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Old July 21, 2014, 09:23 PM   #101
Outlaw Man
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I try. I just didn't want you to think I was piling on with the others.

That is strange, indeed. I wonder if you just happen to shoot with the unluckiest guys in the world or they're just the only ones pushing them hard enough to see problems.

I know there are a lot of classes who use them with great success, but there are probably only a handful of classes that really abuse a pistol like a match will.
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Old July 21, 2014, 09:47 PM   #102
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To be fair, there MUST be 30 that work great for every one I've seen fail (just in my local area I mean) it's just that it has become a bit of "a thing" with the loose group I shoot with.

I tried to buy one of my pal's 5 off of him as a project, wanting an SSP gun and he wouldn't sell (to me). I really did want to try my luck. But this year IDPA moved my xDM into SSP division so there's no need, I guess.
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Old July 21, 2014, 10:07 PM   #103
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In my small circle of friends and gun store slackjaws the M&P has a fine reputation. One of my close friends has been converted from Glock and another said they would be if they weren't already invested in the platform. My box stock M&P9 has a good trigger. It breaks juuuuuust a little too hard with too much over travel to be ideal but not bad. It's the "Military and Police" model after all. Comparing it within my collection the M&P has a lighter trigger and softer break than my XDs. I tend to grade very small guns, snubbies, or sub compacts, on a sliding scale due to their mechanical disadvantage so the direct comparison is unfair IMO but neither come close to being bad. I admit that I felt some variation in the M&P triggers off the shelf so I believe that bad ones could be out there. Luckily I was able to cherry pick the M&P and was delivered a good XDs.

The only new striker fired pistol I owned with a terrible, horrible, no good trigger was the Walther PPS. It completely ruined an otherwise great gun.
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Old July 21, 2014, 10:59 PM   #104
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I have both glock and m&p pistols and like them both. I will say that the stock trigger on the m&p is horrid but can easily be fixed w/ an apex trigger kit. Also you can find glock parts and mods everywhere but m&p can be hard to find at times.
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Old July 22, 2014, 06:34 AM   #105
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I own both M&Ps and Glocks. The M&P has a slightly heavy pull, but could loosen up over time. I know that an Apex sear and a DIY round/polish job on the striker block will bring the pull down to a very smooth 5lb pull. Glockaholics like to state that the M&P trigger is really bad, but then don't talk about how so many Glock owners put in lighter connecters and do all sorts of other work to make them "perfect".

Glock triggers are not exactly light either and feel like a staple gun. My 3rd. Gen G19 has a 5lb pull after putting in a 3.5 "-" Glock connector with no other mods. Seems to me that it's the same pull after an Apex sear in the M&P....huh. My 3rd. Gen G26 has a 4.7lb pull with the "-" connector as well with no other performance mods. I've had people tell me that the "-" connector makes it too light, but it's nonsense. A 5lb pull is perfect on any combat/SD handgun. Lets also not forget that most Glock owners change out the sights simply because they're plastic. I changed mine out for factory metal sights since I like what I call the "ball in a cup" sight picture.

Then we go to the ergonomics of the pistols. Here's what I did to my M&Ps to make them point naturally and not slice my hand with a high, thumbs forward hold. Absolutely nothing since it already rides low in the hand, but it doesn't slice it up if I grip it properly. It feels like whoever designed the grip at S&W knew what the human hand looked like.



Here's my G19 and what I had to do. Beavertail, remove the finger grooves, undercut the trigger guard, knock down some of the grip texture on the front strap, G17 trigger and put a GAP plate on the mags to complete the shorter grip. Grant it a G17 would have a longer grip, but only The Gen 4 with no extra backstrap on points naturally for me and I'm already invested into the G19.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; July 22, 2014 at 02:44 PM.
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Old July 22, 2014, 11:58 AM   #106
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From TestPilot:

Quote:
What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.
Interesting, when and in what context did S&W make this statement?

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Old July 22, 2014, 12:41 PM   #107
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It cannot be my shooting skill.
LOL! Of course not!
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Old July 22, 2014, 01:16 PM   #108
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Quote:
From TestPilot:


Quote:
What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.
No, no S&W does not tell their customers this ...
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Last edited by Old Dog; July 22, 2014 at 01:23 PM.
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Old July 22, 2014, 02:42 PM   #109
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Quote:
From TestPilot:

Quote:
What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.
Two S&W reps told me on the phone that they were supposed to get a 3" group at 25 yards.

