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Old July 24, 2014, 02:43 AM   #126
tipoc
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If some of us go over here we can see a more through examination of the M&P 9mm guns. Which in some variations do seem to have had some teething problems in their development...or more than teething problems.

Seems there is a history to problems with the M&P 9mm guns. S&W has changed rates of twists in the barrels twice to improve it as well as the external design of the barrels themselves to make for a better more consistent fit.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...P9-barrel-saga

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Last edited by tipoc; July 24, 2014 at 03:37 AM.
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Old July 24, 2014, 03:05 AM   #127
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Hilton Yam's opinions on the accuracy can be found here...

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1272

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Old July 24, 2014, 03:18 AM   #128
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About 11 mins into this video Jerry Michulik discuss changes in the barrels, rate of twist and changes in the barrel hood shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcR2a...vtJkn2ENTC5WWC

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Old July 24, 2014, 09:18 AM   #129
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Mikulek is fast for sure, love watching him shoot. I bought his advanced revolver video way back, spectacular.

Jerry did mention Smith doing their homework on the new revision barrel - which means it wasn't done on the originals. So for the performance I paid for originally I need to spend another $200 on a barrel. For equivalent trigger quality over stock condition I have to throw down another $150. Thanks but no thanks, Smith should correct it for free. If I didn't like the platform and way it tracked when shooting I would just dump the pig.

I will say I have noticed the 45 and 40 caliber M&P owners are pleased with their pistols' performance. But I wouldn't recommend a 9mm M&P.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:18 AM   #130
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Perhaps you m&p experts can answer a question for me, being I've learned so much from this thread already.

If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:26 AM   #131
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Wow. This is a pretty good example of why it's often so difficult to engage in rational discourse on the internet.

I've provided, or attempted to provide, a bit of sanity in a thread containing no small amount of bias. Now, I know that I have probably a bit more experience than most casual shooters of M&P pistols (and probably most owners of M&P pistols. I certainly (as I noted previously) have no real loyalty toward the M&P -- so when I see people such as "TestPilot" putting forth a really bizarre thesis statement (M&P-9s are horrifically inaccurate and the factory says so to the consumer) and then expending a metric butt-ton (he likes meters instead of our commonly accepted form of measurement, the yard) of energy attempting to discount other posters' experiences and advance his own agenda ... well, ya just gotta wonder.
Notice that he still does not answer the question.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:31 AM   #132
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Perhaps you m&p experts can answer a question for me, being I've learned so much from this thread already.

If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.
I do not think they're "so great" for everyone. I adopted M&P40 because it suits my needs the best.

Each agencies have their own reasons.

Why do some agencies adopt M&P after those agencies you mentioned dumped them?

LAPD dumped Glock for M&P. Does that mean Glock is worse than M&P? I think not.

M&P is not the only pistol that got dumped after short period of time with some agencies. There are lot of politics and B.S. bias involved in weapon selection of government agencies. Some department get a bad batch. There are numerous reasons.

Also, note that some of those agencies you mentioned involved 357SIG. M&P was engineered based on 40S&W. S&W did a good job of that. One problem is that S&W decided to go cheap after that, and instead of giving different caliber versions proper attention, they just try to get away with minimum slight modification as possible to make the two other caliber versions. Similar reason to how Glock wrecked the 9mm gen4 when they tried to use the new 40S&W gen4 recoil springs as a common part. Glock now has separate spring for 9mm.

Last edited by TestPilot; July 24, 2014 at 10:46 AM.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:43 AM   #133
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"Casual" shooters who compete regularly and are proficient sort out what works from what doesn't. When many of those "casual" shooter competitors know others with similar complaints it seems there are real issues. When fellow competitors notice shooting skill and after a string of fire ask what gun you are shooting and describe the same shortcomings it isn't mindless bias. The nature and performance of the M&P is why I leave it home when I need a pistol that performs to the necessary standard.

