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Old August 1, 2014, 12:12 AM   #26
barnbwt
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"The rifle over the door was the rural standard and that rifle was commonly used to protect livestock, feed the family, or protect the family. The rifle was the defensive firearm."

That Orwell guy had a famous quote to that effect, if I am remembering correctly... It's worth noting that handguns have only been particularly effective defensive tools for most folks for a bit over 100 years (before then, the quality revolvers around were very expensive for most people; hardly a near-commodity appliance like today)

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Old August 1, 2014, 03:43 AM   #27
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Handguns vs rifles......

I, for one, do not look at a rifle as "offensive". Rifles are used for target matches, hunting, collecting, etc.
In turn, a handgun can be used as a lethal weapon. It can injury or kill a person the same way a rifle or shotgun could.

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Old August 1, 2014, 07:58 AM   #28
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@Sam1911: Sure, you absolutely would win that argument on technical grounds. Technically, nuclear weapons aimed at a nation's population centers can be 'defensive' too, if the intent is to deter attack. As with all things, context is king, and the reality is always more complicated than what is apparent at first blush.

I don't think, however, that you win public opinion on technicalities very often. If we're talking about winning hearts and minds of those in the middle, I don't think open carry of rifles is the way to do it, just because we don't get past the appearance factor. Remember what happened in California, when that noted conservative hero Ronald Reagan signed gun control legislation in response to open carrying at political protests. Appearances matter in political discourse. The civil rights movement in the South was very successful at cutting a non-violent appearance. But we also know that the 'non-violent' approach was possible thanks to the fact that the community was prepared.

This is where I'm coming from. That said, I can be (and am willing to be) talked out of this opinion.

Let's talk through a scenario here. This sort of situation is weighing on my mind.

My daughter is almost 2 years old. We live in the city, and there are several playgrounds nearby that we go to occasionally. Let's say we're both there. It's an urban residential area. A few other children are playing nearby. A person unknown to me is walking down the street near the playground carrying an M1 Garand. He's wearing a tacticool vest. He turns into the playground. He hasn't taken any action other than to walk into the playground. I don't think the person has seen either me or my daughter yet. I have concealed on my person a 9mm Glock and one spare magazine (as typical).

What should I do in this situation?
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Old August 1, 2014, 12:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Johannes_Paulsen View Post
Let's talk through a scenario here. This sort of situation is weighing on my mind.

My daughter is almost 2 years old. We live in the city, and there are several playgrounds nearby that we go to occasionally. Let's say we're both there. It's an urban residential area. A few other children are playing nearby. A person unknown to me is walking down the street near the playground carrying an M1 Garand. He's wearing a tacticool vest. He turns into the playground. He hasn't taken any action other than to walk into the playground. I don't think the person has seen either me or my daughter yet. I have concealed on my person a 9mm Glock and one spare magazine (as typical).

What should I do in this situation?
What if we modify your scenario just a bit?

Let's say the person walking has his shirt blow open by the breeze and you clearly see a pistol tucked into his waistband without a holster. Instead of a tacticool vest, he's wearing tats on his arms and neck, and baggy clothing with a bandana hanging out.

In either situation, you can pick from the same four options.
1. Collect your daughter while spreading the alarm and starting a panic.
2. Collect your daughter, leave the park, and contact authorities as a concerned citizen.
3. Stay and square off on the individual since you are armed also.
4. Stay and maintain vigilance as your daughter plays until an actual threat is presented. Then act. If no threat is there, then continue to enjoy your day.

I'd say 2 and 4 are reasonable, but 1 and 3 are not. Why? Neither scenario gives you enough situational data to assume that something is wrong or illegal. The jerky boy in your scenario may just be another dad coming to collect his child at the park. The jerky boy in mine might also be a dad doing the same.

I realize our experiences are different in life. As a result, I look at tacticool boys and think of how foolish they looks. I look at the assumed thugs and think the same. Either way, I'd still keep an eye open for danger, or I'd leave the area calmly.
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Old August 1, 2014, 01:03 PM   #30
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A rifle slung over your back like the ones in the photos is not a self-defense tool unless you live in an area where attackers customarily give you a few seconds early warning. It's a statement, and not one that seems to be helping our cause.
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Old August 1, 2014, 01:08 PM   #31
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... He hasn't taken any action other than to walk into the playground. I don't think the person has seen either me or my daughter yet. I have concealed on my person a 9mm Glock and one spare magazine (as typical).

