Martial Artist vs Firearm

[ShaiVong]

In a thread on a different board, somebody has expressed the opinion that the only way you could use a gun vs a martial artist (within striking distance) is if your gun was already drawn and aimed. Otherwise, you have no chance whatsoever, and your gun WILL be taken from you. A skilled martial artist can disable you with bare hands as quickly as if they posessed a knife.

I disagree. I think that I could deploy my pistol and fire, even if I was struck. I have practiced drawing and firing from a close body clench while running backward, strafing and even falling on my back. The gun may be taken from me, or I may be disabled, but I WILL make some hits. If this is in my own home (i.e. you answer to the door to a punch in the face), I will empty the pistol even if I can no longer aim it at my assailent. The point being, if they get my gun they arent getting a loaded one, and I might shoot some fingers off in the process. Either way there is going to be a lot of noise which will draw a lot of attention.

What do you think? Does a moderately skilled handgun owner have any chance vs Jet Li?

[ShaiVong]

Well so far the voting is going how I expected it. Hah! Made you look!

[Treylis]

Even if I don't get a chance to fire right away, the magwell on the bottom of my pistol's grip is gonna be nasty when I hit someone on the head with it to buy some space and time. ;-)

And I wouldn't face off against Jet Li unless I was using a handgun without a super-easy-to-use takedown lever. You never know when he's going to rip the slide off your piece.

[Rotty]

Too broad of a situation, it depends on the individuals.

a non-well-trained handgunner vs a non-well-trained MA?
trained vs untrained
type of training?
etc....
given if they both had the same level of training i would say the MA would have an advantage.

[Andrew Wyatt]

this is why you carry a fixed blade knife. in addition to your pistol.

[Average Guy]

You never know when he's going to rip the slide off your piece.

It's pretty easy to do with a Beretta 92, actually. Downside is, it has to be cocked. I showed it to my wife with a demilled 92 (academy trainer) and her reaction was...

"That's nice, honey."

As far as getting the drop on anybody, check out the Retrospective video at Demi Barbito's site: http://www.demibarbito.com/retrospective.html (free streaming demo video).

About a fifth of the way in there are some very eye-opening knife vs. gun scenarios.

[Daniel Flory]

I challenge any martial artist to try it out five times with an Airsoft. I get the Airsoft, they get the mystic powers. We'll see who comes out on top Simple logic; a person who knows how to integrate hand-to-hand with weaponry trumps a person who only has hand-to-hand at their disposal.

[Wilhelm]

Yeah I got 2K for anyone who can take my fully loaded Cocked Beretta away from me.

[geekWithA.45]

My only comment is that sidearm retention continues to be a weak point in the civilian (and many other) defensive curricula.

[Don Gwinn]

IF you are aware of their presence and IF you know something about fighting with your hands, there's no way that unarmed guy has an advantage. That doesn't mean he can't win, but he has to dig out of that hole. He has to disable you with strikes or tie you up in a submission hold that keeps you from reaching your sidearm. You only need to survive the hand-to-hand long enough to get to your firearm, present it and fire at contact distance.

Now, if Silva gets close to you and starts throwing hands and knees, you might not make it, but even he doesn't have a sure thing.

Feel free to name the forum if you want. I posted at www.karateforums.com for awhile, and I saw all manner of foolishness about weapons. Those guys just hated firearms (lots of Brits) and most knew nothing about them. I was told that a firearm or knife is a disadvantage against a trained, unarmed martial artist (even in the hands of a trained MA) because the armed man will automatically become obsessed with his weapon and unable to use his other hand, feet, knees, etc. The unarmed martial artist, however, has FOUR weapons because his hands and feet are weapons. Four is more than one; thus the unarmed fighter wins.

This is not only Bull Shi Do, but also quite Mechanized Attack Squad.

[Paul Gomez]

If your gun is already "drawn and aimed" and he is within striking distance, you are a fool and will probably lose. If the fight is starting and your gun is holstered, you had better have some unarmed skills integrated with your gun skills to allow you to minimize the damage done to you while you access your pistol. A better bet would be to utilize aggressive unarmed skills first and then access the weapon if needed and use it from a locked retention position.

Remember, you want to have tryed all this stuff in training rather than attempt to spontaneously pull these abilities out of your fourth point of contact in the middle of a real world altercation.

[hillbilly]

Like someone else suggeted, there are non-lethal ways to try this one out.

Get airsoft and safety equipment and have at.

Or paintball and safety equipment.

Or simunitions (be really, really careful with that one as actual ammunition and simunitions have been mixed up before with lethal results) and safety gear and have at.

But this is a question that doesn't need to be what-iffed to death, as the technology exists for us to get a fairly realistic look at what would actually happen.

hillbilly

[zaijian]

Now, say if it was a stickemup sort of situation, that's another story.

If the gunman had a gun aimed at close proximity (say directly touching the head or torso) to a MA, then I give the MA a 75/25 chance of avoiding the first shot and grabbing the gun. Of course, if the gunman knew what he was doing, he would stay out of physical contact range anyway

[38SnubFan]

I personally think the resolution to such a problem is simple if you keep in mind some basic rules of CCW and Self-Defense:

1) Maintain observation and alertness to what is going on around you. Thus if a potential threat appears, you have time to react and in most cases, move away from the threat.

