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Old August 6, 2014, 10:27 AM   #26
hso
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Praxidike,

We still can't escape the fact that training is critical in properly using these sorts of defensive tools. If nothing else, to dispel the myths/misunderstanding of their use and the dangers inherent in their use. It is incumbent on the responsible user to get some training in properly using this sort of equipment.
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Old August 6, 2014, 11:42 AM   #27
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Post 23.....

To answer post #23, let's put that into context....
Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton.
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect?
A similar situation would be different with a Taser(C2/X26c) where a citizen could deploy the EDW then call for help or watch over the thug as they contact 911/police. The same can be said for chemical sprays or OC but they immediate effects wouldn't be the same as a gunshot or a Taser hit.

I also disagree with the "common sense" remark. Not all bystanders or even jurors are going to be honest or fully involved in the process.
Don't be naive & think a criminal investigator or prosecutor will have your interests or concerns at heart.
This is what makes use of force & lethal force events so tricky.
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Old August 6, 2014, 02:45 PM   #28
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Yeah, MadcapMagician, I loved the ol' PR24 myself for those same reasons ... and then there was the famed "Georgia State Police Take-down" that got your guy proned out ASAP into a cuffing position (I never quite mastered it myself, but it looked cool) ...

Issued the ASP now for many years, never ever used it except in training (I did have a partner who pulled his one night and a response came from the crowd, "Boy, you better put that stick away 'fore I shove it up yer ***").

We tend to go straight for our TASERs or OC to stop a subject's action(s).

As an intermediate force option, a collapsible baton has never really sold me ... I cannot see a citizen/civilian application for a collapsible baton, because if you're already in an intermediate force situation, it's probably escalating quickly anyway and you're not going to be able to use it for creating distance unless you can deliver effective strikes ...

Quote:
Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton.
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect?
Ah, you guys are now getting a little too far down in the weeds ...
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Old August 6, 2014, 06:17 PM   #29
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Aww shucks.....

Well aww shucks....
I guess you can't or won't answer.
It's a difficult topic. That's what you(as a private citizen) need to consider before packing a impact weapon.
I'd go on to bet that some "outhouse" lawyer will stroll in 5/10 later & claim to know the laws or "witness" all the events.
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Old August 6, 2014, 06:59 PM   #30
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If your carrying a baton here in Ohio, atleast my city, your either a cop or a member of the highschool marching band.

Or a criminal with baton and wanton disregard for the law.
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Old August 6, 2014, 08:41 PM   #31
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Bats, D cell Mag-lights......

Bats of different shapes & sizes have been the "poor man's" security system for decades. To see a bat by the door in a New York City apt isn't uncommon.
Many years ago, the police union & FOP in Chicago IL lobbied hard for street cops to keep using the alloy shaft Mag-Lights over newer, lighter polymer models.
The Windy City cops said they had to keep the Mag-Lights.

In the days before white-lights & small EDC type lights, I toted a 5 cell C Mag-Light. It was handy & bright. I liked the balance & swiftness of the C types over the thicker D series Maglights.

Rusty
PS; it's off topic slightly but most MLB players now buy & use custom bats. They aren't cheap but players can use what works best considering weather, temperature humidity wind speed etc.
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Old August 7, 2014, 10:32 PM   #32
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I've seen a few cheap collapsible batons here and there. I have never been particularly impressed, personally.

The legal ambiguity is a big turnoff for me. If you actually used it for defense, you'd probably get in the same amount of trouble you would for using brass knuckles. Good luck convincing law enforcement that you intended to use it in a non-lethal fashion...

You also have to get rather up close and personal. I would not look forward to dealing with an assailant with a knife using a baton. Or even a large mean dog, to be perfectly honest.


The only thing it has going for it is being collapsible, and therefore somewhat more discreet than a T-ball bat. I would far prefer the T-ball bat (preferably aluminum) in most every other way. At least you won't get hassled and find yourself trying to explain to the cops why it is legal to even possess in [insert your state here]. I'm not a lawyer, but I think you're good in all 50 states...

Your preferred flavor of Mag-Lite works, too.
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Old August 8, 2014, 12:11 AM   #33
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Batons, and even ball bats are just not a good idea for constant carry in everyday life.

A baton, collapsable or not, is viewed as a weapon in most jurisdictions all over the country.

And you hit hit someone with a ball-bat?
You better darn well be able to prove you were on your way too, or coming home from a baseball game!
Or it is perceived as a weapon too!

Why not just carry a wood stockman's cane?
If you limp a little when the cops get there!

You are protected by the Federal ADA act, and they can't even legally question you much about why you were carrying it as I understand it.

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Old August 8, 2014, 09:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
ADA act, and they can't even legally question
That has become one of those internet/defensive discussion myths. The reality is that there's a reluctance to question whether you should be carrying a cane or not through a security checkpoint as opposed to in the event of an altercation or defensive use.
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Old August 8, 2014, 09:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911
Non-lethal is a complete misnomer here. Depending on your training and how you use it, it MAY be "less-lethal."
So much this.