What should I do in this situation?
Without really wanting to get into a specific situation that may or may not exactly pertain to any similar one brought up by the OP...

I'd say that's where your "OODA" loop kicks into gear. You have to Observe what this guy's doing so you can Orient yourself appropriately to him and Decide how you should Act. In other words, you've got to figure out what's going on. As I've pointed out in other threads, that's not commonly normal in peacetime American society, so what's he about? He might be a really bad guy. He might be a really ok guy, but looking for an "OC rights" type non-violent confrontation with the Police. You may completely reasonably decide you don't want to be present for what happens next, regardless.

(If he's a really BAD guy, your options just may be grim. Neither fight nor flight may be likely to end in a positive way.)
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Old August 1, 2014, 04:38 PM   #32
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Old August 1, 2014, 04:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnbwt View Post
"The rifle over the door was the rural standard and that rifle was commonly used to protect livestock, feed the family, or protect the family. The rifle was the defensive firearm."

That Orwell guy had a famous quote to that effect, if I am remembering correctly...

Orwell was talking about how citizen militias (or an irregular armed working class) can only exist as a status quo in egalitarian democracies and are a counterbalance to statism. Specifically the right wing conservative kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Orwell
Even as it stands, the Home Guard could only exist in a country where men feel themselves free. The totalitarian states can do great things, but there is one thing they cannot do: they cannot give the factory-worker a rifle and tell him to take it home and keep it in his bedroom. THAT RIFLE HANGING ON THE WALL OF THE WORKING-CLASS FLAT OR LABOURER'S COTTAGE, IS THE SYMBOL OF DEMOCRACY. IT IS OUR JOB TO SEE THAT IT STAYS THERE.
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Old August 1, 2014, 06:02 PM   #34
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Carrying rifles in public places like this is not normal and that's part of the point of OC protesters doing it. Originally intended to make a political/social statement about OC not being legal for handguns in TX the protesters were doing something out of the ordinary to get OC for handguns promoted. ...
Now I get it - it is embarrassing to admit that up until this thread I did not really understand the rationale behind the often-perceived confrontational public demonstrations in family restaurants, et al.


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Originally Posted by hso View Post
When you lose your message, in your face political "speech" just becomes whatever your opponents and the folks muddying the message want to turn it into.
Very well put. I can distinctly remember how that applied to some rather outlandish 'street theater' I (ahem) 'witnessed' in the early 1970's working to stop the War in Vietnam and to Impeach Nixon.
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Old August 1, 2014, 10:00 PM   #35
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The open carry of a rifle is silly at best, harmful at worst. Why live you're life looking for an unnecessary and non beneficial confrontation? You will never make someone scared of guns comfortable around them by waving and lugging rifles around on you're back. You do succeed however in annoying them, and inconveniencing them if they feel so unsafe that they choose to leave. You waste your time and any officers who respond. That's another thing if the police get a call about a guy acting strange carrying a semi automatic rifle or shotgun they are going to send a unit to respond, it would be idiotic not to. Each time you open carry rifles in a blatant disregard for other people it just increases the chance of something going wrong. Its not giving you a tactical advantage, its jst as slow or slower on the draw than concealed carry and much more obvious than the open carry of a handgun. If you find yourself needing a rifle and several magazines of ammunition you probably dont have the training to deal with said situation, or are already dead because you were an obvious threat to the criminal. You want to use it as a form of protest? Fine just do it properly and make sure its clear that's what it is, a protest and not some attempt to inconvenience people. You dont want to be like the WBC protesting funeral and the like? That's what anti gunners view you as, or similar to and its not the way to win hearts and minds. I'm not saying dont OC but do it for the right reasons and not just to stick your tounge out at the rest of society.
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Old August 2, 2014, 06:40 AM   #36
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@Apachedriver: Our perspectives really aren't that different, although you clearly don't live in a northeastern urban area, as I know a few people who sport tats and wear bandannas who are just good folk. Sure, in your hypothetical, if someone was (say) wearing gang colors/ink and carrying a poorly-concealed firearm, and if it was a man, and if he was in a certain age bracket, I'd be on alert with him, too. No question.

