Ishapore 2A1

Panzerschwein · Sep 14, 2015

Hello everyone!

Well the darned Gun Broker done got me again!

This morning I won an auction for a great price, the gun is an Ishapore 2A1 which is an Indian-produced Lee-Enfield pattern rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO. These are not rechambered guns, but were made in that caliber and where the last military Lee-Enfields to be produced and they were made starting in the 1960s and ending I believe in the '70s.

I am wondering if anyone out there has an advice for a first time Lee-Enfield owner. I am brand new to the platform, but I've wanted one for years now. I just love how cool they are, but the .303 Briitish chambering always warded me off. A couple years ago, I learned of the Ishapore 2A1s and it's very neat how they are in 7.62x51mm because the local Wal-Mart has ZQI 7.62x51mm NATO for a great price and that's what I shoot in my PTR-91.

So what do you guys know about these particular Indian rifles? What advice and/or tips can you recommend to someone brand new to this weapons system? Any help would be tremendously appreciated.

Thank you!

HankC · Sep 14, 2015

Shoot 7.62x51NATO, not commercial. You will find majority of this rifle have loose chambers and headspace would be at the edge of, if not over, 308 No-Go gauge. They are combat rifles built for 7.62x51NATO round.

joem1945 · Sep 14, 2015

Some commericial may be too hot. All I use are my reloads.

Panzerschwein · Sep 14, 2015

Thanks! Yeah I have read to only use 7.62 NATO in the gun. How are these guns accuracy wise? The one I bought said that it had a nice bright bore in the ad. Do parts on these guns tend to break? Should I buy any spare parts? Do the magazine springs last a while? Sorry for all the questions!!

Jackal · Sep 14, 2015

They are absolutely not safe for use with steel cased ammo, but it already sounds like your going to use the correct chambering which is smart. Case head ruptures in a Ishy arent fun...Trust me...:banghead:

Jenrick · Sep 14, 2015

Accuracy wise, it's going to be rifle dependant. Some will do fine, others not so much. If you have one that isn't shooting well, pull off the lower handguard near the muzzle and shim it so that it's in contact with the barrel. SMLE's tend to shoot much better with a little bit of pressure on the barrel then when free floated. No clue why, but that's taken from the notes for accurizing the suckers for shooting at Bisley. Parts breakage shouldn't be an issue. In .303 british at least the trigger group should last a barrel or 2 with no problem. No idea on the magazine spring for .308, .303 magazines will outlast your ammo supply.

-Jenrick

Panzerschwein · Sep 14, 2015

Jackal said:
They are absolutely not safe for use with steel cased ammo, but it already sounds like your going to use the correct chambering which is smart. Case head ruptures in a Ishy arent fun...Trust me...:banghead:

Can you elaborate on this? That's rather worrisome!!

I'm going to stick to using either ZQI or Federal 7.62x51mm M80 ball in the rifle when I get it. After some reading, I have learned enough to not try and push it by using .308 ammo in it. But, are these guns safe to shoot? Should I check the headspace on one, where is a good place to get a 7.62x51mm gauge?

Jackal · Sep 14, 2015

Can you elaborate on this? That's rather worrisome!!

I've got an old post here on THR from several years ago. I had my very nice, proper headspace Ishy suffer a full case head separation using Tula ammo. The ammo company paid all my bills/replaced the rifle, but I still have scars/tiny chunks of steel case stuck in the flesh of my left wrist... Upon later searches online, I found I was not the only one. Bottom line, the Enfield design was not made for steel cased ammo, regardless of chambering. I was lucky I wasnt seriously wounded. Sure am glad the old war horses primarily vent ruptures out the side, rather than to the face.

While I'd never recommend NOT checking headspace on a surplus rifle, what I usually do is fire it for the first few times with heavy gloves, off to the side, with eye protection. I then check the cases for any signs of pressure, stretching, etc. The advantages of having a 50 yard range off your back porch.