I've owned 2 M&P FS9s as well as the 2 FS45s in my previous post. I will say that the FS9s didn't have great accuracy. My original FS9 was sent into S&W because I got an 8" group at 15 yards using 3 different weights and 7 different brands of ammo. After two trips back they finally replaced the barrel which brought it down to a 4" group at 15 yards. People told me over and over it was me getting used to the trigger which is nonsense. My second FS9 was getting a 4" group at 15yards out of the box, but I dumped it as soon as I bought the first FS45.

I can get one ragged hole at 15 yards with the two FS45s in my previous post which have an Apex hard sear and DIY round/polish job on the striker block. Those are the same mods my FS9s had. S&W did have some barrel twist issues with their FS9s which supposedly got worked out by now.
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Old July 22, 2014, 06:28 PM   #110
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Interesting, when and in what context did S&W make this statement?
S&W rep told me that when I tried to send back my M&P9 because it won't group as well as my M&P40.

"If they hang the target at 7(or 10)yard and it groups 3 inches they'll just send it back to you."

That is what he said.

When I e-mailed S&W, they confirmed that is their "out the door testing" standard, but refuesed to acknowledge there is ANY STANDARD as far as what the specification is supposed to be.

This is far after the supposed rifling twist rate fix.
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Old July 22, 2014, 06:42 PM   #111
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Two S&W reps told me on the phone that they were supposed to get a 3" group at 25 yards.
25 feet not 25 yards.

"Dear Customer,
We do not have a published standard our shooters shoot the guns at 25' to a 3" group to allow guns to ship from MFG. to distributors.
If further assistance is required please reply accordingly.
Sincerely,
Michael DiFiore"

I e-mailed them again to confrim he actually meant 25 FEET. And, he acknowledged. He also denied that that is any published design specification.

The first outrageous admission was through phone by a CS rep. Then I opted to communicate through e-mail, becuase the law here makes it illegal to record phone conversations without both parties consenting. Otherwise, you'd be hearing this on Youtube. I would have posted that **** up so every LE who is considering M&P9 would hear it.

3 inch at 25 FEET is an unacceptable standard.

25 feet = Approximately 8m. = 3 inch spread at 8m ([M870 SHOTGUN WITH FEDERAL FLITE CONTROL PATTERN IS TIGHTER THAN THAT!)

That means 9 inch spread at 24m.

Tell me if that's an acceptable standard to you.

This was in early this year.

Last edited by TestPilot; July 22, 2014 at 07:00 PM.
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Old July 22, 2014, 08:04 PM   #112
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Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks
For the same reason that Ape and Man will never peacefully coexist

"I always think Glock better than M&P. Now, I see how like them they really are."

Testpilot,
They clearly state that's what their shooters are held to; not necessarily the same as a Ransom rest, nor even a very skilled or careful shot. Probably an intern who has to test an entire crate in the span of an hour or so, who can't waste much time on form. Obviously if a casual test shot can't hold even that well, something is bad wrong with the gun, probably a straight-up safety issue that would also keep the gun from even going into battery. Someone else do the geometry numbers to determine exactly how much the barrel needs to shift relative to the sights to cause such a wide variation mechanically, and you'll likely find it is highly improbable for CNC tolerance parts. I've long thought that factory test fires are more a formality for customers than for true QC, since part testing and QC would catch pretty much every function/safety issue but assembly tolerance stack up long before the gun is assembled.

Add up:
-Bullet/bore diameter variance (I guess twist rate/stability effects, too, if there is any question of bullet stability)
-Crown variance (usually the culprit for inaccurate new guns that otherwise work)
-Sight variance and stability
-Barrel/slide variance and play
-Ammunition variance
-Chamber variance (i.e. loose, tight, etc.) --very minor effect compared to the others

There's really only so many things that can go wrong to cause a firearm to be inaccurate. If lockup is consistent (bolt, barrel, slide), the sights aren't moving, and the barrel itself is made well, what else could there possibly be but Voodoo? If the latter, I suggest rubbing the barrel with chicken blood before oiling and storage.