That said, I'll note that you had to change the description of the person in the hypothetical. In fact, if we keep it as is - some guy wearing a tacticool vest, except he's open-carrying a pistol at the playground instead of a rifle. He becomes a person of interest, but again, I know lots of people who open carry around here (and it's perfectly legal in Pennsylvania, although carriage of a firearm either open or concealed in a 'city of the first class' requires a license). He becomes a person of interest, and I'd watch to see what he does, but I'm not immediately going to run screaming for the hills. This is my own bias that a handgun, since it is easily portable and can be carried with little effort while one goes about their daily business, is typically going to be carried for defensive purposes, because if you were seriously expecting or going to start trouble, you'd be carrying a long gun.

In fact, my wife encountered a fellow open-carrying a 1911 at one of the Pittsburgh parks a few months ago. (No, it wasn't me.) He was just...some guy.

I'm having a hard time with the rifle carry because, the wisest decision I can see to make in this scenario (at playground with 2 y/o daughter, guy carrying a rifle shows up,) is to leave. Carrying a rifle takes considerably more effort than carrying a pistol. It is quite out of the ordinary in an urban area. The person is either doing it to (a) make a political protest, (b) because he expects a serious attack on his life, or (c) because he's there with malicious intent. I'm not inclined to stick around because (a) I wasn't consulted about joining any protest that day (and protests can get violent, or at least unpleasant -- remember I have my daughter with me,) (b) I have no intent to stay around if someone's gunning for this guy, and (c) I certainly don't want to stick around if he's about to open fire.

And that's the problem I'm having with this rifle open carry business. Under normal circumstances, one doesn't just say, "Well, I'm going to head to the grocery store, pick up a few things at Home Depot, heck, I'd better grab the .30-06." It is (bringing it back to the OP,) outside the norm, and while I support the legal right, I also try to be cognizant of the fact that having the legal right to do something doesn't always make it the right thing to do.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:34 AM   #37
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The open carry of a rifle is silly at best, harmful at worst.
I was stationed at Charleston AFB fom '86 to '97. At that point in my life I owned a shotgun (Franchi SAS-12) and one handgun (Gen1 Glock 17 back when Glocks were illegal to sell in SC) and had never carried in public legally. Permits were hard to get, so if you *really* needed to carry you stuffed it down in your waistband and hoped for the best. My opinion on carry in public wasn't really even formed yet.

I remember walking around Tel Aviv at night back in the late 90s; people everywhere with loaded automatic rifles slung on their backs. Both men and women. Not all, or even most, but scattered amongst the mass of people moving around in the cool of the evening were regular citizens, heavily armed and ready to do violence if violence were necessary.

Even with my relative ignorance about firearms carry, I felt more safe there in Tel Aviv than I ever did in NYC, Madrid, London, or Boston.

So, is it merely cultural, or have you been brainwashed by the media portrayal of firearms as being purely instruments of misdeed?

People have asked me what I consider to be the greatest benefit to having flown worldwide missions for over 17 years, and I have to say it's the experience of being immersed in so many diverse cultures. Something being 'different' doesn't mean that something is wrong, it's just different. The term "ugly American" comes from Americans traveling abroad and demanding other cultures change to suit ours.

What's truly "silly" and "harmful" (your terms) is making such absolute declarations.
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Old August 2, 2014, 02:25 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I remember walking around Tel Aviv at night back in the late 90s; people everywhere with loaded automatic rifles slung on their backs. Both men and women. Not all, or even most, but scattered amongst the mass of people moving around in the cool of the evening were regular citizens, heavily armed and ready to do violence if violence were necessary.
Hold on. If you saw an Israeli carrying a rifle, they were in the military.

If an individual meets the stringent requirements for private firearms ownership they are only allowed a single handgun and 50 rounds of ammunition for personal defense.

Also,
Quote:
"Limiting gun ownership is at the top of our agenda, and I intend to hold a weekly follow-up meeting on the subject," Public Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch said in the statement.