Panzerschwein · Sep 15, 2015

Jackal said:
I've got an old post here on THR from several years ago. I had my very nice, proper headspace Ishy suffer a full case head separation using Tula ammo. The ammo company paid all my bills/replaced the rifle, but I still have scars/tiny chunks of steel case stuck in the flesh of my left wrist... Upon later searches online, I found I was not the only one. Bottom line, the Enfield design was not made for steel cased ammo, regardless of chambering. I was lucky I wasnt seriously wounded. Sure am glad the old war horses primarily vent ruptures out the side, rather than to the face.

While I'd never recommend NOT checking headspace on a surplus rifle, what I usually do is fire it for the first few times with heavy gloves, off to the side, with eye protection. I then check the cases for any signs of pressure, stretching, etc. The advantages of having a 50 yard range off your back porch.

So providing this rifle has proper headspace and I use the right ammo, would you say that these Indian guns are safe to shoot, or are they of poor material/build or have some other problems?

Jackal · Sep 15, 2015

Great rifles. Just dont shoot steel cased or high zoot .308 ammo and it will be good for another 100 years. You should Youtube some Enfield speed shooting. I got my first Ishy's when Aim Surplus had them for $179 with a free 140rd South African battle pack....

Panzerschwein · Sep 15, 2015

Great to hear! My gun is on it's way. The onky flaw I see in the pictures is that the magazine has some remains of badly chipped black paint they refinished these guns with. There appears to be parkerizing underneath. I think I'll remove the paint off the mag when it arrives. After a thorough cleaning, I'll hit the range and if the gun runs well, I'll be buying some accesories for it. I need the correct style sling, a correct ammo pouch, and some stripper clips that work well. Any recommendations would be appreciated!

rbernie · Sep 15, 2015

So providing this rifle has proper headspace and I use the right ammo, would you say that these Indian guns are safe to shoot, or are they of poor material/build or have some other problems?

They are crudely made but effective within their anticipated performance envelope. The build quality of most any No4Mkx is far superior to the Indian 2A, but the Indian guns do function. I was disappointed enough with the accuracy and quality and capability of mine that I sold it not soon after I got it, in favor of a K98 rebarreled to 308.

If you look at the barrel contour and such of the 2A's, you can easily see that they lack the robustness of other modern designs. I view the 2A the way that I view the small ring Mauser 308 conversions - they allow you to shoot 'almost 308' pressure rounds but they're really not spec'ed for 308 and you have no way of knowing if a given example is gonna be safe or not with 'real' 308.

VA27 · Sep 15, 2015

I had some feed problems with mine as the magazine was a loose fit. Wound up shimming the catch detent on the mag with a small sliver of brass...presto, no more feed problems!

1KPerDay · Sep 17, 2015

Yep, don't shoot steel in it. Brass cased 7.62 is fine. Great rifles.

Here's a 3-gun I shot with mine... I didn't do well but you might enjoy it anyway.

https://youtu.be/LLCRkzY4fWw

Panzerschwein · Sep 17, 2015

Very cool! Not really set up for a leftie I can see though LOL!

GBExpat · Sep 18, 2015

Congrats on the new rifle, Cooldill! I hope that you enjoy the type as much as I do.

I bought 2 of the 2As in Summer'06 after they suddenly appeared in the milsurp market. I received one/each early and late production rifles. They were priced at $180/ea.

They arrived with the exterior metal (and some of the wood) crudely & heavily slathered with what looked like cheap black enamel paint.

Both cleaned up very well and proved to be very accurate rifles. Both of the bores were mirror-bright and gauged as new (~.300" & ~.2995", IIRC).

All that I will shoot in a 2A is 7.62x51 milsurp Ball.

FWIW.

Kilroy Was Here · Sep 18, 2015

Congrats on the new acquisition. I owned an Ishapore, but foolishly sold it some time ago. I now own an Enfield no.4 mk.I with an absolute mint bore (which I purchased after to re-kindle my love for the Enfield-type action). Anyway I would echo what others have said, the Ishapore is a great rifle and was purpose built by the Indian army (not converted to 7.62 as people once thought). In regard to to your rifle, do you know if all the serial numbers match? I would hesitate to strip the paint from your magazine... Or from any other part of the gun as I think that detracts from its collectibility. Be careful when cleaning your magazine not to bend your feed lips as enfields can be somewhat picky in feeding if anything is bent, etc. Enjoy the gun!

