Most authentic SAA clone?

Driftwood Johnson · Dec 5, 2015

I shoot NCOWS which is the most PC of CAS and like my gear to be historically accurate.

I hope you are saying Period Correct (which is a term I really dislike) and not Politically Correct.

And I hope you are not saying my Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three, made in 1882, and my Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army, made sometime between 1880 and 1883 are somehow not historically accurate representatives of firearms made in the 19th Century. The Smith is chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge and the MH is chambered for 44-40, and of course I only shoot them with Black Powder. This photo was taken at the start of the SASS New Hampshire State championship match this past summer.

0New%20MOdel%20Number%20Three%20and%20Merwin%20Hulbert%20Pocket%20Army%20half%20size_zpsvowqtqah.jpg

My point is that there are some of us in the Single Action Shooting Society who are every bit as concerned with the historical accuracy of our firearms as those who shoot in NCOWS, without getting snooty about it. The reason I don't shoot NCOWS is because there are no NCOWS events within hundreds of miles of where I live. SASS is a much bigger organization and I can shoot SASS events within less than an hour of where I live.

BSA1 · Dec 5, 2015

Cooldill,

Since your main goal is a period correct Old West gun the most common handgun at least from 1860’s to 1880’s were Colt Conversion 1851 and 1860 revolvers and deserve consideration.

After the Civil War ended there were 10’s of thousands cap & ball blackpowder revolvers left over. Unlike what would probably happen today they were not dumped in the ocean or cut up. Many of these guns found their way home in the hands of discharged soldiers. Former Confederate soldiers were allowed to keep their firearms.

The late 1860’s and the 1870’s were a period of rapid development of self-contained cartridge ammunition. This started during the Civil War with 22 Rimfire and 44 Rimfire for the Henry rifle. As the technology improved the advantages of cartridge ammunition were obvious over loose powder, bullet and cap.

However after the Civil War hard cash was very hard to come by. The nation went into a economic depression. Buying a new handgun such as a Colt SAA for $20.00 was beyond the means of many folks. However there was the 1851 or 1860 c&b revolver from the Civil War that was in good working order so it didn’t take long for the idea of converting c&b revolvers to use cartridges. Colt figured out how to do this and converted revolvers sent back to the factory for many years. As I recall without looking it up Colt would convert a Navy or Army c&b for $2.50.

Many of these guns found their way West during the Western expansion of the frontier.

Very few people were gunfighters so these Conversions served the average person well. Today there are authentic well-made copies offered by Cimarron including the Open Top model which is considered as a transition model from cab & ball to the Colt SAA. The Models offered today include the Open Top in 38 Special to the 1860 Richard-Masons in 45 Colt.

A pair of Cimarron 1860 Richard-Masons with 8" barrels and chambered in 44 Colt.

BSA1 · Dec 5, 2015

Holsters were much different also. They were basically pouches designed to protect the handgun from the weather and to avoid losing it by it falling out of the holster. This is a accurate period correct holster I had made that I saw in the book "Packing Iron."

BSA1 · Dec 5, 2015

My point is that there are some of us in the Single Action Shooting Society who are every bit as concerned with the historical accuracy of our firearms as those who shoot in NCOWS, without getting snooty about it. The reason I don't shoot NCOWS is because there are no NCOWS events within hundreds of miles of where I live. SASS is a much bigger organization and I can shoot SASS events within less than an hour of where I live.

I agree.

There is no rule against shooting period correct firearms with real gunpowder in SASS. In SASS you are only shooting against yourself. Many of us enjoy the handicaps of shooting the same reproduction firearms and holsters from a century and half ago.

I might consider shooting NCOWS if there was one close by but I am wary of clubs whose members are "Thread Counters."

CraigC · Dec 5, 2015

Since your main goal is a period correct Old West gun the most common handgun at least from 1860’s to 1880’s were Colt Conversion 1851 and 1860 revolvers and deserve consideration.

Yep! Cartridge conversions were a whole lot cheaper than a brand new SAA. Not sure about the original price of the Open Top cartridge model. I've got an 1860 Richards Type II and an Open Top. Need to stop farting around and get 1851 and 1860 Richards-Mason conversions as well.

Armybrat · Dec 5, 2015

My Colt 3rd Generation SAA made in 1979 is a pretty good clone of the 1st Generation Peacemaker except for the cylinder bushing:

Panzerschwein · Dec 5, 2015

BSA1 said:
Cooldill,

Since your main goal is a period correct Old West gun the most common handgun at least from 1860’s to 1880’s were Colt Conversion 1851 and 1860 revolvers and deserve consideration.