Now if we're just shooting large watermelons at 5 yards...
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:01 PM   #134
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LAPD has not "dumped Glock". In fact they continue to issue Glock 17's to new recruits in the academy.

The Glock 21, Glock 17, Glock 30, Glock 26, Glock 30S, Glock 22, Glock 27 and Glock 19 are all on LAPD's approved list.

The m&p is not. In any caliber.
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Old July 24, 2014, 01:48 PM   #135
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Well, Thaddeus Jones, I don't think anyone here is saying "M&Ps are so great." And while at least one of the agencies you mentioned "suspended" the issue of the M&P, contrary to internet opinion, agencies aren't "dumping" the M&P in droves. In fact, I'd speculate that for every department that may quietly start re-issuing another pistol, ten or twenty more are transitioning to the M&P.

Any handgun adopted by any law enforcement entity in today's political climate is probably going to be a total compromise (that said, I cannot explain the Indiana State Police adoption of the SIG P227). Any pistol manufactured for mass issue is certainly going to have its share of lemons squeak through the factory doors.

My department transitioned because we got M&Ps for free. S&W isn't the only manufacturer that's done this. That's how Glocks ended up in so many police holsters.

Oh, and "TestPilot?"
Quote:
Notice that he still does not answer the question.
If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd wouldn't have had to make your rude demand. For the record, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've shot over a hundred of our pistols (thus making my sample size substantially greater than yours anyway), but more to the point -- I don't NEED to shoot every single specimen myself; we have quite a few other instructors and armorers whose judgment and experience I trust, aside from the fact that I have personally witnessed most of our firearms being shot. And no, we don't shoot to 25 METERS, we use YARDS in my country. Do we shoot three or five shot strings to try and get tiny little groups? Not usually, but if you knew anything about handguns, you'd know there are other methods to judge accuracy.

Again, I have no dog in this fight; I'm simply a minion of the government who has some experience with this particular pistol -- and I suspect that most here have only internet opinion as a basis for their judgment of the M&P. And, as I said before, if I was in charge, the M&P wouldn't even be in my Top 5 for a service pistol. However, I have concluded that the M&P is a decent service pistol, not overwhelmingly great or the best at any particular thing, but reliable enough, and accurate enough, to be capable of saving one's butt or someone else's butt.
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Last edited by Old Dog; July 24, 2014 at 02:01 PM.
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Old July 24, 2014, 01:54 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaddeus Jones
If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS?
Texas DPS hasn't dumped the M&P. They delayed it's entry into service from the A14 academy to the B14 academy.

The decision probably had a lot more to do with a lot of very angry troopers downgrading from .357sig to 9mm than it did with the 10 microns of movement.
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Old July 24, 2014, 03:32 PM   #137
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If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd wouldn't have had to make your rude demand. For the record, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've shot over a hundred of our pistols (thus making my sample size substantially greater than yours anyway), but more to the point -- I don't NEED to shoot every single specimen myself; we have quite a few other instructors and armorers whose judgment and experience I trust, aside from the fact that I have personally witnessed most of our firearms being shot. And no, we don't shoot to 25 METERS, we use YARDS in my country.
So, U.S. Army is not a part of U.S. according to you I guess. And, you're in love witn an inferior system. I get it.

Quote:
... Do we shoot three or five shot strings to try and get tiny little groups? Not usually, but if you knew anything about handguns, you'd know there are other methods to judge accuracy.
A simple "No, I did not group hundreds of M&P9 at 25m (or yards) or beyond" would suffice.

I do not have a "dog" with people who did not experience accuracy problem.

I DO have a "dog" with people making statements like "my sample size is in the hundreds," to argue that there is no accuracy problems, then refuse to state whether if that hundreds of example consist of grouping at the discussed range, then when asked about exactly what that hundreds of M&P experience consist of, ramble about some vague training, some of which is observation only, that does not even involve the kind of shooting I am talking about.

