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Old August 17, 2014, 11:03 PM   #51
peacebutready
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR View Post
Me, unless it is an unreasonably short time, having a gun repaired free because I had the opportunity to "shoot" it out, by putting too much ammo downrange with it, seems like a win/win.
I agree with that. I probably should have mentioned being tired of sending guns back with less than 1000 rounds through it.
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Old August 17, 2014, 11:12 PM   #52
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Use different metal in the future?

If a K-frame can't digest a steady diet of .357, maybe they should use one of the more exotic metal in high-stress areas. S&W made .357 models that were about 15 oz (scandium?). Maybe using a different metal would enable a K-frame to absorb as much, if not more shellacking than a current Model 686.

I don't really know anything about metallurgy.
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Old August 18, 2014, 06:25 AM   #53
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealGun
I'm tired of waiting months for gunsmithing, but S&W and Taurus have returned guns lickety split.
peacebutready replied - Surprised to hear that about Taurus. I thought it was like pulling teeth based on things I read.
Truth be told, they only did a test fire and returned the gun with the test target, indicating that 2" high and left was "within spec" on a fixed sight gun. But they did that within two weeks, as I recall.
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Old August 18, 2014, 01:48 PM   #54
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I admit I'm rather opinionated and it is my opinion the biggest mistake S&W has made is chambering 'J' and 'K' frame sizes in .357MAG.
My not too humble opinion.
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Old August 19, 2014, 06:26 PM   #55
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I admit I'm rather opinionated and it is my opinion the biggest mistake S&W has made is chambering 'J' and 'K' frame sizes in .357MAG.
My not too humble opinion.
Apparently people like them but tend to mention how they shoot 38 Special and "like the option to shoot 357 Magnum".

I have a Model 60 Pro and like it with Speer Short Barrel. It will never see 38 Special, for which I have other nice guns.
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Old August 19, 2014, 07:35 PM   #56
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Apparently people like them but tend to mention how they shoot 38 Special and "like the option to shoot 357 Magnum".

I have a Model 60 Pro and like it with Speer Short Barrel. It will never see 38 Special, for which I have other nice guns.

IIRC, the Speer Short Barrel loads are less powerful than full .357 loads.
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Old August 20, 2014, 06:29 AM   #57
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IIRC, the Speer Short Barrel loads are less powerful than full .357 loads.
It would be hard to tell in the smaller, lighter gun. The shooting experience would be comparable to full power rounds in bigger guns. "Short barrel" ammo is definitely not a way of wimping out, unless you use it in 40-something ounce gun.
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Old August 20, 2014, 01:12 PM   #58
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Yep, RealGun they seem to be popular with some, just not me.
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Old August 20, 2014, 01:23 PM   #59
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If they bring back the 2.5" I'm snapping one up.
Same here. I've been casually searching for a Model 66 snub, but I'd go with this new model to avoid the potential forcing cone issues.
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Old August 20, 2014, 04:24 PM   #60
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"Short barrel" ammo is definitely not a way of wimping out, unless you use it in 40-something ounce gun.

It's not available in 158 grainers, is it?
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Old August 20, 2014, 06:06 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by RealGun
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"Short barrel" ammo is definitely not a way of wimping out, unless you use it in 40-something ounce gun.

It's not available in 158 grainers, is it?
Is there a point you're trying to make?
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Old August 20, 2014, 07:24 PM   #62
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I agree, is there a point to your post about not being made in 158gr?

It's not the bullet weight that did the damage to the forcing cones, it was the velocities the lighter bullet was pushed to. The 135gr Speer short barrel .357 Magnum ammo is rated at only 990 fps, hardly a magnum load in any gun. In contrast their short barrel .38 Special +P load is rated at 860 fps.

The only reason why anyone is calling the Speer short barrel .357 Magnum load a magnum load is it's printed on the box and they are using .357 Magnum brass. IMO it's just a good .38 Special +P round they claim is a magnum.

IMO it was created to make all those buyers who spent all that money on a 12oz Airlite J frame Magnum feel good. They get the impression they are shooting a .357 Magnum because that's what the box says so they feel justified spending more than twice on their revolver as those who bought a Airweight in .38 Special.
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Old August 20, 2014, 08:07 PM   #63
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It's not the bullet weight that did the damage to the forcing cones, it was the velocities the lighter bullet was pushed to. The 135gr Speer short barrel .357 Magnum ammo is rated at only 990 fps, hardly a magnum load in any gun. In contrast their short barrel .38 Special +P load is rated at 860 fps.
You'd think a Short Barrel round would be rated from a short barreled gun, inherently lower in velocity. Likewise, a 38 Spl +p would not likely be rated from a short barrel. The Speer book shows that to be the case, using either a S&W Model 19, 6" or a Model 19, 2.5".