After the Civil War ended there were 10’s of thousands cap & ball blackpowder revolvers left over. Unlike what would probably happen today they were not dumped in the ocean or cut up. Many of these guns found their way home in the hands of discharged soldiers. Former Confederate soldiers were allowed to keep their firearms.

The late 1860’s and the 1870’s were a period of rapid development of self-contained cartridge ammunition. This started during the Civil War with 22 Rimfire and 44 Rimfire for the Henry rifle. As the technology improved the advantages of cartridge ammunition were obvious over loose powder, bullet and cap.

However after the Civil War hard cash was very hard to come by. The nation went into a economic depression. Buying a new handgun such as a Colt SAA for $20.00 was beyond the means of many folks. However there was the 1851 or 1860 c&b revolver from the Civil War that was in good working order so it didn’t take long for the idea of converting c&b revolvers to use cartridges. Colt figured out how to do this and converted revolvers sent back to the factory for many years. As I recall without looking it up Colt would convert a Navy or Army c&b for $2.50.

Many of these guns found their way West during the Western expansion of the frontier.

Very few people were gunfighters so these Conversions served the average person well. Today there are authentic well-made copies offered by Cimarron including the Open Top model which is considered as a transition model from cab & ball to the Colt SAA. The Models offered today include the Open Top in 38 Special to the 1860 Richard-Masons in 45 Colt.

A pair of Cimarron 1860 Richard-Masons with 8" barrels and chambered in 44 Colt.

Oh man, yes I've been thinking about an Uberti 1851 Navy conversion in .38 special as well... lord knows I've got enough .38 shells laying around!! It would also make a great companion to my Cimarron 1851 Navy .36 percussion revolver that I love.

You guys are a big help, and even bigger "enablers" LOL!

Panzerschwein · Dec 5, 2015

So... I think this might be my Huckleberry:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ca...model-p-5-1-2-45-lc-5-1-2-in-model-mp513.html

It's a Cimarron Old Model P with 5 1/2" barrel in .45 Colt with the standard blue finish. So you all are saying this is about as close as I'd get within my budget to a real 1870's era Colt SAA? I know I'll have to cut down the basepin to restore the look and function. I also plan to get a tuning job for the gun, no light springs or anything but just a trigger job and adjustment to the mechanism if needed etc.

Is there anything else I can do to this gun to get it more like the genuine article? All of your knowledge and help is so greatly appreciated!!

Bama Drifter · Dec 5, 2015

looking good...

Driftwood, that Amoskeag link to a Nettleton inspected Colt was like a link to the Holy Grail! If it were an Ainsworth (Custer SN range) gun in that condition would it have been six figures instead of five? Wow, gotta catch my breath!

OP, you've been given excellent advice. I would add that NO Uberti or Pieta that I've handled has ever had a transfer bar safety. Your best value is the Cimarron of choice or a Taylor's that has been tuned already...

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/tayl...fancy-checkered-walnut-grip-model-555130.html

Cowhide Cliff · Dec 5, 2015

Driftwood Johnson said:
I hope you are saying Period Correct (which is a term I really dislike) and not Politically Correct.

And I hope you are not saying my Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three, made in 1882, and my Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army, made sometime between 1880 and 1883 are somehow not historically accurate representatives of firearms made in the 19th Century. The Smith is chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge and the MH is chambered for 44-40, and of course I only shoot them with Black Powder. This photo was taken at the start of the SASS New Hampshire State championship match this past summer.

My point is that there are some of us in the Single Action Shooting Society who are every bit as concerned with the historical accuracy of our firearms as those who shoot in NCOWS, without getting snooty about it. The reason I don't shoot NCOWS is because there are no NCOWS events within hundreds of miles of where I live. SASS is a much bigger organization and I can shoot SASS events within less than an hour of where I live.

I'm not sure where you get anyone saying your S&W or Merwin Hubert are not historically accurate, period correct, whatever you want to call it when this entire discussion was about SAA clones. I also never said there weren't SASS members that take it serious either. But I can tell you since I have shot both most SASS members are not with their short strokes and tuned Rugers which is what the original poster was trying to avoid.

The OP just mentioned he didn't want that implying CAS being non authentic and I merely pointed out that some CAS does care about authenticity.

Cowhide Cliff · Dec 5, 2015

Cooldill said:
So... I think this might be my Huckleberry:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ca...model-p-5-1-2-45-lc-5-1-2-in-model-mp513.html

It's a Cimarron Old Model P with 5 1/2" barrel in .45 Colt with the standard blue finish. So you all are saying this is about as close as I'd get within my budget to a real 1870's era Colt SAA? I know I'll have to cut down the basepin to restore the look and function. I also plan to get a tuning job for the gun, no light springs or anything but just a trigger job and adjustment to the mechanism if needed etc.

