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Old August 25, 2014, 09:57 AM   #1
HRnightmare
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Leaving a SBR or suppressor in the car

So everyone always talks about a trunk gun or a truck gun...

What''s the legalities or opinions of the writing of SBR's being left in your trunk while out running errands or traveling (lets keep it within the state to avoid the discussion on needing that approval).

If you leave an SBR in the car in the parking lot of a store or your work is that considered not in your possession enough to be at risk of facing criminal action?

I tend to be of the opinion that it is NO different than keeping it in your home, not in a safe which is PERFECTLY legal, but others have said it is NOT the same and violates the rules of class 3 items.

Opinions...facts?
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Old August 25, 2014, 09:57 AM   #2
Sam1911
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What rules of TITLE II items (not "Class 3" items) would those be? Somebody stealing your stuff doesn't count as you doing an unlawful transfer.


Some states do have laws requiring some form of secure storage for guns in general (or handguns) but I've never heard of any for NFA weapons specifically.


My guideline for this sort of claim is to always ask someone to give you the source and text of the law that requires whatever it is they say is required. If they can't, then ... hmmm...
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Old August 25, 2014, 10:17 AM   #3
HRnightmare
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Yeah It was at a gun class so I wasn't really getting into it in depth with him. He seemed unknowledgeable about firearm laws in general but was a lawyer.

Like I said, I was of the opinion as you are that locked inside my trunk is in my possession and is no issue.

I read the NFA rules and could not find anything contradicting such but you know how that goes...there are 300 different interpretations to everything the NFA branch says. Even they have contradicted their own opinions.
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Old August 25, 2014, 10:19 AM   #4
Willie Sutton
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For what it's worth, a buddy who's an FBI Agent never seems to not have his MP-5 with him in his car. The FBI "Standard" for car trunk security is a chain and lock inside the trunk that allows the trunk to be popped about 4 inches by using the usual key, and then you need to reach thru the crack and use a second key on the padlock. If it's good enough for them as a security plan, it's good enough for us.


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Old August 25, 2014, 10:22 AM   #5
4thPointOfContact
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If someone were to make the claim that an NFA item in one's trunk wasn't in one's possession when the person is not in the immediate area of the trunk....

... then ask them if they weren't in the immediate area of the trunk and 20-kilos of cocaine were found in it would they not have to worry about a possession of controlled substance charge.

(Yes, my pronouns are all mixed up, try to muddle through )
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Old August 25, 2014, 11:47 AM   #6
HRnightmare
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If someone were to make the claim that an NFA item in one's trunk wasn't in one's possession when the person is not in the immediate area of the trunk....
And that is sort of the same scenario I said to him. What if I left it in my home in a closet and someone broke into my home and stole it. Would that not be considered in my possession? What if I was at a range and I turned my head to sneeze and someone snatched it behind my back. Would that not be in possession? What if someone came into my house and was able to crack into my safe?

I told him I think he is taking the rules far to extensively. It does NOT need to be chained to his wrist at all times.

My concern more than this one would be what if I had my SBR on me and there was a situation were I needed it. I am not going to not do what must be done to preserve my life or someone else's but I could only imagine the turdstorm that would come from someone using a class 3 AR15. What would the media even call that? "Sawed off assault machine gun"? "hacked down mini AR15 designed for murdering puppies and children"? I could only imagine the smear campaign that the anti gunners would come up with.
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Old August 25, 2014, 12:08 PM   #7
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Two key security is common for .Gov use, and done all the time by the Army. The intent is that defeating one lock might be unintentional - it may have been left that way, people make mistakes, latches can malfunction. Defeating two locks demonstrates clear intent at least as it's been traditionally defined by case law, etc.

So if somebody came to get your guns and was prepared, would any more locks deter them? Not so much.

As for the legal owner of any firearm, storage in a vehicle would more likely revert to state laws - and the carrying of a rifle is often called out as being unloaded, cased, with ammo stored separately, both out of sight.

Whereas, a "handgun," or more distinctly called out in some states, a "pistol," can be carried loaded in the passenger compartment by a CCL ready to hand, and not necessarily on his person. What throws a wrench into the discussion is which State? One says yes, another, no, a third, maybe?

Now make that SBR a pistol with a wrist brace and see where it fits. "Rifles" and "pistols" are often addressed in different ways, and what will be interesting is seeing how and why that might have to be reconciled. I'm considering a SB15, it will be legally a "pistol," but on body carry will obviously not be happening. So just exactly how I can transport in my state and the three other states located 7, 15, and 35 miles away is going to mean a lot of research.