Please please please if you are going to carry a baton get proper training with it and practice regularly. A baton used improperly can easily cause death or serious bodily injury.
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Old August 8, 2014, 01:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton.
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect?
I don't get this argument that you all keep bringing up. Okay, so the argument is if I'm defending myself or some else in public with a baton, It might be seen by bystanders that I'm the suspect? Yet, if I'm pointing a gun and am firing at someone in public, am I not going to look even worse to bystanders? Aren't the bystanders going to be in fear of their lives as well being that bullets travel, but batons do not? Aren't the bystanders going to be in possible danger of also being stuck by a stray bullet no matter how careful I am?

I'm not going to shoot someone, take a life, and put a family though all the pain and suffering that comes with it when I could have used a "less lethal" options that will afford me the opportunity to get away or stop the attack without killing anyone or putting other lives in danger. Basically, some of you are suggesting that I shoot someone instead of using a "less lethal" baton for no other reason than appearances at that moment in time? Not to open up this debate again, but for example, did Zimmerman look any better or have less or more explaining to do when he shoot an unarmed man vs if he had only, extremely conservatively, used an baton?

I seen many threads on THR about people carrying canes for self defense too. Have any of you cane carriers taken a self defense cane class?
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Old August 8, 2014, 02:32 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hso View Post
A baton is useful if you're trained in using it to defend yourself. Just yourself. AND that training is important more than you realize.

I'm trained and certified to carry one and I've trained with sticks for years and I promise you that it is remarkably easy for an amatuer to missunderstand the complexities of using one.
Roger that. I have always wanted a baton but it is illegal in Illinois. That said, I have studied and taught several forms of weapons including swords and short/long sticks and batons and folks tend to underestimate just how bad you can hurt someone with "a stick".

My brother in law (a police officer) took to obligatory training and was fooling around down on the farm with one "showing me some stuff" and I cautioned him that a few hours of training with it did not qualify him as an expert. Which he took as a personal affront and decided to show me a thing or two with his stick.

I took it away from him and gave it back 3 times. Then we had a fruitful instruction period about what you can (and can't) do with a baton. But my point is that these types of weapons are not casual things. I think in the hands of someone trained they are more likely lethal or quickly incapacitating than a firearm depending on the target and level of force/technique used or not used. Don't play with sticks. Someone can definitely get seriously hurt even if not by intent.

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Old August 8, 2014, 05:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hso View Post
Praxidike,

We still can't escape the fact that training is critical in properly using these sorts of defensive tools. If nothing else, to dispel the myths/misunderstanding of their use and the dangers inherent in their use. It is incumbent on the responsible user to get some training in properly using this sort of equipment.
thanks for the info. I'm going to look into getting some training. Not sure if anyone in my area offers it or not, but I haven't looked yet.
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Old August 8, 2014, 09:15 PM   #39
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If there's an ASP trainer, and they're all over, you should be able to find one.

Also, look into escrima schools (but they're not going to teach you how to not mess someone up badly).
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Old August 9, 2014, 11:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by hso View Post
If there's an ASP trainer, and they're all over, you should be able to find one.

Also, look into escrima schools (but they're not going to teach you how to not mess someone up badly).
Roger that as well....I trained with escrima proponents and *not* getting hurt in training is difficult. The exercises and "kata" are cool but when we commenced to testing each other it became quickly apparent that without serious safety gear someone is gonna get hurt right off the bat. In escrima against Japanese style tanto jutsu and Hanbo one or the other involved in kumite usually got injured in the first couple exchanges.

All of these techniques transfer directly to using a baton or short stick(s) and if yer gonna have one/use one training is essential.

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Old August 9, 2014, 01:02 PM   #41
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I don't like collapsable batons and when I worked in uniform, carried a PR-24. It has something the collapsable batons don't have: mass. Even then, I found using control techniques more useful than striking a person (fewer citizen complaints too).
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Old August 13, 2014, 03:29 PM   #42
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Perception, training....

First, I agree that having formal training or instruction from a respected source is very smart. To document this skill training & having it ready for any lawyer, investigator, prosecutor, etc is a good idea.
There are a few top classes/cadre in my metro area so I can't complain.
If there are no schools or cadre near you, buy a few DVDs or guides(keep the records too to document that you purchased them).


Also, re; the Walmart-Home Depot lot incident(s), holding a subject at gun-point after a lethal force event would be different than using a impact weapon or sap.
In the modern era, "witnesses" or "by-standers" will quickly use cell phones or DV cameras to document you using the weapon.
A firearm can also be lethal but by-standers may assume you are a licensed citizen or law enforcement officer doing a off duty arrest. They won't see you striking or hit the subject with a gun the way you'd use a baton or cane.
The whole story would later come out either by law enforcement or the store CCTV/staff/etc.
In short, a firearm would be better weapon to have & hold a subject(detain) than a impact weapon.
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Old August 13, 2014, 04:47 PM   #43
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I often EDC a baton when not working (job site is restricted, but also safe). I started with them back when I worked security where I got training with Monadnock Autolock series, a product line I still prefer to this day. I feel they are superior both for their weight and the fact that they do not require smashing into the the floor to close.