Last edited by TestPilot; July 24, 2014 at 03:39 PM.
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Old July 24, 2014, 03:40 PM   #138
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LAPD has not "dumped Glock". In fact they continue to issue Glock 17's to new recruits in the academy.
If you have inside connection with LAPD, I suggest you make a call. Glock is still approved, but it is official that new recruits will be getting M&P.
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Old July 24, 2014, 05:42 PM   #139
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Jerry did mention Smith doing their homework on the new revision barrel - which means it wasn't done on the originals
Yes, that's the point. Hilton Yam's site notes that there have been 3 barrels issued, the original and 2 revisions. Jerry shows us two of the versions.

This led to problems with accuracy.

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Old July 24, 2014, 05:48 PM   #140
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From Thaddeus Jones...

Quote:
If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.
I don't know about some of what you mentioned but I do know that the Texas DPS did not "dump" the M&P. It adopted them in 9mm, received the first batch and suspended training with them after problems with a few of the couple of hundred they received needed repair. This procedure is fairly common among law enforcement. The adoption of a new side arm is phased in usually and time provided for training and repair or upgrades. They do not just toss away the old guns and issue the new untested.

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Old July 24, 2014, 10:22 PM   #141
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Hey testpilot i didnt know lapd went with the m&p when did this happen? I thought lasd was the only one goin to the m&p
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Old July 24, 2014, 11:28 PM   #142
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Hey testpilot i didnt know lapd went with the m&p when did this happen? I thought lasd was the only one goin to the m&p
It got on the approved pistol list last year July, according to the date on the list shown to me by an LAPD officer.

Issuance to recruits is to be commenced, according to their last training division guy I talked to. Probably it already happened by now, considering that was last year.

It won't be long before those recruits hit the streets.

Glock is still approved though.
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Old July 25, 2014, 09:11 AM   #143
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from previously posted link
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...P9-barrel-saga

post #6...mention is made of barrel dwell time. I noticed this very early in dealing with my pistol and have been working on it. In a hammer gun the mainspring, hammer face and lower rear slide radius all contribute to how long the barrel stays in battery attitude - i.e. its bore centerline staying in battery angle both horizontally and laterally. The M&P has very little dwell time.

Take an unloaded M&P 9, mag out and close the slide. Get it well anchored, watch the rear of the slide and pull the trigger. You'll notice the slide moves forward. This means at the time of firing the slide/barrel assembly are not in full battery position. The striker spring force is actually countering recoil spring force. So the striker is moving forward. The recoil spring is pushing the slide and barrel forward since the striker spring tension was released. All this movement during lock time. Everything which is a no-no for good accuracy. THEN, the striker hits the primer. Hmmm....

I have working on this from two directions. Striker/recoil spring balance and extending/delaying barrel unlocking (tilt down). The barrel is very hard and files won't touch it. I've acquired a couple stones to work on the target barrel fitting points. I have made some progress and actually shot an almost group yesterday. Fliers are still there but closer to the main group.
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Old July 25, 2014, 11:18 AM   #144
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Does anyone know if texas dps will re issue the m&p this year
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:54 PM   #145
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So, you guys do know that the two or three departments that may or may not have (the evidence is still not forthcoming, mostly anecdotal) stopped issuing the M&P-9 did not do so because of accuracy issues? And that the hundreds of agencies that have adopted the M&P since 2006 seem to have accepted the M&P's accuracy level as adequate for their needs? And really, service pistols are selected because they're presumed to be reasonably reliable, but generally, because it's the best deal the agency can get, budget-wise.

"TestPilot" comments
Quote:
So, U.S. Army is not a part of U.S. according to you I guess.
Well, since the vast majority of commercial, private and law enforcement handgun ranges in this country use the yard as the standard of measurement, I submit it doesn't really matter what I think about the U.S. Army. Given that the discussion was about shooting pistols and not spotting for snipers on overwatch in Ramadi or land nav exercises at Ft. Benning, just give the meter thing a rest, please.