2) If moving away from the threat does not end the threat and you are forced into the "moment of truth," you should have your weapon drawn before that threat is within striking distance.

3) If your threat is agressing towards you and is likely to enter "striking distance," then you pull the trigger BEFORE the assailant has an oppurtunity to get to your weapon.

I'm sure there's plenty of scenarios where well-trained attackers "sneak up" on you and there you are, already within striking distance of your assailant. My take with Martial Artists is this though, having a couple of friends who practice the Arts and are Black Belt proficient: MA teaches you self-discipline and respect for others. I have yet to see a "true" MA start an attack. Someone who is "karate-ing" when attempting to attack you probably could be knocked down with a good punch or kick to the groin, if they're within striking distance.

Just IMHO.

[Edmond]

I dunno, remember what that little old guy did to Remo Williams?

[Ktulu]

Krav Maga teaches specific defenses for someone holding a gun on you at contact distances. I have zero experience with this but from what I've seen it looks like a practiced practitioner could easily take the gun away from a street punk.

I would assume the mileage varies as the skill and training of the gunman goes up and the skill and training of KM guy goes down.

[Correia]

The martial artist needs everything to go right. The guy with the pistol just needs to get the muzzle covering some part of thd MA's anatomy and pull the trigger.

I've known many "trained" martial artists. The ones that had a flipping clue about how the world really worked also owned and respected firearms. I've also known a few wanna be Kane from Kung Fu mystics who would be able to disable my 1911 with nothing more than the Chi. I have beaten a few of those up and taken their lunch money.

[Penforhire]

One of my favorite movie lines, from "The Killer Elite:" man holding gun watching swordsmen approaching for an honorable sword fight says, "Just let me shoot 'em."

[Ozendorph]

Shooters tend to be too confident in their ability to draw and fire accurately in a fight. Martial Artists tend to be too confident in their ability to subdue and disarm an opponent. Between TV, movies, and jawing on the internet, it is easy to lose touch with reality on these matters.

The truth is, no one is guaranteed to come out on top in a violent confrontation. There's always going to be someone bigger, faster, stronger, or quicker on the draw than you. And there's no accounting for bad luck either.

Train for every situation you can, and train realistically. Don't rely entirely on your pistol to get you out of a jam. Don't walk around thinking you're bulletproof because some guy gave you a black belt.

[Rotty]

I agree with Ozendorph,

My point is that the question laid out is too general.
It really depends on the situation and the individuals.

All the arm chairs can think what they want, but theres always a way/chance.

[bradvanhorn]

The truth is, no one is guaranteed to come out on top in a violent confrontation. There's always going to be someone bigger, faster, stronger, or quicker on the draw than you. And there's no accounting for bad luck either.

You got that right!



The question is a good one, but there are still too many unknowns to really answer the question. How close are the participants? How does the shooter present the weapon and what level of retention training does he/she have? How skilled is the martial artist?

We train close range disarm drills with training guns (that have a "click" trigger). At a range of a few feet or less, such as someone holding a gun to your head, a skilled opponent can easily deflect your gun before you can pull the trigger (the gun may go off, but the bullet will be going somewhere else). This is usually followed by some type of strike, lock, choke, throw, sweep, etc. In other words, the guy with the gun better be prepared to loose the gun and go hand-to-hand, pull a knife, or something similar.

On the other hand, if the distance between the two increases, and the shooter is ready with a good retention position, then the tables usually turn dramatically in the shooters favor.

[Mikul]

I've played this game with airsoft. When two people were less than three feet away from each other and the airsoft was drawn and pointed at the other person with the finger on the trigger, the unarmed person was able to push the gun out of the way before the armed person could react and shoot.

Everyone who tried it was able to do it and most of us have no martial arts training.

[Treylis]

It's pretty easy to do with a Beretta 92, actually. Downside is, it has to be cocked. I showed it to my wife with a demilled 92 (academy trainer) and her reaction was...

"That's nice, honey."

Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to. If you freeze-frame that movie, though, you'll see that Jet Li cheated and the takedown lever was already lowered in preparation for the move.

[Smoke]

The training I attend regularly has a little drill like this.

BG points a gun at you at contact distance and you attempt to disarm him before he can squeeze the trigger. Anyone can do it. Action is faster than reaction.

The disclaimer here is if the BG wants to shoot you he is not going to wait on you to act. Then you're just dead.

I've had my trainer disarm me while I held a pistol to his back (again at contact distance) before I could drop the hammer. I couldn't ever duplicate it. Best I could do was potentially control the weapon. This exercise required very specific things. (Point of hold, distance of attacker,)

I doubt they happen very often in the real world. But are extremely fun in training.

Smoke

[junyo]

Even if I don't get a chance to fire right away, the magwell on the bottom of my pistol's grip is gonna be nasty when I hit someone on the head with it to buy some space and time.

One of the things I love about playing Halo is your ability to pistol whip/buttstroke. I've cleared many a room without firing a shot.

People fixate on the gun as a projectile launcher and forget that most of them make handy clubs. In real life, he'd have to be a damn quick martial artist, cause I would be clubbing, kicking, punching and wrecking as much havoc as I can while trying to get space for a shot.

A better question is if you know he's a bada$$ martial artist, why did you let him get within arm's reach in the first place? the point of having the 'projectile launcher' is to be able to defend at a distance.