"The security situation in Israel in recent decades has led to the granting of numerous gun licenses. We intend to restrict this while protecting necessary balance. In the last 10 years the number of licenses of firearms has been reduced from 300,000 to 160,000, and now we are reducing the number of licensed firearm-carriers by 10,000 a year," Aharonovitch said in the statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Aharonovich
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Old August 2, 2014, 02:41 PM   #39
Mainsail
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Hold on. If you saw an Israeli carrying a rifle, they were in the military.
I won't argue that point, I wasn't then aware of any of their gun laws- we left ours on the airplane. I was only there for one night (stupid airplane breaks easy in Ivory Coast, but hardly ever someplace you'd like to stay for a few days) and all I could see were young and middle age people in civilian clothes with slung auto rifles. I don't recall seeing any handguns.

The point is the same though. From what I knew then, regular citizens were walking around with automatic rifles. It didn't make me uncomfortable, which was a time in my life it had the most possibility of doing so.
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Old August 2, 2014, 03:13 PM   #40
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It is also worth noting that Israeli soldiers are not allowed to have a magazine in their rifle while toting it about.
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Old August 2, 2014, 03:34 PM   #41
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The point is the same though. From what I knew then, regular citizens were walking around with automatic rifles. It didn't make me uncomfortable, which was a time in my life it had the most possibility of doing so.
Perhaps it didn't, but don't make the mistake of thinking that if that was your take on it, it will be or ought to be everyone else's too. I see far too many people here making that mistake, especially in regards to open carry. I've cited letters to the editor from my local paper wherein the letter writers stated they felt an aversion to a guy openly carrying a pistol openly (holstered, of course, the entire time). They were not moved to think "oh, this is just an ordinary guy who happens to be carrying a gun; I guess gun owners are just like the rest of us." And this, even though one woman said the open carrier was perfectly polite, and even seemed to want to help her find something she was looking for in the store where she encountered him. Nevertheless, she found him ridiculous, and her impression of him was that he was a mall ninja or something.

I'm not saying this to defend her position; I happen to think her reaction was unreasonable, her thinking emotional, not logical. I merely point this out to state facts. People do tend to think emotionally, rather that logically, and whether or not you have any respect for their opinions, these are voters who have just as much influence on public policy as you or I, perhaps more, if they are at all politically active.

Another example is the open carry advocates who stridently assert that it's a deterrent. And the same people will sneer at the suggestion from those (like me) who maintain concealed carry is almost always a better option when available, because a bad guy really intent on doing harm will just target you first, and maintain that this never happens. (This turns out not to be the case, BTW -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY. As an aside, listen to one of the ordinary citizens interviewed for this piece, a young female -- she says she has seen the guy around the neighborhood carrying openly all the time, and she found him scary.) The problem, again, is they are equating what they think, to what everyone else thinks. They are making a rational calculation in their heads, and it certainly seems like the most reasonable thing in the world, so they figure everyone must think that way. Folks, it's just not necessarily so. These posters are law abiding citizens, and they don't really think like a criminal does, especially not a hardened, violent, repeat offender with a long list of felonies on his record.

So again, bear in mind that what you think on this issue is your opinion, and a lot of other people have differing ones that they hold just as strongly as you hold yours, and that they think are every bit as reasonable and natural for other people to share.
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Old August 2, 2014, 06:41 PM   #42
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It is also worth noting that Israeli soldiers are not allowed to have a magazine in their rifle while toting it about.
They're not allowed to have a round chambered when carrying a handgun, either.

But Israel's writ don't run in the US.
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Old August 2, 2014, 09:39 PM   #43
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So comparing a thirdword/less developed country to the us? Cultural differences ingrained so deep that complete removal is almost impossible, throwing it in their faces makes them hate it more and spread their hate faster, even if its not as fast as the desire to own forearms is. You still cannot refute that it is abnormal, and I hope it stays that way because if it doesn't it means something will have gone terrible wrong. It also makes you a very obvious target to any thug in the area and pushes other people to avoid you. Its not socially acceptable to most people. Atleast answer why you simply with to alienate other people and have them avoid you? Those people carried because that's the only realistic option they had, atleast from what I can tell from you're comment. Please if you can CC or OC a handgun then yes please do carry a rifle if you feel the benefits outweighs the negatives but be realistic about it. Its not an action movie putting that rifle into play is going to take time if something bad goes wrong, time you may not have. Even more so if a round isn't chambered.
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Old August 2, 2014, 10:26 PM   #44
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It also makes you a very obvious target to any thug in the area
That's why you can't hardly walk down the street without stepping on the bodies of dead policemen -- because police carry openly and become "a very obvious target to any thug in the area."
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:05 PM   #45
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Wow
>completely ignoring the fact police often have backup/a partner
>Usually don't patrole the worst of the gang neighbor hoods on foot
>Wear body armor
>have a cb radio
>are seen as more of a nuisance
>are not usually the victims of armed robbery either

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871
http://icarry.org/ftopict-3299.html

You cannot compare law enforcement to the average citizen. Don't be willfully dense.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:17 PM   #46
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That's why you can't hardly walk down the street without stepping on the bodies of dead policemen -- because police carry openly and become "a very obvious target to any thug in the area.
Sentryau2 covered this pretty well. You are comparing apples and oranges.