TCB

Last edited by barnbwt; July 22, 2014 at 08:16 PM.
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Old July 22, 2014, 11:34 PM   #113
Nakanokalronin
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Quote:
25 feet not 25 yards.
I know the difference between yards and feet. Two reps told me 25 YARDS. Twenty five yards is not all that great a distance to shoot a pistol. S&W is not the only manufacture to test their pistols at that distance. Many people have gotten targets back with 25 YARD groupings when they send them in for accuracy issues. Now not all manufactures will test their guns at that distance, but if multiple reps tell me it's capable of 3" groups at 25 yards then there's something seriously wrong when it's getting that at 25 feet. That's the reason I sold my FS9s. I have no doubt my FS45s can achieve this since they got the barrel twist right on those models.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; July 22, 2014 at 11:44 PM.
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Old July 23, 2014, 12:14 PM   #114
tipoc
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The first outrageous admission was through phone by a CS rep. Then I opted to communicate through e-mail, becuase the law here makes it illegal to record phone conversations without both parties consenting. Otherwise, you'd be hearing this on Youtube. I would have posted that **** up so every LE who is considering M&P9 would hear it.
There is something amiss here in the reasoning.

First off the M&P has been and is a successful line of pistols for S&W. There have been a good many sold to law enforcement. That trend seems to be growing. These are all well established facts.

Second, most agencies have some type of testing regimen set up before they take a gun into service. Contracts often maintain a period of time to test the guns while in service, return them for repairs or cancel the contract. They just don't spend money on a pig in a poke. There have been reports of the M&P having some problems but in general the picture is one of increased adoption by law enforcement.

Third, the M&P has been widely commented on in gun magazines and on line reviews. None that I have read have said that 8-9" groups are the norm at 25 yards.

So we have a brand of gun that routinely passes the tests of law enforcement organizations for accuracy and reliability, that has been widely reviewed in the gun media, and that many shooters have bought and appreciated, all of whom state that it is on a par with other guns of it's type in terms of accuracy from a bench at 25 yards. On the other hand we have one phone conversation and an email.

What's more likely, that there was some mis-communication between TestPilot and the single CS rep or that thousands of others, including law enforcement agencies, mistook the 3" groups they measured at at 25 feet for 3" groups at 25 yards?

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Old July 23, 2014, 01:17 PM   #115
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Well, as I have previously stated ... my sample size is in the hundreds, yet for some mysterious reasons, I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.

Perhaps all the "good" M&Ps are shipped out to law enforcement agencies on the West coast and the factory seconds go everywhere else?
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Old July 23, 2014, 01:54 PM   #116
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Well, as I have previously stated ... my sample size is in the hundreds, yet for some mysterious reasons, I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.
You personally shot all hundreds of thos pistols and grouped it at 25m?

Or, are you just saying you assume there is no problem because a bunch of shooters you know who may or may not shoot well enough to know the difference did not complain?
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Old July 23, 2014, 03:22 PM   #117
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Read the post a bit more carefully, and you'd have noticed
Quote:
I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.
And yes, yes I have shot many of these pistols myself, alongside our other instructors, armorers, as well as witnessing the performance of the pistols at competitions, instructor academies, initial qualifications, regular qualifications, line officer training, tactical team training ...

As far as your claim about what a S&W rep told you, perhaps we get the real reps when we deal with the factory ... They don't b.s. us, and the company is well aware of any problems that are reported by departments and agencies with which it's contracted ...

Finally, a disclaimer: I have no particular loyalty toward the M&P. All things considered, I'd much prefer to be allowed to carry a SIG P-series pistol, a 1911 or even a Beretta M-9 or CZ-75 ... However, the M&P has exceeded my expectations and proved to be a worthy service pistol, though still not one of my top choices.
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Last edited by Old Dog; July 23, 2014 at 03:33 PM.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:56 PM   #118
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Quote:
And yes, yes I have shot many of these pistols myself, alongside our other instructors, armorers, as well as witnessing the performance of the pistols at competitions, instructor academies, initial qualifications, regular qualifications, line officer training, tactical team training ...
DID YOU, OR DID YOU NOT, personally shoot hundreds of M&P9, and specifically M&P9, GROUP TESTING all of them at 25m or beyond?

It's a simple "yes," or "no" question.

Answer clearly.

Do not give me this blurry story about "Me, along with others I've seen..." engaged in shooting traning that does not necessarily involve group testing at 25m or beyond.