Nobody wants a simple traffic stop for innocuous reasons to get all sour. With that in mind, I'm not expecting any pat, one size fits all answer. It's complicated.
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Old August 25, 2014, 12:09 PM   #8
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And that is sort of the same scenario I said to him. What if I left it in my home in a closet and someone broke into my home and stole it. Would that not be considered in my possession? What if I was at a range and I turned my head to sneeze and someone snatched it behind my back. Would that not be in possession? What if someone came into my house and was able to crack into my safe?

I told him I think he is taking the rules far to extensively. It does NOT need to be chained to his wrist at all times.
You have to wonder, What's the difference between 'secured in my car' and 'secured in my safe?' Or do guys who believe this line of reasoning just always walk around everywhere with an AR-15-shaped bulge under their coats?

The rules are sometimes convoluted enough without adding our own bizarre interpretation, but some of us always seem to manage to do it.

ETA: this is not aimed at you, OP, but at your "gun class" source.
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Old August 25, 2014, 12:19 PM   #9
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The rules are sometimes convoluted enough without adding our own bizarre interpretation, but some of us always seem to manage to do it.
I couldn't have said it better.

I think we agree that if someone has to force their way into our property and take without permission by way of a criminal act, then they removed it from "our possession" whether thats in my safe, my trunk or whatever else.

Heck, even my wife's flower pots and garden gnomes are sitting in the front yard unsecured and we are at work, but I would argue they are in our possession.
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Old August 25, 2014, 02:00 PM   #10
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I carry all 10 of my NFA items with me at all times. It gets really difficult drying them all after a shower.

Seriously, NO. They do not have to be in your possession just not in someone else's possession!

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Old August 25, 2014, 06:00 PM   #11
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It gets really difficult drying them all after a shower.
I'm so used to Facebook that I was looking for the "Like" button for this comment! Funny one, Mike.

I think some people overthink things.

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Old August 25, 2014, 07:43 PM   #12
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In your possession OR under your control. Anything in your car would most certainly be under your control if you have the car keys with you. Same with your safe at home.

Arizona Mike is right. It's pretty tough hauling a Solothurn around with you.
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Old August 28, 2014, 09:54 AM   #13
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Locks are for honest people but they do show ones intent on keeping others out. A lock on a car door can be just as effective/ineffective as a safe. Varies a lot on the person.

My setup is pretty basic.

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Old August 28, 2014, 03:06 PM   #14
HRnightmare
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Jmorris Is that your vehicle?

I have seen this photo floating around the internet. Not to side track the conversation but do you think a gun in plain sight is the best idea?
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Old August 28, 2014, 10:19 PM   #15
Aaron Baker
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As I recall, that does belong to jmorris. And as I understand it, it's not in plain sight unless you're kneeling down next to the door, looking up through the window at the roof of the jeep.

So, in other words, someone could theoretically see it from outside the vehicle, but they wouldn't unless they had some reason to be trying to look inside the vehicle in the first place. A little window tint would go a long way in that department too.

Of course, I don't know where jmorris lives. Could be he's still in one of those few places in the United States where it's still safe to leave guns visible in vehicles without fear of theft.

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Old August 29, 2014, 10:58 AM   #16
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It's mine and no you can't see it. You would be surprised at how few people look up when trying to see what is in a car.

I went through a road block a number of years ago and for whatever reason the officer asked if I have any firearms in the car. With my hands remaining on the wheel I motioned up with my thumb and eyes. He bent down and said "Oh.", then took a step away from the muzzle.



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Old August 29, 2014, 04:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
I went through a road block a number of years ago and for whatever reason the officer asked if I have any firearms in the car. With my hands remaining on the wheel I motioned up with my thumb and eyes. He bent down and said "Oh.", then took a step away from the muzzle.
You made my day.

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If it involves guns or paracord it does not count as macramé.
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Old August 31, 2014, 12:36 AM   #18
bangswitch
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It probably goes without saying, but always carry a copy of your tax stamp form with you whenever carrying the SBR/suppressor, NFA items, etc.
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Old August 31, 2014, 01:47 PM   #19
Aaron Baker
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It probably goes without saying, but always carry a copy of your tax stamp form with you whenever carrying the SBR/suppressor, NFA items, etc.
It doesn't actually go without saying.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a good idea, and it's good advice to tell people to do it.

But it isn't required. And in my state, at least, there are no state laws against suppressors, SBRs, etc. As an attorney, I'd feel comfortable dealing with state or local police who had a knee-jerk reaction. I believe I could avoid a big hassle without having to have my private tax documents available to show them.