That said... if you are going to be targeted by someone really intent on robbery or murder, your carrying openly is not liable to be much of a deterrent. I've already linked to a video of a news report about a man who was targeted apparently because he was armed -- the robber took his gun. And even police officers do get killed by people who target them. Remember the 4 Lakewood, Washington police officers were murdered at the former Forza Coffee Company in 2009? A lone gunman walked into the coffee shop, walked right over to their table and shot them all dead. Their being armed certainly didn't automatically deter him.

The thing is, a criminal intent on doing harm has the initiative. He acts. Others have to react to him, whether they are law enforcement or civilians, and they will often be caught completely by surprise. In other words, he's likely to have the drop on you. If you are carrying openly, you have identified yourself, before you are even aware there is going to be trouble, as someone to be dealt with, if he's not willing to walk away and try again some other time. If you are carrying openly, you are showing your hole card. Sometimes open carry is the only option you have, and if that's so, and you have a need to be armed, then that's what you'll have to do. But if you have the option, it's almost always smarter to carry concealed.
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Old August 3, 2014, 12:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Billy Shears View Post
That said... if you are going to be targeted by someone really intent on robbery or murder, your carrying openly is not liable to be much of a deterrent.
That said... if you are going to be targeted by someone really intent on robbery or murder, your carrying concealed is not liable to be much of a deterrent. In fact, it's no deterrent whatsoever.

Quote:
But if you have the option, it's almost always smarter to carry concealed.
That's certainly an opinion, but why do you state it like it's common knowledge?

I've been carrying openly for ten years now, no drama. I carried openly every day very close to that Forza Coffee Shop too.

So who are you that I should take your advice? Do you or have you carried openly in the most crime infested city in the PNW? All you have is your speculation and maybe an outlier attack- you haven't proven anything. You haven't shown it to be common or even somewhat expected. I've seen open carry deter a crime, from about five feet away (that's how close he got before he noticed it).

Wait...what? Open carry isn't even a guarantee that "someone really intent on robbery or murder" will even notice it in the first place? Well doesn't that just blow your unsubstantiated theory away....

We go 'round and 'round on this forum about open carry all the time and not everyone will ever agree, but I can tell you from substantiated experience that while it [OC makes you a target] certainly *could* happen, so could anything else.

When you have actually gone out and carried openly, and have done it for years, then you will have an opinion based on experience, until then all you have is youtube and so-and-so said... which is to say you have very little. If you at minimum had someone else's experience upon which to draw your opinion, then maybe you could generate an informed opinion, but you don't even have that.

So what do you actually have? The unsubstantiated theory that it's better to wait until after the attack has already begun and only then react to that....from waaaaay behind the curve.... Riiiiight....

Is OC better than CC? Of course not. Both have their place (at least in the free states) and both have advantages and disadvantages. For me and the threat most likely to present itself where I often am, open carry is far better. In some places where I go, concealed carry is better. Most often, carrying concealed-then-open or open-then-concealed works great. Options are always great. Too hot, screw CC and take off the coat, now I'm OC.

If your mind is closed, so be it. If you really believe that openly carrying a handgun in a holster is going to destroy your right to keep and bear arms, I suggest that you prepare for that now, because we aren't going to stop carrying [a handgun openly in a holster] based on your theories and fantasies. So if you really believe it, you better start digging holes in the yard.
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Old August 3, 2014, 01:09 AM   #48
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That said... if you are going to be targeted by someone really intent on robbery or murder, your carrying concealed is not liable to be much of a deterrent. In fact, it's no deterrent whatsoever.
Demonstrably false. A definite statistical drop in violent crimes has occurred in every jurisdiction where they have passed shall-issue concealed carry laws. And what's more, the laws help protect citizens who aren't carrying, by introducing an element of uncertainty about who is armed, something that certainly cannot be said of open carry.