Is there anything else I can do to this gun to get it more like the genuine article? All of your knowledge and help is so greatly appreciated!!

That's a good one there. If you want it the most authentic in finish then you would want to order it with Cimarron's US finish which is real bone and charcoal case coloring.

I have a few guns of their with the US finish, very nice but adds quite a few bucks to the cost.

Driftwood Johnson · Dec 5, 2015

The Beretta Stampede is not a SAA type gun either. It has a transfer bar like a Ruger.

With all due respect, your comments about what is a SAA type gun and what is not are condescending. What is a 'SAA type gun' is open to interpretation. You can't tell a Beretta Stampede from any other SAA replica from across the room. You can't see the transfer bar, it is totally inside the gun.

As for a Ruger, even though I can spot a Ruger from across the room, many shooters cannot. On the outside, the Ruger Vaquero is a very credible replica of the SAA. Without close inspection, the giveaways are two pins instead of three screws, and the profile of the trigger. With my bad eyesight I probably can't tell the difference on the range. Inside, yes, very different. Outside, not so much.

Panzerschwein · Dec 5, 2015

Thanks so much gang. I am more interested in a SAA copy that is as close as I can get within my budget inside and out, so that rules out the Ruger as it is not a true Colt action even though they are nice guns. Also, the Ruger doesn't load the same as a true SAA.

I'm not looking for the most durable, most reliable, most accurate, and certainly not the most modern... I'm looking for what the real cowboys used.

Panzerschwein · Dec 5, 2015

Cowhide Cliff said:
That's a good one there. If you want it the most authentic in finish then you would want to order it with Cimarron's US finish which is real bone and charcoal case coloring.

I have a few guns of their with the US finish, very nice but adds quite a few bucks to the cost.

Thanks! I tried looking on their website, but didn't see the old model frame offered with the "US finish".

I did some research on that finish, and it appears that Cimarron has Doug Turnbull case harden the frame, and then the gun also gets an action job from Turnbull. That right there might be the ticket.

Jim K · Dec 5, 2015

If one is talking about the numbers, none of those guns, except maybe unconverted percussions, would quality. Most folks made a dollar or so a day. A cowboy made $.50 a day, meals and a spot in the bunkhouse. Those $15 and $20 guns were far out of the reach of most budgets. The most common guns in the Old West were cheap solid frame .32 and .38 revolvers, with breaktops in the same calibers running second later on. Some folks could spring for an S&W or a Colt, but SAA's were not common. (They only made some 190,000 up to 1900 and 37,000 of those went to the Army. Not enough to arm every male citizen - and some females - west of the Mississippi!)

Nor did every cowboy carry a gun. In fact, some ranches prohibited their hands from carrying any gun. If necessary, the ranch had rifles available for issue if wild animals (two or four legged) were bothering anyone.

Jim

CraigC · Dec 5, 2015

Anybody know what the upcharge is for the "US finish"?

Cowhide Cliff · Dec 5, 2015

I thought they had the US finish listed but after checking the website it appears they don't. I guess you have to call or check with a dealer.

It's been a couple years since I got any revolvers with the finish and can't remember.

Cooldill, I believe the US finish is done by Classic Guns LTD. I have also used them myself and their work is top notch and were great to deal with.

shootniron · Dec 5, 2015

Driftwood Johnson

With all due respect, your comments about what is a SAA type gun and what is not are condescending. What is a 'SAA type gun' is open to interpretation. You can't tell a Beretta Stampede from any other SAA replica from across the room. You can't see the transfer bar, it is totally inside the gun.

With all due respect, the Stampede is not the same "type" gun as a SAA clone...it is the same style...but not the same type.

Look up the definition of type and style...the Stampede is "styled" like a SAA but it's action is a different "type"...so Cowhide Cliff is correct in his statement...the Stampede is not the same type gun.

CraigC · Dec 5, 2015

The Stampede uses traditional lockwork with a transfer bar added. It operates like a Colt. It's much closer to the original than the Ruger New Model lockwork. More similar to a converted Ruger Old Model.

35 Whelen · Dec 6, 2015

Cooldill said:
So... I think this might be my Huckleberry:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ca...model-p-5-1-2-45-lc-5-1-2-in-model-mp513.html

It's a Cimarron Old Model P with 5 1/2" barrel in .45 Colt with the standard blue finish. So you all are saying this is about as close as I'd get within my budget to a real 1870's era Colt SAA? I know I'll have to cut down the basepin to restore the look and function. I also plan to get a tuning job for the gun, no light springs or anything but just a trigger job and adjustment to the mechanism if needed etc.

