New dual mode trigger system BATF approved !!

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That isn't firing out of battery, he's just outrunning the gun and getting hammer follow. (Firing out of battery would require a malfunction in the BCG) As he said, just slow down. Your finger only needs to move at half the speed as a standard trigger.
 
One more thing for the gun control crowd to pounce on. Not that they constitutionally should have an inch of ground to stand on... but it just attracts more attention. I don't think we need that attention right now.
 
Caliper_RWVA said:
That isn't firing out of battery, he's just outrunning the gun and getting hammer follow. (Firing out of battery would require a malfunction in the BCG) As he said, just slow down. Your finger only needs to move at half the speed as a standard trigger.
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I should have been more clear. It is trying to fire out of battery but not hitting the primer hard enough. Nevertheless unpredictability is not a good thing in a gun.

Mike
 
Well you're probably right for the most part Sam1911, but we all know how the media works. I know plenty of right leaning folks who've become 'trained' by the media about what we don't 'need' with no regard for the constitution and why it exists.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
I should have been more clear. It is trying to fire out of battery but not hitting the primer hard enough. Nevertheless unpredictability is not a good thing in a gun.

Mike
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No, it's still just hammer follow, but the trigger system definitely makes it much easier to get hammer follow. The AR protects against OOB by: the hammer cannot hit the firing pin until the carrier is fully seated, and the firing pin does not extend past the bolt face until the bolt is rotated to lock into place. Neither of these items are being defeated.

I agree about the unpredictability. I'd put this trigger as something for 3-gun gamers, those who want to generate once-fired brass as fast as possible and people who want to annoy anti-gunners, so not a big issue. I hope people would stick with a standard trigger on a HD/SD gun. But if the price comes down, I'd buy it just because its existence would bother certain other people!
 
I'll repeat what I said two years ago: these things are dangerous and an altogether bad idea. It's not even good for 3-gunners because they have to hit their targets with an exact number of shots, and if they go over they're disqualified. Have to hit with 5 shots? Guess what? You now hit with 6. Have to hit with 10 shots? If you miss one and try to make it up, you now have 11.

They're also a legal minefield for numerous reasons, including the fact that many states word their machine gun laws slightly differently from the ATF. By ATF rules, if it doesn't fire more than one shot per simple mechanical action of the trigger (either pull or release), then it's not a machine gun. If a state defines a machine gun as one that fires more than one shot per PULL of the trigger, this otherwise-insignificant difference in wording makes having one of these a felony. By state law, you now have an illegal unregistered machine gun.

Bottom line: there's so many bad things about these types of triggers. I highly recommend you avoid them.
 
I can only imagine This is what it must have been like 150 years ago when someone invented the Autoloading pistol....

"Gah, what do you mean it loads its self!.......what do you mean it fires every time you pull the trigger!......they are going to ban these soon!.......no one NEEDS a semi automatic hand gun!.....that's only good for wasting ammo!......these are going to get someone killed!!!"
 
roklok, congrats on your success! That's awesome! I would definitely buy one! It's probably a good idea to have a THR discount! :)
 
Caliper_RWVA said:
No, it's still just hammer follow, but the trigger system definitely makes it much easier to get hammer follow. The AR protects against OOB by: the hammer cannot hit the firing pin until the carrier is fully seated, and the firing pin does not extend past the bolt face until the bolt is rotated to lock into place. Neither of these items are being defeated.

I agree about the unpredictability. I'd put this trigger as something for 3-gun gamers, those who want to generate once-fired brass as fast as possible and people who want to annoy anti-gunners, so not a big issue. I hope people would stick with a standard trigger on a HD/SD gun. But if the price comes down, I'd buy it just because its existence would bother certain other people!
Click to expand...
Is the hammer not dropping when the bolt and carrier are out of battery or am I missing something?

It is clear the Binary Trigger has this problem but I have not seen anyone definitively sate whether the Echo Trigger suffers from the same problem.

Mike
 
"Gah, what do you mean it loads its self!.......what do you mean it fires every time you pull the trigger!......they are going to ban these soon!.......no one NEEDS a semi automatic hand gun!.....that's only good for wasting ammo!......these are going to get someone killed!!!"
Click to expand...
In a big way, this is exactly what tye 34 NFA was all about. Practical, effective autoloaders (semi and full) were getting dangerously inexpensive for the power brokers' tastes, so they tried to ban all concealable guns with a ridiculous tax burden. Sanity prevailed and handguns were removed from the Title II section, though the SBR, SBS, AOW, DD insanity remained to torment us.

TCB
 
roklok,
Congrats on the design.
I dont see a safety problem with this as long as you have enough sense to operate a firearm in the first place!