Quote:
That's certainly an opinion, but why do you state it like it's common knowledge?
Because I've already posted an example of a person being targeted despite, and perhaps because of carrying openly. Open carry not only did not deter, but also did not help him. They bad guy had the drop on him, and by the time he knew he needed to defend himself, it was too late to react. He had no alternative but to meekly surrender his weapon to the mugger.

On the other hand, there are instances of concealed carriers able to deploy their weapons to save themselves, and take the bad guy unawares when it became clear they were probably going to be killed, such as in this story, http://www.kfvs12.com/story/24474261...allas-co-store, where a citizen was able to draw and shoot a gunman who tried to herd him and the store clerk into the break room. This would not have been possible had the bad guy been able to spot him as armed. And lest you think that's an isolated incident, here's a page with a similar incident from a Walgreen's in St. Joseph, Missouri in 2007, http://www.armed-citizens.com/ArmedC...dCitizens.aspx (unfortunately the heroic store employee was fired by Walgreen's for violating policy and carrying a weapon -- no good deed goes unpunished).

Open carry gives you little to no advantage in an urban area, where you are surrounded by people and will be reacting rather than acting. I am not the only one who thinks this either. Here's firearm's expert and trainer Rob Pincus on the matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxvOjO7XjMU. And for myself, while I am not a recognized expert, I am a serving law enforcement officer with far more training than most armed citizens ever get, and Mr. Pincus' opinions certainly go along with mine on this. Based on my own training and experience, I don't see any tactical advantage to open carry for a citizen in an urban area, and there are significant disadvantages.

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I've been carrying openly for ten years now, no drama. I carried openly every day very close to that Forza Coffee Shop too.

So who are you that I should take your advice?
See above.

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Do you or have you carried openly in the most crime infested city in the PNW?
Yes, including a ride-along with the Seattle PD in 2007 when I almost moved out there to join that department. And in other cities besides, both concealed and open.

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All you have is your speculation and maybe an outlier attack- you haven't proven anything.
No, I have a good deal of training as well, and that includes weapon retention -- something essential if you are going to carry openly. I also have far more experience dealing directly with violent criminals than most armed citizens will ever have, thanks to being a cop. Prior to joining the police department in 2000, I got a concealed permit in Virginia in 1996, as soon as they passed the shall-issue concealed carry permit law here, and prior to that, when it was all I could legally do, I did carry openly on some occasions.

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You haven't shown it to be common or even somewhat expected. I've seen open carry deter a crime, from about five feet away (that's how close he got before he noticed it).
Really? What crime was this person about to commit? How do you know that? Did he tell you?

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Wait...what? Open carry isn't even a guarantee that "someone really intent on robbery or murder" will even notice it in the first place? Well doesn't that just blow your unsubstantiated theory away....
I have cited examples for my "unsubstantiated theory." Last time I checked supporting evidence was substantiating. It is you who have offered only unsupported opinion.

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We go 'round and 'round on this forum about open carry all the time and not everyone will ever agree, but I can tell you from substantiated experience that while it [OC makes you a target] certainly *could* happen, so could anything else.

When you have actually gone out and carried openly, and have done it for years, then you will have an opinion based on experience, until then all you have is youtube and so-and-so said... which is to say you have very little.
Yeah, I've only been a cop for fourteen years, what would I know?

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If you at minimum had someone else's experience upon which to draw your opinion, then maybe you could generate an informed opinion, but you don't even have that.
Now, in addition to unsupported opinion, you are also making totally unwarranted assumptions, which are also false, as it turns out. What was your basis for such assumptions? You don't know me from Adam, and couldn't possibly have any idea what my level of experience is.

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So what do you actually have? The unsubstantiated theory that it's better to wait until after the attack has already begun and only then react to that....from waaaaay behind the curve.... Riiiiight....
When the bad guy is acting, and you are reacting, you are already "waaaaay behind the curve." I say this from experience getting into fights with criminals. Not gunfights (yet, thank God!), but violent confrontations. You'll be standing there calmly talking to someone and the next thing you know, the fight's on. If you are alert, you may pick up cues from his behavior that he's about to break bad on you, but maybe not.

