Smart Guns and problems with carry outside the home

People, people, people! Get over the reprogramming and hacking thing. The electronics are IRRELEVANT!

These are electro-mechanical devices. Once the electro is removed, destroyed, punched out with a hammer you are left with a MECHANICAL device! Anyone who has the firearm and a few spare minutes can set the mechanical to work without the electronics.

The devices are good for preventing immediate use by unauthorized persons as long as the activating part is secured, but beyond that they are vulnerable. Smart guns will not deter theft or curious youngsters with an ounce of intelligence.

I expect that once any of these devices come to market Youtube will be flooded with videos on the details of how to eliminate (not hack or reprogram) the electronics and work the mechanical linkage.

Personally, I prefer taking active steps to secure firearms in a standard safe and have total control over my firearm at all times.

Sure, the 'smart tech' would be relatively easy to defeat, but they could just make it illegal to do so, just like making a firearm full auto in your garage. BUT, that STILL won't stop criminals from doing what they want...

1. Does the finger print reader work through foreign substances... like blood?
2. Can an RF sensor be disabled remotely?

No sale.

I have an idea:

Let COPS use them first.

The Fraternal Order of Police will make that about as likely as a chit'lin stand next to the Kabaa during the Hajj...

So much said on this topic but I'd like to weigh in as well. I have no problem with the creation and manufacture of smart gun technology, provided that there are not laws created mandating its presence in firearms. I think overall that there are probably many people who would like such a thing and have no issue with them owning such weapons.

For me though I will never purchase one. Should they become the only product sold then I will simply have to be happy with the weapons I already own.

I don't like the idea of a weapon that requires me to wear a specific piece of jewelry. It essentially limits the weapon's use to "who has the watch/ring, etc." and I would rather all my weapons be usable by whoever might need them at that moment.

Fingerprint scanners are IMO useless. I am an RN who accesses a biometric (fingerprint) medication safe many times every shift at work. I've learned that these scanners are slow, very picky, and fail quite a bit for stupid reasons. And these are the industrial grade ones which are not space limited. I wouldn't trust one to work reliably, every time, in a second or less, because quite frankly they don't.

I'm also never going to allow an RFID implant in my hand. Partly for the same reason as the jewelry but also for other reasons.

Overall I think the technology is interesting and I'm okay with it's development. But I'll stick to my "dumb guns" and continue to secure them in the same way I always have which allows quick access by all the people who need them and has always done a great job of protecting them from small children.

HELLO! Is anyone listening?

SOME OF US DON'T HAVE FINGERPRINTS.

Then you'll have the option of using the one that uses a ring.

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That depends on who is listening. I can't use luggage lockers at the airport because there is no one in the airport management bright enough to step outside the box and check the premise of using fingerprint ID for the locks. I can see the same thing happening with smart guns as I don't see politicians extending themselves to think outside their box.

Moot, though, unless they are mandated as electronics aren't worth my time or money.

The Fraternal Order of Police will make that about as likely as a chit'lin stand next to the Kabaa during the Hajj...

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That. Was. Funny....

Guy B. Meredith said:

These are electro-mechanical devices. Once the electro is removed, destroyed, punched out with a hammer you are left with a MECHANICAL device! Anyone who has the firearm and a few spare minutes can set the mechanical to work without the electronics.

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Right, electro-mechanical devices.

But you are assuming the electrical device will be an add-on and can be easily removed or by-passed.

I suspect that the electrical part will be an integral part of the system and the gun will not work without all the original components in place, both electrical and mechanical.

Also, I suspect the government will make it illegal for a gunsmith to disable the smart technology similar to what has been done with some of the safety features on cars.

That does not mean changes won't be made on a black market basis but getting a gun modified will not be just plunking down some cash with any "ole gunsmith".

I have no doubt that smart guns will be with us at some point. I just hope it will take a very, very long time.

cfullgraf said:

Right, electro-mechanical devices.

But you are assuming the electrical device will be an add-on and can be easily removed or by-passed.

I suspect that the electrical part will be an integral part of the system and the gun will not work without all the original components in place, both electrical and mechanical.

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It still ends up with a firing pin hitting a primer. Say you make the gun have an electronic trigger that sends a signal to the security chip that then operates a solenoid that hits the firing pin. That's about the minimum of mechanical items that will work with current ammo. How hard would it be to circumvent all the electronic security between the trigger and the solenoid and just hard-wire the thing?

The reason it's easy to have a phone that must have a fingerprint scan to work is because a phone is a complex mechanical device that really does nothing without those little electrons. Everything it does relies on electricity. A gun is very different.

But you are assuming the electrical device will be an add-on and can be easily removed or by-passed.

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Nope. I'm assuming it is an integral part. I've worked with electro-mechanical devices.

This is a very generic description, but I don't expect anything novel to show up.

