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Old July 23, 2014, 12:25 PM   #51
Deltaboy
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Sad to hear this.
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Old July 23, 2014, 03:32 PM   #52
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I've been to county owned ranges in WA State... Watcom County range (Plantation rifle range)... $10 well-invested for each visit. Safe, clean and no nasty folks.

IMHO ... $10 is nothing compared to the cost of ammo these days
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Old July 23, 2014, 05:36 PM   #53
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FromThePlaines:

About strict rules on private ranges; the only time I've every yelled at someone at our private range is when they were bump firing and clearly sending rounds up over the backstop and out of the ballpark.

That don't fly. Too much liability when rounds are escaping the property.
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Old July 23, 2014, 06:35 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ljnowell View Post
I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.
And where do you think they learned those values?
I am sick and tired of posters on this board blaming one group of people for a problem that reaches far and wide covering all age ranges.
It's as moronic as blaming today's violence on video games.

Knock it off!
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:09 PM   #55
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From my own experience...

I live a couple houses down from a WMA parking lot which is at the end of a 6 mile dead end dirt road.. town has no police department (state cops are coming if we make a call) and the ANR (agency of natural resources, vs. dept) has essentially become an absentee landlord... so much so that myself and the neighbors are patrolling the lot and writing down plates.

Orvis and the Ruffed Grouse society, of which I'm not a member put a whole lot of time into habitat improvement and proudly/rightfully hang a sign to show so; if that sign lasts 2 weeks without a dozen bullet holes in it I would be surprised.

I am a member of the NWTF however, and the I hope that the time we put into mentoring young hunters makes a difference towards attitudes regarding public lands. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do.

Edit: As I'm reading this, I can imagine that folks must think I'm a cranky retiree with nothing else to do but watch traffic on my road and piss and moan about it; I'm 42, a small business owner with 3 kids and a wife that is a teacher... meaning I don't have a whole lot of spare time on my hands (who does?) but that's how bad the disregard towards and lack of protection of our public lands have gotten. End of rant.

Last edited by aegagner; July 23, 2014 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Reading my own nonsense
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by aegagner View Post
From my own experience...

I live a couple houses down from a WMA parking lot which is at the end of a 6 mile dead end dirt road.. town has no police department (state cops are coming if we make a call) and the ANR (agency of natural resources, vs. dept) has essentially become an absentee landlord... so much so that myself and the neighbors are patrolling the lot and writing down plates.

Orvis and the Ruffed Grouse society, of which I'm not a member put a whole lot of time into habitat improvement and proudly/rightfully hang a sign to show so; if that sign lasts 2 weeks without a dozen bullet holes in it I would be surprised.

I am a member of the NWTF however, and the I hope that the time we put into mentoring young hunters makes a difference towards attitudes regarding public lands. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do.

Edit: As I'm reading this, I can imagine that folks must think I'm a cranky retiree with nothing else to do but watch traffic on my road and piss and moan about it; I'm 42, a small business owner with 3 kids and a wife that is a teacher... meaning I don't have a whole lot of spare time on my hands (who does?) but that's how bad the disregard towards and lack of protection of our public lands have gotten. End of rant.
Not at all. You sound like a concerned conservationist. Do you get a lot of poaching?
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:37 PM   #57
RustyShackelford
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DV units; security systems...

In 2014, you can now get outdoor/weather proof DV cameras or security systems you can run with a mobile device(IPad, smart phone).
Depending on your property or gun range, you can stage the cameras or use IR/night vision to record the crooks/poachers/trespassers/vandals.
If you can get clear screen grabs or data you can pass it on to the game officers/DNR or local LE.

If that didn't work, Id collect up the videos & pics then go straight to the local media & raise a stink.

TV stations love the "gotcha" videos. The PD or game wardens will get interested then.

If it's a private gun club or range, Id let the board or club officers decide what to do.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:38 PM   #58
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I honestly don't know, Field, I honestly don't know...

I live in very rural Vermont, I can hit 5 towns and three counties by walking out my back door and heading up and along the ridges without crossing a paved road..(that's not meant as a challenge to my friends out west/Alaska/Canada, it's just the truth), so it's hard to say.