Quote:
And, you're in love witn an inferior system.
How do you get this from what I said?
Which was:

Quote:
if I was in charge, the M&P wouldn't even be in my Top 5 for a service pistol.
Quote:
I have no particular loyalty toward the M&P. All things considered, I'd much prefer to be allowed to carry a SIG P-series pistol, a 1911 or even a Beretta M-9 or CZ-75 ... However, the M&P has exceeded my expectations and proved to be a worthy service pistol, though still not one of my top choices.
"In love?" Hardly.

And while I don't feel the need to deconstruct another member's entire posts, hmm, this:
Quote:
I DO have a "dog" with people making statements like "my sample size is in the hundreds," to argue that there is no accuracy problems, then refuse to state whether if that hundreds of example consist of grouping at the discussed range, then when asked about exactly what that hundreds of M&P experience consist of, ramble about some vague training, some of which is observation only, that does not even involve the kind of shooting I am talking about.
Rather makes me wonder if you ever read for actual comprehension, or just pick and choose little snippets of posts for which to argue ... "Vague training?" Seriously, man ... I have observed or fired this platform for several years, actually monitoring and verifying the performance of this pistol for its intended use. If you cannot, or refuse to accept my comments for what they're worth (about what you paid for them), you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

And for gosh sakes, anyone who buys a handgun simply because their local PD, SO or state police issue it, reconsider, run, far, far away ... Buy something you like that works for you. You're gonna be shooting your pistol a lot more than Trooper Smith or Deputy Jones shoot theirs ...
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Old July 25, 2014, 07:43 PM   #146
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Quote:
Quote:
And, you're in love witn an inferior system.
How do you get this from what I said?
The Imperial Unit, not M&P.

I am sorry for calling it a "system" earlier. That was clearly my error.

1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.
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Old July 26, 2014, 01:20 AM   #147
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Seems like the m&p is starting to become an even bigger player in the le market with those adootions..... i wonder what other agencies have plans of adopting the m&p
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Old July 26, 2014, 02:35 AM   #148
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1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.
Ah, TestPilot, for once I agree with you. I seem to remember that when I was in elementary school, my teachers were telling us that by the time we were of legal drinking age, the U.S. would have abandoned the silly English system of measurement and we'd be fully functioning with the metric system. Boy, that was a long time ago, too ...

Nevertheless, we stubbornly remain wedded to inches, feet, yards and miles ... so we continue to shoot at these distances.

Quote:
Seems like the m&p is starting to become an even bigger player in the le market with those adootions..... i wonder what other agencies have plans of adopting the m&p
Well, the fact that Glock's latest new pistols are geared toward either competitive shooters or the concealed carry market should tell you something.
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Old July 26, 2014, 09:08 AM   #149
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People that hate M&Ps don't know what they are talking about...

They are one of the best handgun designs out there. I think that it is the best design, but that is just one person's opinion. After firing almost every popular make and model of auto loader, I decided to go with two M&Ps. All of the metal is stainless steel with a stainless steel chassis in the polymer frame. The M&P has superb ergonomics, they are durable, reliable, and easy to shoot. I haven't shot in a while, but I shoot these guns better than any other auto loaders. I also shoot glocks pretty well, too. M&Ps also have Great sites. The Low bore axis and beaver tail make these guns very easy to control. The triggers could be better, but that is easy to fix if the trigger bothers you.

People may prefer certain guns, but to say other guns suck because you don't care for them is ignorant. These guns have done really well in pistol trials and are used by many different agencies. Internet chatter is not very reliable. Ignorant people need some sort of forum to feel important. Just because a person is a fan of something doesn't invalidate everything else. I can't say that I've ever shot a gun that I couldn't find something to like about it.
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Old July 26, 2014, 09:37 AM   #150
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I got no hate for s&w other than they won't let us get the old 3rd gen pistols like the 5906s. It's police trade in's and overpriced for shooting safe queens for us shooters.....no factory fresh 5906. Good thing we still can get cz75s and hi powers. Oh well........

Directly on topic. Sure wanted a m&p 357.....whats not to like. not sure if discontinued or what though.
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