In an electro-mechanical device there is a controller or sensor that senses whatever is supposed to activate the mechanism. When it senses the correct input it runs an electric current through conductors to a solenoid, wheel on motor or whatever to move something into position to permit or block the movement of the action.

The overall design can vary, may have shielding to make access difficult or some such, but in the end some link in the firing mechanism is being inserted or removed to control fire. There should be little problem in positioning the link to allow the firearm to fire and making that position permanent.

Some designs may be complex enough that the link needs to be replaced either because removing the controller removes an anchor point or some other similar issue.

If anyone finds smart guns profitable enough to put on the market, look to Youtube for the fixes. Even if the owner doesn't want to disable the "smart", other do have an interest in defeating it.

Caliper_RWVA has it right about rewiring. See my signature.

But the upside of smart guns is that they will be pretty bling that might attract the smart phone crowd and increase firearms ownership. On the downside we would need to make sure they handle smart guns more responsibly than they do smart phones and texting.

I won't even store my guns, especially the ones used for defensive purposes in anything electronic. The failure rate is too high in my opinion, and that is a much easier environment than a carry weapon will be in. No Thanks.

"But the upside of smart guns is that they will be pretty bling that might attract the smart phone crowd and increase firearms ownership"
The Armatix actually was a pretty cool looking gun (if only the context of the thing hadn't been so hideous) and would have appealed to the gadget crowd in a big way.

I'm still waiting on a clever company to start marketing 'smart gun tech' as a buzzword for features that have nothing to do with the trigger system. Let us beat the anti's at their own game for once, and use their stupid buzzwords into uselessness. A mag floorplate that measures spring tension & rounds fired, that lights up when certain limits are exceeded to call for maintenance/replacement. A laser sight that is automatically activated by deactivation of the safety or when removed from a holster. A compact carry gun offered with an integral reflex sight, which can be charged via USB from the holster (or even better wirelessly). A replacement rifle trigger whose weight, travel, and other features can be adjusted on the fly electronically (but still a mechanical trigger). Heck, even triggers that detect the onset of a flinch and immediately reduce the additional travel needed to fire the gun to zero, to mitigate the shift in aim during defensive or hunting scenarios. To be honest, a gunsafe (or any safe/lock) that texts you when accessed is not exactly a worthless idea, either.

Many possibilities out there for gun friendly 'smart gun' technology. No reason at all we should allow the conversation to be limited to immoral lock-out provision nonsense.

TCB

Actually not a bad idea to preempt the opposition, barnbwt, but someone else will have to do the buying.

I'm sure there are at least two whole generations that would buy into those ideas, but I wouldn't buy into a single one. I even hate the thought of buying a new car because I don't want to pay for all the tech that polls show is not used by at least 40% of car owners.

A reflex sight is about as far as I'd go.

It might not surprise you to learn that I do not have and will not have a smart phone, pad, tablet and have turned off texting and all other features on my clam shell cell phone.

The bad guy can't shoot you with your own gun.

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RF-enabled guns like the Armatix could likely be used by an assailant at contact distance, I'd think, given the likely hand positions. Most any gun that depended on a RF signal from worn jewelry could be fired back at the authorized user in a grapple, just not from multiple feet away.

I may have missed it, BUT has anyone ever dropped a laptop computer on a tile floor or down a flight of stairs or propped a cell phone into a sink or toilet? I haven’t, but I’ve worked with a lot people who have.

I couldn't care less if smart guns come to market. I'm perfectly happy with the status of my safe, and if I never bought another gun, I'd get by just fine.

If smart guns were not made mandatory I believe the market place will be the deciding factor .

joem1945 said:

If congress mandates "Smart Guns", then the first people that must be made to use them should be the secret service bodyguards (FOR THE PRES), SWAT/HRT and finally the police. If that tech is good for them then it's good for me. Otherwise STUFF IT!!!!!

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I don't care if they all use...it would still be incredibly wrong to mandate them to the public/citizens, and should never happen. Period.

Now, if all of the above use them, and are happy with them, and they work, there would be a market with private citizens who CHOOSE to buy some.

Warp said:

I don't care if they all use...it would still be incredibly wrong to mandate them to the public/citizens, and should never happen. Period.

Now, if all of the above use them, and are happy with them, and they work, there would be a market with private citizens who CHOOSE to buy some.

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I'm sure we can come up with other times where similar tactics have been used to push an idea onto the population by the .gov.

Incandescent bulbs, healthcare, ...what else?

Apachedriver said:

I'm sure we can come up with other times where similar tactics have been used to push an idea onto the population by the .gov.

Incandescent bulbs, healthcare, ...what else?

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What? I'm not talking about pushing an "idea" and getting people to like something there. I am talking about what I said and what I replied to which is "mandating" them (them meaning smart guns). Regardless of who else uses them or how well they work for those other people, they should never be mandated to the public/private citizens, period. Nothings whatsoever to do with incandescent bulbs or whatever.