What I can say is that the folks who were given the responsibility of managing the WMA via the money the state receives b/c of the Pittman act seem to be losing to the folks who don't give a sh--... so if they can't manage that, they have no chance of policing the national forest. So that being the case, it would seem that the change needs to be made with the folks that are causing the problem, and I wish I knew how to do that.

Interesting topic; I'm glad that I own enough land to shoot on, also probably keeps the troublemakers moving on down the road.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Field Tester View Post
And where do you think they learned those values?
I am sick and tired of posters on this board blaming one group of people for a problem that reaches far and wide covering all age ranges.
It's as moronic as blaming today's violence on video games.

Knock it off!

No, I won't. I absolutely will not blame someone ELSE for another's actions. That's s typical attitude today that is responsible for the behavior of youth. It's no ones fault BUT THEIR OWN! Get over it and your own hate for people older than you.

We didn't catch 70 year olds shooting up our clubhouse and property and i
I'm not about to blame anyone else.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:49 PM   #60
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I belong to a very tightly run range, which is good. It keeps the riffraff down, whatever their ages. A little boring for some perhaps, since only paper targets are allowed. But it works, and range officers are always around. The target holders still get shot, as do the baffles. If anybody is caught, they're expelled from the range.

I go to another club as a guest of my friend, and the target holders at that club are constantly shot up. They, whoever they are, also shoot up the shooting benches once they're done with the target holders.

Same friend's family owns a farm where we also shoot. We have an informal range setup for handguns and rimfires. Depending on which crops are in that year, for rifles too. Another of the people who shoots there was nice enough to make swinging plate targets for all to shoot at with handguns.

And then of course, a nitwit who traps on the farm shot them all up with an AR-15. Now the plates look like the moon, all cratered up. He was going to replace them, but we're still waiting. It's been over a year now. At the very least, if it was up to me, his access to the farm would be over. But it's not my call.

Sometimes you feel like that old commercial with the Indian who has a tear running down his cheek when you see how little many people care about anything. It can be disheartening when fellow shooters do these things. There are really so few places you can shoot, and to have our own do this really stinks.
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:57 PM   #61
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Field Tester, I sure would wish that the hooligans that you refer to would stick to their video games and stay the he!! out of the shooting range. How do I know it's the kids, simply because that is where they have their beer parties. About a year and a half ago a young man was killed driving erratically from the range, rolled his vehicle and broke his neck. Not a pretty sight. I've been out at the range early in the morning and saw a bunch of beer bottles, Liquor bottles as well, strung about a makeshift campfire. Guess where they get the fire wood. from the barriers that were set up.

A number years ago I was getting ready to set up a tactical shoot for some security officers I was training, so I set up a wooden barrier, as well as two 55 gallon drums (Plastic), the day before. Needless to say the next day, early in the morning, when I arrived the wooden barrier was burned up and the plastic drums were also melted.

Now I know for a fact that the young punks aren't the only ones guilty of the abuse, as TV's, Computers, old couches and beds as well as other garbage are distributed out there, by people who don't have the common sense God gave a goose. Note: I mentioned earlier in my rant where the dump is only about 2 miles north of the range. All you have to do is have Republic Services Trash service to get into the dump and drop your garbage off without charge. Oh so you live in an Apartment Complex, well it costs you all of $10.00 to dump there, beats the heck out of a $500.00 fine.
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Old July 23, 2014, 10:11 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljnowell View Post
I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.
I see your two "kids" and raise you a pair of adults who did the exact same thing at my buddy's private range.

Let's not bother ourselves with silly concerns like assuming too much; it's so much easier and neater to overgeneralize, especially when our own confirmation biases are being, well, confirmed.

People don't have to be a certain age to be disrespectful.
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Old July 23, 2014, 10:20 PM   #63
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It is sad just how little a lot of folks care about stuff that isnt solely theirs. Its no wonder most farmers and other land owners hesitate to allow anyone but close friends and family to hunt and use their land. I've been pretty fortunate at my local, private range, but I guess the locked gate and annual fee (even though at $75 its pretty nominal) help to keep some of the worst offenders out. Still see occasional damage that is unacceptable, whether it was actually negligent or intentional, is irrelevant to me.