The median velocity for suggested Short Barrel loads using Unique is your 990 fps. However, 5 out of 7 powders listed are higher. The median for AA #9 is 1230 fps. I think then that your characterizing Short Barrel as a 38 +p load is straining to be cynical about the round and those who use it. In reality it is a very well suited round for light weight and short barrel 357s, yet is still within the range of being a bona fide .357 Magnum.
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Old August 20, 2014, 08:36 PM   #64
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You'd think a Short Barrel round would be rated from a short barreled gun, inherently lower in velocity. Likewise, a 38 Spl +p would not likely be rated from a short barrel. The Speer book shows that to be the case, using either a S&W Model 19, 6" or a Model 19, 2.5".

The median velocity for suggested Short Barrel loads using Unique is your 990 fps. However, 5 out of 7 powders listed are higher. The median for AA #9 is 1230 fps. I think then that your characterizing Short Barrel as a 38 +p load is straining to be cynical about the round and those who use it. In reality it is a very well suited round for light weight and short barrel 357s, yet is still within the range of being a bona fide .357 Magnum.
Actually, Speer does test their "Short Barrel" ammo in a short barrel. Both the .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum ammo are tested in a 2" vented barrel.

A few years back I did extensive testing on replicating both of those Speer loads. I was working with a few other loaders online and working with Speer. The girl on the phone gave me information that surprised me. They usually won't tell you which powders to use in a replica load but at the time they had a data sheet available and she hinted at which powders I should try. (as in we have reports XX powder gives the best results {wink wink}) I not only wanted to match the velocities but I wanted to match how the recoil felt. I feel I did just that...

It turns out AA#5 is best for the .38 Special short barrel replica.
It turns out Power Pistol is best for the .357 Magnum short barrel replica. (of course they add a flash suppressor)
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Old August 21, 2014, 06:20 AM   #65
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The Speer book shows 38 Spl +p, 135 Grain GDHP, Short Barrel load, AA#5, to be 819 min and a max of 878 fps.

For 357 Mag Short barrel, Power Pistol, it shows a min velocity of 1046 and a max of 1137 fps.

That's quite a spread between the two calibers.
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Old August 21, 2014, 09:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by RealGun View Post
The Speer book shows 38 Spl +p, 135 Grain GDHP, Short Barrel load, AA#5, to be 819 min and a max of 878 fps.

For 357 Mag Short barrel, Power Pistol, it shows a min velocity of 1046 and a max of 1137 fps.

That's quite a spread between the two calibers.
Sure those numbers are good if you reload but if you are buying factory ammo the numbers are 860 fps for the .38 Special +P and 990 for the .357 Magnum from a 2" vented barrel. There is no way around that if buying factory ammo and many shooters in this forum don't reload unlike when we are in the reloading forum.
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Old August 22, 2014, 09:43 AM   #67
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First a disclaimer: Note that some of this early (circa 1970) data that follows was apparently NOT pressure tested, and may not be advisable . . . especially with current 2400 powder, which may be a bit different than what was being sold back then.

I haven't tried these specific loads myself, but I've come across some data in this particular Speer manual that is - absolutely! - too hot for any of my guns, producing pressure signs at levels well below Speer's recommended maximum charges. YMMV, use caution, etc.

The 1st edition of the Speer #8 loading manual lists .357 Mag loads for short (2 1/2") barrels that are considerably warmer than most current data - for example, with 125 grain and 160 grain jacketed bullets, charges of 2400 powder of 19.5 grains and 15 grains produced velocity of 1378 and 1199 ft/sec respectively, with a CCI 550 primer. These were tested in both Colt and S&W revolvers.

So why present this "old" data at all?

The main useful take-away from this early Speer data is that even in short barreled revolvers, the highest velocities still came from slower-burning powders, albeit at the cost of increased muzzle blast.
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Old August 22, 2014, 10:26 AM   #68
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Sure those numbers are good if you reload but if you are buying factory ammo the numbers are 860 fps for the .38 Special +P and 990 for the .357 Magnum from a 2" vented barrel. There is no way around that if buying factory ammo and many shooters in this forum don't reload unlike when we are in the reloading forum.
That's a 15% increase for 357 Magnum. That strikes me as significant, when attempting to equate short barrel 357 ammo with 38 Spl +p. It sounds to me like Speer is using Unique or perhaps Universal, yielding velocities on the lower end of powders suggested in their book.
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