Since I can't carry a gun in MD, I continued to carry a baton after I got out of that line of work, though always carry pepper spray and at least one knife when I do. I also collect batons like the old classic Espantoon of Baltimore fame. I carry walking sticks too, and primarily carry a baton when the stick would be in my way or I need both my hands for the task I'm setting out to.

Get training. Simple as that. You're a walking liability without it. Not only will it teach you how to use it properly, it will dispel many of the unrealistic ideas we often have about use of force in defense. Not just legal, but what such situations actually tend to be in real life, vs. the ones we imagine.

Beyond that, I find a lot of the what-if-ing and legal speculation about civilian baton use on this forum over the years to be tiresome, but will say no more, other than to say do your legal homework and talk to the right people. Not all experts are created equal.
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Old August 14, 2014, 03:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
A firearm can also be lethal but by-standers may assume you are a licensed citizen or law enforcement officer doing a off duty arrest.
Not intended to derail the thread, but one shouldn't necessarily be worried about what bystanders might assume. If you're holding someone at gunpoint in your local Wal-Mart parking lot and not holding up your shiny badge in your other hand while repeating loudly, "Police officer" or "deputy sheriff," you are still in for interesting interaction with the responding cops, and quite possibly more at risk of getting shot yourself by some rookie or adrenaline-charged Tackleberry ("man with a gun" calls get some folks a bit fired up) who's violating Rule #3. Holding an asp baton calmly at your side, maybe not so much ...
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Old August 14, 2014, 04:30 PM   #45
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Baltimore MD police batons, by-standers.....

First, I did some research & heard of a Baltimore Maryland PD officer who creates custom night-sticks & batons while off-duty.
Many Baltimore police cadets & Maryland state troopers get these wood night sticks when they graduate from the LE academy or when a officer/trooper retires.
I'm not sure if the police officer sells batons to the general public but it would be cool to collect if you buy night-sticks/batons.

As for the "by-standers" Id say review the recent Martin-Zimmerman event(court case) in central Florida, 2013.
In a critical incident, witnesses & on-lookers will tell all types of tales. Some true, some not.
I also wouldn't think you'd be standing "calmly" with your ASP by your side.
Working security in a few urban & metro areas, I can tell you, large crowds will flare up in a split second, evidence(weapons, drugs, etc) get snatched up or hidden, people(by standers) will make things more complex or unsafe until LE shows up. .
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Old August 14, 2014, 04:51 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackelford View Post
First, I did some research & heard of a Baltimore Maryland PD officer who creates custom night-sticks & batons while off-duty.
Many Baltimore police cadets & Maryland state troopers get these wood night sticks when they graduate from the LE academy or when a officer/trooper retires.
I'm not sure if the police officer sells batons to the general public but it would be cool to collect if you buy night-sticks/batons.
Yes, his name is Sgt. Chase Armington (Perryville PD) and he sells them under the name Elite Espantoons. He does sell to the general public as there are no restrictions on batons in Maryland. I own one in cocobolo with an inscribed strap. They are gorgeous pieces, and quite a bit bigger than you'd expect.
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Old August 15, 2014, 01:59 AM   #47
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Ah, Rusty ... your scenario of someone "standing over" someone else (post #27) whilst striking him with a large stick seems a tad extreme. Batons would not normally used to strike someone once they are down (late 20th century LAPD doctrine notwithstanding).


Quote:
In a critical incident, witnesses & on-lookers will tell all types of tales. Some true, some not.
I also wouldn't think you'd be standing "calmly" with your ASP by your side.
Working security in a few urban & metro areas, I can tell you, large crowds will flare up in a split second, evidence(weapons, drugs, etc) get snatched up or hidden, people(by standers) will make things more complex or unsafe until LE shows up.
Having actually responded to a number of incidents where large crowds were present (followed by the dubious pleasure of interviewing numerous bystanders after said incidents), I still believe that it's the presence of a gun pointed at someone that garners far more negative attention and responses than a situation wherein one delivered a couple strikes to a primary zone on some disruptive individual's person ...

glistam, thanks for the link. Cool stuff for the guy who might be retiring soon ...
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Old August 15, 2014, 05:21 PM   #48
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Post #47.....

I think with #47, we can agree to disagree.
The wood baton website is nice. Thanks for the details & link.
I like the Sheepdog night sticks too so buying a wood baton would be a tough choice.
Another firm, called "street-ninja" or something offered wood sticks of different lengths & styles(maple, hickory, bamboo, walnut, etc).
I'm not into tooling or woodworking so I don't know all the terms.
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