Im sure that a lot of the abuse is by some younger, careless members (hey even I wasnt perfect as a teen, though I can definitely say I never did anything to defile a gun range), but I've seen some older members do things equally as careless.
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:12 PM   #64
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I know your pain and disappointment. we've had a pretty decent shooting spot here for many years, and it's just a few minutes from my home. But over the last several years morons have been shooting TV's, refrigerators, trash, and other junk, and then they just leave it out there. Now the area has been closed to all target shooting.

We had other shooting spots as well that have been closed, all thanks to the morons who have absolutely no respect for our sport and environment.

GS
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:21 AM   #65
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No, I won't. I absolutely will not blame someone ELSE for another's actions. That's s typical attitude today that is responsible for the behavior of youth. It's no ones fault BUT THEIR OWN! Get over it and your own hate for people older than you.

We didn't catch 70 year olds shooting up our clubhouse and property and i
I'm not about to blame anyone else.
So two delinquents in this instance equates to every issue at your range? Also stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that anyone destroying property shouldn't be held accountable. But the lack of respect for a public area is a learned characteristic. This means that adults and those over 25 are doing the same, and are passing along the same morals to their children.

If anything I see more respect for the land and our firearm rights coming from younger shooters. I base this off of the extensive time I spend volunteering at my range for the Boy Scouts, Women On Target and Youth Trap. I see carelessness through all age groups however.

Are you having a tough time reading my posts? Where once have I said the blame rests squarely on the elderly? I personally have witnessed carelessness at several of Southern California's deserts with trash being left everywhere, shot up targets being left, spent casings being covered up, non off-road areas being tracked through, beer cans strewn about, etc...
You know who participates in this? Everyone who hasn't been taught properly and those who are apathetic and just don't care. I've seen it in my own camping group. All ages, 21-70, and usually male.
You know what I do about it?
I educate on the repercussions politically, environmentally and otherwise. I take out more trash than I bring in. I provide trashbags for my whole crew. I don't bring anyone with me that can't do the same and I refuse to camp with those that continue to ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm not an ageist. I'm a realist. This isn't a youth problem, and there's plenty if others here who obviously can attest to the same.
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:39 AM   #66
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Riff-Raff....

I can see the point about the riff-raff.
The big private club in my metro area that offers match use, rifles, pistols, shotgun, trap, meeting areas, bbqs, etc charges dues of about $450.00 per year.
Plus you must be a formal NRA member.
That keeps a lot of "weekend rangers" & posers away. It keeps me away too.

Really, Id pay the steep fees if it meant I had few restrictions or areas where I could shoot rifles, handguns, shotguns, etc w/o 9,000,000 distractions or problems.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:29 AM   #67
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Yep, the range I refer to does cost around $300 a year when you count paying for the work days if you can't work them. It's worth it, though.

The range officers do keep the idiocy to a minimum. A case in point, a guy brought his girl friend to the range. Everyone was glad to see a woman shooting figuring it's good for us.

We were on the benchrest range, concrete benches all around, sitting position only. One of the guns the couple brought was an M-1 Garand. After a while the woman begins to shoot it. She was standing up when she started, and the range officer immediately came over and stopped the shooting. He explained the problem to both of them, and they changed to a sitting position. No harm no foul. This one was due to not knowing the rules, and not from malice.

This range has had issues with the baffles getting shot up, and will expel anybody caught shooting them. Standing at the bench rest range will almost guarantee a baffle getting shot up.

At the farm range I shoot on, the target holders usually get shot up pretty quick. The other day we figured out why. One of the people who shoots there puts targets up side by side. This will just about force somebody into shooting the uprights since our target holders are only 2 feet wide plywood pieces. We're correcting that behavior so that should clear it up.
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Old July 24, 2014, 01:34 PM   #68
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Nanook, $300.00 a year, sure glad I live in a gun friendly state, all of a sudden $75.00 a year doesn't seem quite so high.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:31 PM   #69
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Range Rage

Seen the name on the thread (range rage) and thought of the crazed lunatic running around his truck acting a fool with 3 others 2 kids. He was throwing stuff. Cussing. Kicking. Screaming. One ran off and hid in the woods. After 5 min of ranting and raving he jumps in the truck and does a doughnut out of the gravel parking lot. I say that is some serious range rage. Everybody on the 4 ranges ceased fire and view the whole thing in sheer silence. Made me load up in a hurry. Range rage that made my skin crawl. Best wishes.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:43 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JudgeHolden10 View Post
I see your two "kids" and raise you a pair of adults who did the exact same thing at my buddy's private range.