Is there anything else I can do to this gun to get it more like the genuine article? All of your knowledge and help is so greatly appreciated!!

That is exactly what I have in .44 Special. Great revolver and only $449.00 SHIPPED at Bud's!

35W

Cowhide Cliff · Dec 6, 2015

Driftwood Johnson said:
With all due respect, your comments about what is a SAA type gun and what is not are condescending. What is a 'SAA type gun' is open to interpretation. You can't tell a Beretta Stampede from any other SAA replica from across the room. You can't see the transfer bar, it is totally inside the gun.

As for a Ruger, even though I can spot a Ruger from across the room, many shooters cannot. On the outside, the Ruger Vaquero is a very credible replica of the SAA. Without close inspection, the giveaways are two pins instead of three screws, and the profile of the trigger. With my bad eyesight I probably can't tell the difference on the range. Inside, yes, very different. Outside, not so much.

You cock that hammer sir and I can tell you from thirty feet away that is not a SAA action. No firing pin on the hammer.

So it might be styled like a SAA but it does not have a SAA type action.

From your definition the Colt Cowboy is a Single Action Army. Maybe you should tell Colt they were wrong in coming up with a new name for that gun. Apparently Colt has the same interpretation as I do, so tell them they were wrong.

35 Whelen · Dec 6, 2015

In my opinion, the Rugers Vaqueros can easily be spotted because, thanks to the transfer bar, when the hammer is not cocked, the trigger sits near the center of the trigger guard and more importantly Ruger chose to use what I assume a stainless steel trigger, which IMHO on a blue revolver is borderline tacky. Sort of like something Baikal puts on their shotguns.

I bought a Ruger New Vaquero 45 Colt with the intention of hunting with it. For a period of a few months I shot it almost daily testing loads and practicing. It just never felt the same as an identically configured Uberti (4 3/4" bbl.) So for grins I weighed them on my shipping scales and found why. The Ruger was almost 10% (3 oz.) heavier.

Regarding CAS and firearms used, I competed at a local club for awhile and it was thoroughly enjoyable and lit an inextinguishable fire in me for old Colt and Winchester firearms. However, I never could get used to seeing people compete with SS Vaquero's and the like.

Now that I have a couple of original Winchester '73's, a brace of original Colt Bisley's, and am dabbling in loading black powder, the NCOW faction is looking a little appealing to me.

35W

Driftwood Johnson · Dec 6, 2015

Oh my

I never said the action inside a Ruger was the same as in a Colt.

I said 'Inside, yes, very different. Outside, not so much.'

I believe I already mentioned the profile of the trigger is one of the spotting differences. I didn't mention why it was different, because of the extra travel the trigger needs in order to make the transfer bar function.

I have taken my share of Rugers apart, both New Models and the old Three Screw models and I am very aware of the differences between them and a Colt. I could probably write a book about it.

First Generation Bisley Colt SAA

Second Generation Colt SAA

Three Screw Flat Top Blackhawk

Oops, looks like I don't have a photo of a Vaquero broken down. You'll just have to take my word for it that I know the insides of a New Model Ruger very well.

And excuse me very much but when I am spotting at a CAS match, and the shooter is blazing through the stage, shooting much faster than I can, I really can't see if there is a firing pin mounted on the hammer or not. I challenge anybody to be able to see that, it is a blur. At the loading or unloading table I can tell. Most Ruger shooters don't have to put their guns at half cock to load or unload unless they have installed half cock hammers like I have. With the half cock hammers, they load just like a Colt.

Half Cock Hammer in an 'old model' Vaquero.

Regarding the Stainless Rugers, when they first came out they were a matte finish. But very soon Ruger realized that by putting a high polish on the Stainless they resembled nickel plated guns. And there were plenty of nickel plated Colts made in the 19th Century. As a matter of fact, with the small 32 and 38 caliber Top Breaks, Smith and Wesson sold more plated with nickel than blued.

shootr · Dec 6, 2015

This has been a very informative thread -thanks to all who have contributed!

Now I want one of those 5 1/2 Taylor's in .45!!

Tallball · Dec 6, 2015

Great thread! I have truly enjoyed it.

Here is a bad picture of mine. It is a JP Sauer and Sohn 44 magnum made in West Germany... in the early 1970's, IIRC. I got it for $299. Someone shot it a LOT before I got it, but it still functions well. I normally use 44 specials so as to not put much strain on it. If it had better sights I am sure I could shoot it just as well as my Rugers. I like the SAA "clones". Sometimes it seems strange to cock a Ruger and not hear enough clicks.

Most authentic SAA clone?

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