If I were to judge an issue by my observation of how others shoot, Gen 3 40S&W Glocks should not have a feeding problem with lights either, since I've saw over a hundred Gen 3 Glock 40S&W shooters not suffering that problem, but it is well known fact that the problem does exist. So, "I saw a buch of other shooter with no problems" does not mean much.

Quote:
As far as your claim about what a S&W rep told you, perhaps we get the real reps when we deal with the factory ... They don't b.s. us, and the company is well aware of any problems that are reported by departments and agencies with which it's contracted ...
If there's nothing wrong with the gun, then why does not company feel the need to B.S. the rest of us?

Last edited by TestPilot; July 23, 2014 at 08:42 PM.
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Old July 23, 2014, 08:38 PM   #119
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First off the M&P has been and is a successful line of pistols for S&W. There have been a good many sold to law enforcement. That trend seems to be growing. These are all well established facts.

Second, most agencies have some type of testing regimen set up before they take a gun into service. Contracts often maintain a period of time to test the guns while in service, return them for repairs or cancel the contract. They just don't spend money on a pig in a poke. There have been reports of the M&P having some problems but in general the picture is one of increased adoption by law enforcement.
First, not all samples of M&P9 is affected by the problem. However, it appears to be larger in proportion than a few % lemons. When this was surveyed in M&P forum, out of 31 people, the rate of people who have experienced the problem was about 19%, if I recall correctly. I wish more participated, but I have no control over that.

http://mp-pistol.com/polls/38249-you...y-problem.html

There have been plenty of cases where an LE agency noticing problems after adopting a pistol they supposedly throughly tested.

Quote:
Third, the M&P has been widely commented on in gun magazines and on line reviews. None that I have read have said that 8-9" groups are the norm at 25 yards.
I did not say they are the norm.

Gen 3 40S&W malfunctioning with the light isn't the "norm" either, but it is a well known fact that the problem does exist.

Kahr I bought was an utter crap, but all magazine reviews I've seen were raving about it.


Another thing that you must know is that this is not a very noticable issue unless it is specifically tested.

I can grab those M&P9 I have accuracy problems with and pass nearly all law enfocement agency qual process and still out shoot most of the officers. Hell, most of those courses do not even go beyond 17 yards.

Last edited by TestPilot; July 23, 2014 at 08:52 PM.
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Old July 23, 2014, 08:58 PM   #120
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Posted by Potatohead:
LOL! Of course not!
Explain why I have no problems with an M&P40 then. A dimentionally IDENTICAL pistol, with an IDENTICAL trigger.
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Old July 23, 2014, 09:13 PM   #121
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From TestPilot:

Quote:
I did not say they are the norm.
No you said that S&W told you that 3" groups at 25 ft was an acceptable standard. You cited this "statement" by a S&W CS rep as evidence of the poor accuracy of the pistols as a whole and as the opinion of S&W on the subject. You felt so strongly about this that you said you wished you had recorded this and posted it to You Yube so that many people would know the facts about the guns. This clearly implies that you believe it typical of the guns or that S&W has quite low standards.

You also referenced a poll taken at an M&P forum. Of the 31 people who took part in the poll, 6 of them, or under 20% said that they had problems. One said that once they replaced the trigger group for Apex parts the gun was fine and they liked it (someone pointed out that this was not so much a gun problem but an aid for that shooter).

You had nothing to say about the law enforcement agencies that tested and adopted the M&P and have kept them in service. Apparantly they proved more accurate and durable than the one you had.

Finally you got a Kahr that you didn't like but magazine reviews said it was fine. Happens. But for you the whole batch of that type gun are "utter crap". I don't care much for Kahrs, but as a whole they are good guns that work well. Just not so much for me. It's mostly for me the dao trigger.

So it seems you have a beef with the M&P line of handguns as a whole, or at least the 9mms. Seems unreasonable.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; July 23, 2014 at 09:21 PM.
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Old July 23, 2014, 10:06 PM   #122
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No you said that S&W told you that 3" groups at 25 ft was an acceptable standard. You cited this "statement" by a S&W CS rep as evidence of the poor accuracy of the pistols as a whole and as the opinion of S&W on the subject.
So, "S&W rep told me they have a low standard of pistol testing, and I have experienced accuracy problems" suddenly morphs into "Testpilot said all S&W are inaccurate" in your mind.