At least if your weapon is concealed, and you come under attack, there may come a moment when your assailant looks away or turns to focus his attention on someone else, and you have the opportunity to draw and fire. That's how it played out in the two examples I linked to above where robbers tried to herd employees and customers toward a back room in a store -- a scenario that too often results in deaths (q.v. Stanley "Tookie" Williams).

I can also tell you, from experience on the range on the qualification course, that I can deploy my department-issue Glock 19 from a concealed holster under my suit coat about as fast as I can from my level 2 retention duty holster that I carry it openly in when I am in uniform. Here's Rob Pincus again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlojGZeu6GA, showing the difference in draw speed, and it's only just a tenth of a second slower drawing from a concealed holster than it is an open one. In an actual gunfight, what is going to really slow you down is the element of surprise and your startle response, and the delay while your shocked brain is still trying to figure out what's going on and then evaluate the threat. The extra tenth of a second you will need to sweep aside your concealing garment is not going to be the most significant factor delaying your response.

You seem to leap to the conclusion that I have little training or experience. But if you really think you are going to be miles slower drawing from concealed carry than open, then I have to say it is you who seems to be lacking either training or experience. Your expectations in this area are unrealistic.

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Is OC better than CC? Of course not. Both have their place (at least in the free states) and both have advantages and disadvantages. For me and the threat most likely to present itself where I often am, open carry is far better.
Perhaps, but perhaps not.

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In some places where I go, concealed carry is better. Most often, carrying concealed-then-open or open-then-concealed works great. Options are always great. Too hot, screw CC and take off the coat, now I'm OC.

If your mind is closed, so be it.
My mind is not closed, it is informed by training and experience -- again, more than the average armed citizen has.

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If you really believe that openly carrying a handgun in a holster is going to destroy your right to keep and bear arms, I suggest that you prepare for that now, because we aren't going to stop carrying [a handgun openly in a holster] based on your theories and fantasies. So if you really believe it, you better start digging holes in the yard.
Well, I never said that. But open carry activists did succeed in getting the state of California to outlaw the practice. They've also demonstrably motivated businesses who wanted to stay out of the whole debate about gun rights to come down on the side of excluding weapons from their property. So if you are carrying openly for defense, fine, and I support your right to do so. If you are carrying openly when you can carry concealed, in an urban setting, then I respectfully submit, you are probably not choosing the better option. But if you are carrying openly for the purpose of making a political statement, then I submit you are indeed more likely to be instrumental in getting the right curtailed.

Last edited by Billy Shears; August 3, 2014 at 02:16 AM.
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Old August 3, 2014, 10:28 AM   #49
CoalTrain49
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To me this is just another public demonstration or I'm going to demonstrate to you, the public, that I can do do this because I have a right to do it. To me it isn't any different than women going topless in public to demonstrate that they can legally do it. It doesn't mean that they will continue to do it everyday in public because of obvious reasons just as a guy isn't going to lug his AR with him to Walmart. Some women want to go topless in public, I used to see it all the time in Europe at the beach and I'm starting to see it more here. I don't consider it antisocial any more than someone who wants to carry a gun. People who have issues with public nudity or OC should take a look at their own slightly askew views and quit trying to shape the world so they will be more comfortable with those around them. That to me is antisocial deviant behavior. To those people I say get over yourself.
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Last edited by CoalTrain49; August 3, 2014 at 10:38 AM.
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Old August 3, 2014, 10:44 AM   #50
JDBoardman
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In the mid-1950's into the 1960's, Blacks staged sit-ins and demonstrations throughout the South to bring attention to the inequities in their treatment; exclusion from public accommodations, restaurants, lunch counters, and so forth. The behavior of many of my fellow Southerners was one of shock and horror, with a "how dare they do that! don't they know their place?". Now, we look back in embarrassment at those archaic attitudes, and those Americans who stood up peaceably for their equal rights are now looked upon very favorably.

When one protests against the status quo, one can at first expect horror and derision, then later, simply being ignored, and finally, acceptance. As it was with the Civil Rights movement in the '60's, so may it be with Open Carry in the 2000's.

And for those who are "shocked" by my comparing equal opportunity and equal accommodation to open carry, may I remind you that both principles are enshrined in the Constitution, and the fact that a portion of the public doesn't like the free exercise of our rights is just too D@#$ bad.
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