ATF agents are, technically, the only people you have to show your tax stamps to. And I've never met one in the field.

So, sure, carry copies of your tax stamps. It's a good idea. But I never do.

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Old September 1, 2014, 12:08 PM   #20
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I would not want to be out without a copy of the form. I keep a copy in my range bag as well as a grip core on the gun
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Old September 6, 2014, 12:41 AM   #21
bangswitch
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Originally Posted by Aaron Baker View Post
It doesn't actually go without saying.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a good idea, and it's good advice to tell people to do it.

But it isn't required. And in my state, at least, there are no state laws against suppressors, SBRs, etc. As an attorney, I'd feel comfortable dealing with state or local police who had a knee-jerk reaction. I believe I could avoid a big hassle without having to have my private tax documents available to show them.

ATF agents are, technically, the only people you have to show your tax stamps to. And I've never met one in the field.

So, sure, carry copies of your tax stamps. It's a good idea. But I never do.

Aaron
My cousin, who is well known in his area, had his suppressed SBR in his car when he went through a routine traffic stop being performed by the county sheriff. The rifle was lying in the back seat of his car, unloaded, in plain view, and he also declared it and the concealed carry he had; the deputy asked him for his "permit" to possess a suppressed rifle. He then showed the deputy his tax stamp form. Since his is a county where the local sheriff will not sign applications for either SBR or suppressors, his rifle is in trust, which does not require the sheriff to sign the form. The deputy, upon seeing that the form did not have the sheriff's signature, declared it invalid and was going to confiscate the rifle and take my cousin in. My cousin is a former NC ALE officer and worked closely with BATFE and knows the regs inside and out. He insisted that the deputy call both the sheriff and the BATFE officer for the area, to explain the trust registration.

So, sometimes it doesn't even help to have the form with you, if you come upon a LEO who is ignorant of the regulations.
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Old September 6, 2014, 09:24 PM   #22
Warp
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My cousin, who is well known in his area, had his suppressed SBR in his car when he went through a routine traffic stop being performed by the county sheriff. The rifle was lying in the back seat of his car, unloaded, in plain view, and he also declared it and the concealed carry he had; the deputy asked him for his "permit" to possess a suppressed rifle. He then showed the deputy his tax stamp form. Since his is a county where the local sheriff will not sign applications for either SBR or suppressors, his rifle is in trust, which does not require the sheriff to sign the form. The deputy, upon seeing that the form did not have the sheriff's signature, declared it invalid and was going to confiscate the rifle and take my cousin in. My cousin is a former NC ALE officer and worked closely with BATFE and knows the regs inside and out. He insisted that the deputy call both the sheriff and the BATFE officer for the area, to explain the trust registration.

So, sometimes it doesn't even help to have the form with you, if you come upon a LEO who is ignorant of the regulations.
And for them, ignorance of the law sometimes is an excuse to wrongly arrest you
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Old September 7, 2014, 12:09 AM   #23
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And for them, ignorance of the law sometimes is an excuse to wrongly arrest you
The tax stamp only helps at the prosecution phase. Arrest can and does happen with innocent people all the time or there would be little reason for courts.

There is no law that says you need to carry the form (or copy of it) with you but I have never heard of a single case where having done so had a negative effect.

I actually have multiple copies (1/4 scale), laminated, of all of them together in any bag/case one may find itself in.
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Old September 7, 2014, 12:20 PM   #24
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The tax stamp only helps at the prosecution phase. Arrest can and does happen with innocent people all the time or there would be little reason for courts.

There is no law that says you need to carry the form (or copy of it) with you but I have never heard of a single case where having done so had a negative effect.

I actually have multiple copies (1/4 scale), laminated, of all of them together in any bag/case one may find itself in.
There would be plenty of reason for courts. Even guilty people who are arrested may not be convicted if there isn't enough evidence or if evidence is deemed inadmissible. And then of course even if there is sufficient admissible evidence for a conviction somebody needs to do the sentencing and whatnot.

And of course it is entirely possible for an officer of the law to have probable cause that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed, but the person is not guilty.

Those are all different things than an officer arresting somebody because the officer believes what the person is doing is illegal when it's not.
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Old September 8, 2014, 12:02 AM   #25
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Those are all different things than an officer arresting somebody because the officer believes what the person is doing is illegal when it's not.

I don't disagree but the arrest would happen and some one would go to jail, if that happens. The difference is that they would not get convicted and go to prison.
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