Kilroy Was Here · Sep 18, 2015

Cooldill said:
So providing this rifle has proper headspace and I use the right ammo, would you say that these Indian guns are safe to shoot, or are they of poor material/build or have some other problems?

I have actually heard that the metallurgy on Ishapore's is quite good...this is information I have gleaned from other forums and also this one....search "Ishapore 2a Metalurgy Question". In other words the action was purposefully built stronger to deal with higher pressures inherent with 7.62. Just stick to premium brass 7.62/308 ammo and you should be fine.

Panzerschwein · Sep 18, 2015

Kilroy Was Here said:
Congrats on the new acquisition. I owned an Ishapore, but foolishly sold it some time ago. I now own an Enfield no.4 mk.I with an absolute mint bore (which I purchased after to re-kindle my love for the Enfield-type action). Anyway I would echo what others have said, the Ishapore is a great rifle and was purpose built by the Indian army (not converted to 7.62 as people once thought). In regard to to your rifle, do you know if all the serial numbers match? I would hesitate to strip the paint from your magazine... Or from any other part of the gun as I think that detracts from its collectibility. Be careful when cleaning your magazine not to bend your feed lips as enfields can be somewhat picky in feeding if anything is bent, etc. Enjoy the gun!

Well to be polite I didn't buy it as a collectible, I bought it as a shooter. I don't think cleaning what little remains of the black paint off the parkerized reciever would do any damage to the gun or it's value, and would make it look nicer in fact. All serial numbers match except the magazine (I think, gun still hasn't gotten here yet).

As for ammo, I'll be shooting ZQI 7.62x51mm NATO ball 147 grain in the rifle, I can get it at Wal-Mart for $9.99 and it runs wonderfully in my PTR-91. No need to look further for ammo IMO!

GBExpat · Sep 19, 2015

Kilroy Was Here said:
... I would hesitate to strip the paint from your magazine... Or from any other part of the gun as I think that detracts from its collectibility. ...

Yes, there were a couple of the fellows in forums back in '06 that expressed this view ... even though the safety lever was slather-painted in a frozen position. That paint was obviously a cheap, expedient approach to preventing corrosion during storage on the sub-continent and was to be completely removed if the arms were re-issued.

I figured that the "leave the horrible crappy paint job on them for collectibility" view was only valid for those who had zero intention of ever shooting the rifles and only bought them to store for now and sell at a later date.

35 Whelen · Sep 19, 2015

Several years ago I had a C&R and boy did I put it to good use! Included in my purchases were three Ishapore 2A's. If memory serves they were on sale at AIM Surplus for the princely sum of three for $300.

The first thing you need to know regards the ammunition. There is no practical difference in the .308 Winchester and the 7.62x51. Anyone who thinks there is, please go HERE and read the posts by ganderite. Very professionally articulated information that should put the 308 Winchester vs. 7.62x51 issue to rest. Now, on to the rifles!

I personally think they're of good quality and nothing about the three I owned led me to believe otherwise. No, they're not Winchesters, Rugers, or Remingtons, but they seem to be fairly well built. If I were you, I'd head over to the Surplus Rifle Forum and peruse the Lee Enfield
section for more information.

I agree regarding the paint. Collectible rifles are for museums. I buy them to shoot. As such I gleefully stripped the paint off my Ishy's. Ultimately I home-Parkerized them which made for a very nice looking rifle. I actually did this in steps, doing one rifle at a time so I could illustrate the differences.
Here are some pics that show this progress:

As purchased-

Stripped-

Parkerized-

All three-

I think they'd make fine utility type rifles. My plan was to keep one and sell the others off so two of them went and I bought a receiver sight to mount to the remaining one. Well, I came to the realization that I already had a utility-type Scout rifle in .308 and my interests abruptly took a turn so I sold them all.

Hope you enjoy yours!

