd love them to have, but they're not really supposed to, either.

Honestly, the responses from some people in this thread seem like they expect the M&P to perform like an 8 inch-barreled Performance Center N-frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911
Failure to extract is the most common problem. And yes, it sure does take a pistol right out of the match. If you end up "TRB-ing" multiple times in every string, you might as well pack it in and go home. ONE botched stage can take you out of the running. A whole match worth isn't worth the waste of ammo...

Another problem has been with recurring, intermittent light strikes, which polishing the striker and replacing springs sometimes fixes. Not that that's much consolation when you're doing malfunction drills in the middle of a big match you spent hundreds of dollars to attend.
Sam, I'm not calling you a liar or disputing your story (or questioning the skill of the shooters of which you're speaking), but these problems seem like something experienced by amateurs or rookies at a match - someone who hasn't run enough rounds through their gun, at a great enough speed, to know its limits. Is this problem that sporadic, or are they taking guns to matches with known problems?
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Old July 21, 2014, 08:52 PM   #100
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Sam, I'm not calling you a liar or disputing your story (or questioning the skill of the shooters of which you're speaking), but these problems seem like something experienced by amateurs or rookies at a match - someone who hasn't run enough rounds through their gun, at a great enough speed, to know its limits. Is this problem that sporadic, or are they taking guns to matches with known problems?
Nicely couched question.

The problems seem to be very sporadic. Running in fits and starts. 2-3K perfect shots, then incessant trouble. Sometimes, as with my club president last month, he'd brought along a spare M&P, knowing the risks, and was able to finish the match. Sometimes it seems to come out of nowhere. And other times, a bit of tinkering seems to chase off the problem, but only for a while. My pal that owned 5, sent the last one back to Smith for repair, got it back, ran about 1,500 through it and it went right back to the same FTE problem. That's when he went back to the Berettas and Glocks for good.

I can't (of course) speak for all the guys I've known who've run into these trouble patches. I do know that "sent it to the factory, got it backed and it worked for a while, now it's broke again" is something I've heard from three different shooters.

The irony is that we shoot with a well known M&P gunsmith and it always boggles my mind that the community of local-ish IDPA/USPSA types still can't find more universal success, with such a great resource so close at hand.
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