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Old August 10, 2014, 10:17 AM   #176
TestPilot
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Quote:
You'll quickly find that making clicking noises at bad guys is relatively ineffective.

Both types of firearm are MUCH more effective if they're loaded (part of the manual of arms).
What is your point?

At the start of the fight the gun should already be loaded anyway.

The rest of us, we carry our guns loaded, so we only need to aim and pull the trigger, regardless of whether if it is a self-loading Glock or M&P or a revolver.

Even if I take loading into consideration, I do not see why putting rounds in a magazine then insert the magazine and racking the slide would be particularly complex compared to opening a cylinder, putting rounds in, then closing it. Reloading during a fight would be definitely stacked against revolvers.

Last edited by TestPilot; August 10, 2014 at 10:27 AM.
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Old August 10, 2014, 10:22 AM   #177
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Passe? No. But i do carry a semi auto.

Size, capacity and ease of reload. Thin is in....
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Old August 10, 2014, 10:31 AM   #178
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If I were to wake and find 5 armed intruders in my home, I probably wouldn' be able to successfully dominate them regardless of choice of weapon. What's the better part of valor? Discretion.
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Old August 10, 2014, 11:29 AM   #179
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Quote:
You'll quickly find that making clicking noises at bad guys is relatively ineffective.

Both types of firearm are MUCH more effective if they're loaded (part of the manual of arms).
Quote:
What is your point?

At the start of the fight the gun should already be loaded anyway.
Yeah, I guess I didn't get the point of that either.
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Old August 10, 2014, 12:33 PM   #180
Derry 1946
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I've given a lot of thought to improving my readiness with the best available technology. Still, I've not found a package that beats the round butt Colt DS, for my purposes. It conceals easily in front pocket, IWB, jacket pocket, or (rarely) shoulder holster. It's heavier and less weather-resistant than my 642, but has one more round. Reloads are easy to carry with speed strips or speed loaders. It's extremely reliable with any ammo. All the auto loaders I've tested are harder to conceal and draw -- for me --because they are more angular. I'm also convinced that revolvers have significantly fewer failures than autos (a better click-to-bang ratio). Revolvers will become obsolete (for me) when they stop making .38 and .45 ammo. No disrespect to the many excellent autos out there, or their loyal users, and I try to remain open to additional evidence and the evolving marketplace of tools and knowledge.

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Old August 10, 2014, 01:02 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestPilot View Post
No.

Revolver: aim and pull the trigger.

Glock, M&P: aim and pull the trigger.

Self-loaders that require anything more is by the choice of the buyer, not because it is a self-loading pistol.
I didn't go into an overly complicated scenario because I didn't know that this had to be a binary debate.

Specifically, in my case, regarding my wife (or my mom, or my mother in law, or my brother in law) who is not a "gun person":
A revolver is much easier for her "figure out". As is personal preference, I don't keep a chambered striker fired gun in my house. Having a 4 year old, for me, means layers of security in case negligence on my part happens (i.e. I forget to close the door to my bedside safe with my HD pistol in it in the morning).
For my child's safety I prefer to have my pistols in condition 3. It would require her to access the pistol and manipulate the heavy slide. If some has made it into my house without the attack mutt going after them and them making it to me sleeping in my bed, then the 2 seconds it takes to chamber a round probably isn't going to make a lot of difference. Keep in mind, all of my carry guns are kept in condition 2 or 1 depending on what you consider having the hammer down with the safety off a traditional DA/SA pistol. What some may consider unnecessary precaution is due to the fact that the weapon is not on my person 100% of the time.

HOWEVER, when I am going out of town I leave a loaded DAO revolver in the safe, because my wife can shoot it well and it's simple. No slide to pull back, no light triggers to touch off, no confusion on what makes the pistol safe, no confusion on what releases the slide. On top of that, her hands are strong enough to handle the 12# trigger pull. My daughter can't manipulate the gun well enough to easily fire it.

For my needs, the revolver is easier for my wife to safely deploy as she really has no desire to learn about firearms beyond the most basic of point and shoot skills. It's the same reason I leave her the shotgun loaded and unchambered in a high up by accessible point over the Ar I usually keep there. She can work the action easily. She's rides the charge on the Ar too much. It's not a good fit for her comfort and skill level. Long story short, she fumbles with the controls on my pistols and can keep 5 rounds of .38 special in the kill zone at 10 yards out of a revolver.
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Old August 10, 2014, 01:33 PM   #182
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Quote:
I didn't go into an overly complicated scenario because I didn't know that this had to be a binary debate.

Specifically, in my case, regarding my wife (or my mom, or my mother in law, or my brother in law) who is not a "gun person":
A revolver is much easier for her "figure out". As is personal preference, I don't keep a chambered striker fired gun in my house. Having a 4 year old, for me, means layers of security in case negligence on my part happens (i.e. I forget to close the door to my bedside safe with my HD pistol in it in the morning).
For my child's safety I prefer to have my pistols in condition 3. It would require her to access the pistol and manipulate the heavy slide. If some has made it into my house without the attack mutt going after them and them making it to me sleeping in my bed, then the 2 seconds it takes to chamber a round probably isn't going to make a lot of difference. Keep in mind, all of my carry guns are kept in condition 2 or 1 depending on what you consider having the hammer down with the safety off a traditional DA/SA pistol. What some may consider unnecessary precaution is due to the fact that the weapon is not on my person 100% of the time.

HOWEVER, when I am going out of town I leave a loaded DAO revolver in the safe, because my wife can shoot it well and it's simple. No slide to pull back, no light triggers to touch off, no confusion on what makes the pistol safe, no confusion on what releases the slide. On top of that, her hands are strong enough to handle the 12# trigger pull. My daughter can't manipulate the gun well enough to easily fire it.