35W

GBExpat · Sep 19, 2015

I found a pic of my pair of 2As. No close-ups, unfortunately, but I think that the difference is apparent.

Top: Before
Bottom: After cleaning off the paint and cleaning&oiling the wood.

Kilroy Was Here · Sep 19, 2015

Cooldill said:
Well to be polite I didn't buy it as a collectible, I bought it as a shooter. I don't think cleaning what little remains of the black paint off the parkerized reciever would do any damage to the gun or it's value, and would make it look nicer in fact. All serial numbers match except the magazine (I think, gun still hasn't gotten here yet).

As for ammo, I'll be shooting ZQI 7.62x51mm NATO ball 147 grain in the rifle, I can get it at Wal-Mart for $9.99 and it runs wonderfully in my PTR-91. No need to look further for ammo IMO!

Great! Enjoy shooting the Ishapore. I should start using some of that ZQI in my PTR...using Hirtenberger right now.
My best

Kilroy Was Here · Sep 19, 2015

35 Whelen said:
Several years ago I had a C&R and boy did I put it to good use! Included in my purchases were three Ishapore 2A's. If memory serves they were on sale at AIM Surplus for the princely sum of three for $300.

The first thing you need to know regards the ammunition. There is no practical difference in the .308 Winchester and the 7.62x51. Anyone who thinks there is, please go HERE and read the posts by ganderite. Very professionally articulated information that should put the 308 Winchester vs. 7.62x51 issue to rest. Now, on to the rifles!

I personally think they're of good quality and nothing about the three I owned led me to believe otherwise. No, they're not Winchesters, Rugers, or Remingtons, but they seem to be fairly well built. If I were you, I'd head over to the Surplus Rifle Forum and peruse the Lee Enfield
section for more information.

I agree regarding the paint. Collectible rifles are for museums. I buy them to shoot. As such I gleefully stripped the paint off my Ishy's. Ultimately I home-Parkerized them which made for a very nice looking rifle. I actually did this in steps, doing one rifle at a time so I could illustrate the differences.
Here are some pics that show this progress:

As purchased-

Stripped-

Parkerized-

All three-

I think they'd make fine utility type rifles. My plan was to keep one and sell the others off so two of them went and I bought a receiver sight to mount to the remaining one. Well, I came to the realization that I already had a utility-type Scout rifle in .308 and my interests abruptly took a turn so I sold them all.

Hope you enjoy yours!

35W

You guys have great looking Ishapore's and I happen to think the paint stripped does look good. I suppose I am basing my opinion on the Ishapore I owned which actually had a very nice even (not chipped) coat of paint and I happened to like the way it looked...just my opinion! Moreover, I would respectfully disagree with the quote, "Collectible rifles are for museums." I feel as though plenty of individuals (including myself) seek out and collect rifles and pistols that are in their original format, and quite collectible....and still shoot same guns on a semi-regular basis. Again, I completely understand the mindset of procuring weapons in a non-collectibility stand point...everyone has their own tastes and directions in life!

GBExpat · Sep 19, 2015

Kilroy Was Here said:
... I suppose I am basing my opinion on the Ishapore I owned which actually had a very nice even (not chipped) coat of paint and I happened to like the way it looked...

That leaves me wondering if they finished some of these rifles with Suncorite, or something close to it. It is certainly possible, I suppose.

... I feel as though plenty of individuals (including myself) seek out and collect rifles and pistols that are in their original format, and quite collectible....and still shoot same guns on a semi-regular basis. ...

I am one of those that seeks out collects & regularly shoots milsurps that are in their original condition. I have quite a number of them. Right place, right time kinda thing.

I, however, do not consider the horrible cheap black enamel paint that I have seen slathered on many of these rifles to represent their "original condition/format". I consider "original condition/format" to be as they originally left the factory.

Some later historical alterations I would leave untouched, like the painted band on some .30-06 Lend Lease rifles, but not a poorly applied "storage" coat of cheap black paint like this.

I also do not take the whole "original condition" thing to extremes, like losing sleep over refreshing an M1 stock with BLO rather than RLO.

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