Maybe you should just put a caution on the package that states if you don't have enough common sense to use this product, DON'T BUY IT!
 
roklok said:
... I have had patent pending status on this for nearly two years, and just recently received a favorable ruling from the BATF. They did not approve my first prototype I sent them, but I am not going to elaborate any further than that at this time. The patent should issue within the next six months. The drawings and patent specs will be available at that time, maybe sooner....
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Patents generally publish before they issue at about 18 months after the filing date. Your application and drawings may already be in the public domain. Do you have your application title or serial number?
 
How can you patient a staple, which is all it takes to mod a mini 14, to shoot once when pulling the trigger, and another time when letting off the trigger.
I too have a BATFE letter saying this is legal, but they tend to change their minds on things like this. I would hate for the anti's to use this as fodder.
STW
 

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Arizona_Mike said:
Is the hammer not dropping when the bolt and carrier are out of battery or am I missing something?

It is clear the Binary Trigger has this problem but I have not seen anyone definitively sate whether the Echo Trigger suffers from the same problem.

Mike
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The hammer is being released, but can't drop because the bottom of the bolt carrier is in the way. Thus hammer follow. You would still need to have an out of spec firing pin or bolt to allow the rifle to fire out of battery.

It is possible (although much harder) to do the same thing and release the hammer before the BCG is seated with a GI trigger. Heck, it's possible on most hammer-fired rifles. You would just have to time your finger such that you press the trigger after the hammer notch seats on the sear (so the disconnector is out of the way) and before the BCG seats.

Since there is no connection between the trigger group and the BCG on an AR, I'm having a hard time seeing how the Echo trigger would prevent this malfunction either.
 
M-Cameron said:
I can only imagine This is what it must have been like 150 years ago when someone invented the Autoloading pistol....

"Gah, what do you mean it loads its self!.......what do you mean it fires every time you pull the trigger!......they are going to ban these soon!.......no one NEEDS a semi automatic hand gun!.....that's only good for wasting ammo!......these are going to get someone killed!!!"
Click to expand...

+1. Anti-gunners will ALWAYS find something to complain about. Don't sit back and let firearms technology stagnate for fear of people who would ban ALL firearms if they could. If we let the hoplophobes control us through fear, we'd still be using matchlock muskets and not those "dangerous, long-range, quick firing" flintlock rifles!
 
Caliper_RWVA said:
The hammer is being released, but can't drop because the bottom of the bolt carrier is in the way. Thus hammer follow. You would still need to have an out of spec firing pin or bolt to allow the rifle to fire out of battery.

It is possible (although much harder) to do the same thing and release the hammer before the BCG is seated with a GI trigger. Heck, it's possible on most hammer-fired rifles. You would just have to time your finger such that you press the trigger after the hammer notch seats on the sear (so the disconnector is out of the way) and before the BCG seats.

Since there is no connection between the trigger group and the BCG on an AR, I'm having a hard time seeing how the Echo trigger would prevent this malfunction either.
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Most ARs these days come with M16 carriers. Isn't the design different since the auto sear protects against OOB even in semi-auto in an actual M16?

I don't think this is just hammer follow (usually a disconnector not engaging) but a race condition between the operator and the bolt after the disconnector as engaged.

I know from personal experience that hammer follow is unlikely to ignite a primer but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of it happening.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
Most ARs these days come with M16 carriers. Isn't the design different since the auto sear protects against OOB even in semi-auto in an actual M16?

I don't think this is just hammer follow (usually a disconnector not engaging) but a race condition between the operator and the bolt after the disconnector as engaged.

I know from personal experience that hammer follow is unlikely to ignite a primer but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of it happening.
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The auto sear in an M16 does not function as a safety sear in semi auto fire. It moves out of the way in semi. Drop in AR-15 auto sears do function as safety sears.
AK's and FAL's are a different story though as the auto sear functions as a safety sear even while in semi. Winchester 100's have a safety sear. SKS's have a safety sear that can be modified to act as a full auto sear.
 
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yugorpk said:
The auto sear in an M16 does not function as a safety sear in semi auto fire. It moves out of the way in semi. Drop in AR-15 auto sears do function as safety sears.
AK's and FAL's are a different story though as the auto sear functions as a safety sear even while in semi. Winchester 100's have a safety sear. SKS's have a safety sear that can be modified to act as a full auto sear.
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Thanks for the info. Auto sear is a safety in the CZ as well (why the semi versions have "the gremlin").

I had thought that the bolt closing disengages the auto sear (and the disconnector takes over). I guess a DIAS is different.
 
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