Let's not bother ourselves with silly concerns like assuming too much; it's so much easier and neater to overgeneralize, especially when our own confirmation biases are being, well, confirmed.



People don't have to be a certain age to be disrespectful.

Gee, did I say that they did need to be a certain age. Go back and read my first post.


It absolutely amazes me that people post without even knowing what they are talking about. I never once said it's always kids and that adults don't do such things. You should stop assuming things.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:46 PM   #71
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Our worst of it are people being rude. A local gun store owner and their friends gave me troubles my last time out. A week before deer season I'm trying to sight in my new scope which was frusturating enough thanks to wind gusts, then to top it off these people. Lets take our half dozen ARs, shoot for 30 minutes straight and then stop. This went on for hours.
I'll also never forget some moron that was putting on some sort of class. They'd all get on a group on the range. Plus some were shooting at the 25 yard target 5 yards away from it. And the "instructor" would never ask could he go out and check targets, he'd just start walking. My wife almost shot him by accident because he walked in front of her while fractions of a second from pulling the trigger. After that we just left.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:47 PM   #72
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So two delinquents in this instance equates to every issue at your range? Also stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that anyone destroying property shouldn't be held accountable. But the lack of respect for a public area is a learned characteristic. This means that adults and those over 25 are doing the same, and are passing along the same morals to their children.

If anything I see more respect for the land and our firearm rights coming from younger shooters. I base this off of the extensive time I spend volunteering at my range for the Boy Scouts, Women On Target and Youth Trap. I see carelessness through all age groups however.

Are you having a tough time reading my posts? Where once have I said the blame rests squarely on the elderly? I personally have witnessed carelessness at several of Southern California's deserts with trash being left everywhere, shot up targets being left, spent casings being covered up, non off-road areas being tracked through, beer cans strewn about, etc...
You know who participates in this? Everyone who hasn't been taught properly and those who are apathetic and just don't care. I've seen it in my own camping group. All ages, 21-70, and usually male.
You know what I do about it?
I educate on the repercussions politically, environmentally and otherwise. I take out more trash than I bring in. I provide trashbags for my whole crew. I don't bring anyone with me that can't do the same and I refuse to camp with those that continue to ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm not an ageist. I'm a realist. This isn't a youth problem, and there's plenty if others here who obviously can attest to the same.

Do you think that was the only instance? Really? I'm guessing you are a member at my club? Did you expect me to list EVERY instance of vandalism??

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with percentages. Let me help you, I said 90% of the problem. That means that in every 10 occurrences one of them is an adult. It may even be an 80/20 ratio. That still doesn't change the fact that neatly every time we have people arrested for vandalism they are under the age of 21 and most of the time are not members.

Don't like the facts, too bad. Youth make poor decisions frequently and get caught frequently it's an age old pattern that isn't likely to change. Getting bent out if shape like you are won't change that.
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Old July 24, 2014, 02:51 PM   #73
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Quote:
We had other shooting spots as well that have been closed, all thanks to the morons who have absolutely no respect for our sport and environment.

GS
Would make a great poster.

Could hang it next to the "unofficial" spots, but all the dolts would do is shoot at that too, and the tree its on, the trees behind it, and then try and down the tree itself with trebuchets filled with broken glass and punctured oil filters.
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Old July 24, 2014, 04:38 PM   #74
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The Indiana DNR for Clark, Floyd, Harrison and Crawford counties, placed a new pit toilets at several sites including the self regulated shooting range at the Clark forest.

The idiots shot it to Swiss cheese, a brand new polyvinyl single holer that didn't stink and was maintained and stocked with paper, the one at a popular river access was bulldozed by some yahoo in a 4 wheeler , another older but usable one at a public fishing area was burned down.

Closes thing I can figure the a******* that are doing it must have them sewed shut !

These are the local redneck, beer bellied, jacked up 4 wheeler Bubbas that are ruining our areas, and if I can ever see one I will turn them in to the DNR's wardens.

Great thread !
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Old July 25, 2014, 03:43 AM   #75
RMc
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In an age where nationally televised shooting shows seem to constantly use glass bottles as targets, should it be any suprise to find broken glass and other assorted shot up junk at public ranges?
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