For my needs, the revolver is easier for my wife to safely deploy as she really has no desire to learn about firearms beyond the most basic of point and shoot skills. It's the same reason I leave her the shotgun loaded and unchambered in a high up by accessible point over the Ar I usually keep there. She can work the action easily. She's rides the charge on the Ar too much. It's not a good fit for her comfort and skill level. Long story short, she fumbles with the controls on my pistols and can keep 5 rounds of .38 special in the kill zone at 10 yards out of a revolver.
My criticism is not toward you prefering a revolver or a revolver working for you.

My criticism is about you using your specific scenario to make a generalized statement and present it as if it's a universal fact.

Some novices who are "not a gun person" do better with self-loaders, some do better with revolvers. Some complete novice might find self-loaders more hard to figure because they cannot see how the feeding mechanism works, but some novice might find revolves harder because the hit better with 5.5~6.5 lb DAO trigger than a 10+ lb ones.

You also cherry pick exapmples like having to manipulate a thumb lever to make the pistol fire when a large portion of self-loading pistols do not require it.

Also, it is you who made this "binary." You did not say revolvers are "easy." You said "easier." When you said "easier" I am pretty sure you did not mean "easier than a musket pistol."


It is not my intent to convince people to change preference.

However, I do find it important, from a constructive standpoint, to stop perpetuating myths. "Revolvers are easier than self-loaders" as a general rule is, as far as I am concerned, a myth.

If there are 100 adults with average intelligence without any knowledge of guns and give them an hour with both a revolver and a self-loader, not all of them will find revolver easier in all aspects. SImply "figuring" it by being able to see the cylinder with bullets rotating is one thing. How effective a shooter one is with having spent only an hour with each system is another matter.

Last edited by TestPilot; August 10, 2014 at 01:46 PM.
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Old August 10, 2014, 03:36 PM   #183
Derry 1946
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When I first got a CCP, I took my revolver to the range portion. Everyone else had autos. The instructor spent a while explaining what to do if you have FTF, FTE, stovepipe, field stripping, limp wristing, ammo finickiness, etc., saying at each step, well, this does not apply to revolvers. Then, to show how easy it is to operate an auto, he racked the slide, and a spring flew out. Just lost a c-ring, he said, no big deal, I know where to get more. I still get a chuckle out of that. I'd like to see a real, scientific study of the reliability of the various platforms. Anecdotally, I hear many more tales of kabooms and failures with autos than with revolvers. But we all know what that is worth, epistemologically.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:19 PM   #184
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[QUOTEHowever, I do find it important, from a constructive standpoint, to stop perpetuating myths. "Revolvers are easier than self-loaders" as a general rule is, as far as I am concerned, a myth][/QUOTE]

Without you setting and defining the criteria for "easier" it is merely your opinion and does not make Fiv3r's opinion any less valid than yours.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:27 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derry 1946 View Post
When I first got a CCP, I took my revolver to the range portion. Everyone else had autos. The instructor spent a while explaining what to do if you have FTF, FTE, stovepipe, field stripping, limp wristing, ammo finickiness, etc., saying at each step, well, this does not apply to revolvers. Then, to show how easy it is to operate an auto, he racked the slide, and a spring flew out. Just lost a c-ring, he said, no big deal, I know where to get more. I still get a chuckle out of that. I'd like to see a real, scientific study of the reliability of the various platforms. Anecdotally, I hear many more tales of kabooms and failures with autos than with revolvers. But we all know what that is worth, epistemologically.
Bravo, Derry !

"The Scottie" had it by the two dangling orbs.

Last edited by Gun Master; August 10, 2014 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Details.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:32 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSA1 View Post
[QUOTEHowever, I do find it important, from a constructive standpoint, to stop perpetuating myths. "Revolvers are easier than self-loaders" as a general rule is, as far as I am concerned, a myth]
Without you setting and defining the criteria for "easier" it is merely your opinion and does not make Fiv3r's opinion any less valid than yours.[/QUOTE]

Right on BSA1 !

I believe that's within the Moderator's bailiwick.

Last edited by Gun Master; August 10, 2014 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Details.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:41 PM   #187
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Every once in a while I see a new revolver shooter (meaning someone who has only owned or been trained to shoot semiauto pistols) either bring a revolver through a qual/training range, or express an interest in trying one.

It usually means there's a steeper learning curve involved before they can really start running the revolver. Sometimes it's the grip shape, sometimes the heavy DA/DAO trigger, and sometimes it's the lack of a magazine and having to open a cylinder and individually load charge holes.

Lots of folks who transitioned from revolvers to pistols, and then let their revolvers lay neglected in their safes for some years, may require a little bit of a refresher, but those skills seem to quickly return for many of them in short order.

As an instructor, I'd much rather transition a revolver shooter over to pistols than vice versa.

Properly acquired and practiced DA revolver skills seem to often make for "better" all around handgun shooters.

As an armorer, I'd much rather have to detail disassemble & repair many different makes/models of pistols than a S&W DA revolver.

As a S&W revolver armorer, however, there are fewer repairs typically required under normal circumstances and conditions of usage, and fewer wearable parts to inspect and replace as preventive maintenance. Revolver springs, if of factory spec, tend to last a long time.

Owner/shooter neglect may adversely affect the optimal functioning of many types of pistols sooner than with revolvers.

Owner/shooter-induced stoppages related to grip issues seem more likely to occur with pistols than with revolvers. Things like improper slide manipulation, thumbing the slide, freedom of slide travel, etc.

Improper handling & manipulation can introduce problems regardless of whether it's a pistol or a revolver, though.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:53 PM   #188
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We've beaten the revolver vs. semi-auto horse to death and back with this one. I think fastbolt has made an excellent post on which to close.
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