Not to mention, that I stated in no uncertain terms that I do not think this problem affects all M&P9 much earlier.

Then you want to lecture about what is unreasonable. What a joke.
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Old July 23, 2014, 10:49 PM   #123
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First, not all samples of M&P9 is affected by the problem. However, it appears to be larger in proportion than a few % lemons. When this was surveyed in M&P forum, out of 31 people, the rate of people who have experienced the problem was about 19%, if I recall correctly. I wish more participated, but I have no control over that.
What is it then Test Pilot that you are saying?

At the M&P forum (why not the S&W forum?, this forum or a few more?) out of 31 people 6 said they had a problem which may or may not have been the same as yours and may have been more a problem of the shooter.

Based on very little evidence (your experience with one gun and maybe 6 people) you have concluded that a high percentage of M&P 9mm shooters are having serious problems with guns shooting 9" groups, or so, at 25 yards. Or at least you have no shame in implying that.

So spell it out please...exactly what is your point?

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Old July 24, 2014, 01:36 AM   #124
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I have an M&P 5" Pro 9. I was very excited to get it and anxiously awaited its delivery. I've have other S&W centerline handguns and all are good guns. I cut my teeth on DA revolvers and shoot them well. I love a well tuned 1911.

Shooting my Pro I can say this. It shoots fast and tracks well. This M&P is totally reliable. Nice platform. And it is marketed as a competitive sports pistol. And S&W dropped the ball on this one. My old P-85 Ruger shoots rings around this pistol. This M&P is not competitive.

The trigger was long, heavy and nowhere close to that of a decent revolver, weight was around 12 pounds, yes I measured it. Absurdly heavy and creepy. It shoots way low, 5.5" at 25 yards. Its intrinsic accuracy is nonexistent - on a good day it throws 6" groups with decent factory ball ammo. Fellow competitors voiced the same concerns.

Factory support for the abnormally low POA/POI regulation was nowhere near what it was when I had my DX revolver warranteed. I will not shoot a match with it when decent predictable precision is required, which is all the ones I shoot in. I'll use a good 1911. As a matter of fact, this pistol is the reason I resumed building a 9mm 1911.

The trigger weight is now down to about 5 pounds and smooth. Further smithing will reduce the overtravel. I've closed the groups up a little clearing out the recoil spring guide seat area of the frame, addressing the barrel crown, spring balance and working on extending the barrel lockup. Correcting the POI required a call to those familiar with the sight system used since there are no FO front sights to correct it. I purchased a black post (to shorten) to correct the impact. Said company stated it was a gun issue and to send it back. I told them I contacted Smith and got zero cooperation. The company did state a bunch of those guns were shooting low and exhibited erratic accuracy.

I did mosey on over to the Smith & Wesson website early on thinking maybe I was missing something. I lurked and read all about this pistol. I learned they were very accurate, the targets used were silhouettes as far as 10 yards out. HUH??? WT#@<%?!

To clarify, I am not a hater. Also I don't look through jaded glasses nor drink coolade (appropriate spelling). I like the pistol but am as frustrated by a company with such firearm integrity to turn out a good platform with incomplete execution as I am with the unnecessary shortcomings of the pistol. I like it, I'll get it right and enjoy it.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:32 AM   #125
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"TestPilot" posts
Quote:
DID YOU, OR DID YOU NOT, personally shoot hundreds of M&P9, and specifically M&P9, GROUP TESTING all of them at 25m or beyond?

It's a simple "yes," or "no" question.

Answer clearly.
Wow. This is a pretty good example of why it's often so difficult to engage in rational discourse on the internet.

I've provided, or attempted to provide, a bit of sanity in a thread containing no small amount of bias. Now, I know that I have probably a bit more experience than most casual shooters of M&P pistols (and probably most owners of M&P pistols. I certainly (as I noted previously) have no real loyalty toward the M&P -- so when I see people such as "TestPilot" putting forth a really bizarre thesis statement (M&P-9s are horrifically inaccurate and the factory says so to the consumer) and then expending a metric butt-ton (he likes meters instead of our commonly accepted form of measurement, the yard) of energy attempting to discount other posters' experiences and advance his own agenda ... well, ya just gotta wonder.
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