Same/comparable/close powders under different labels

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We all know W231/HP-38 are same exact powders under different labels verified by Hodgdon.

But Red Dot and Promo are different powders yet have comparable powder burn/characteristics to use same powder charge as indicated by Alliant (Alliant says to use Red Dot load data for Promo by weight) -

And there are close powders that are different and close enough in burn rate/characteristics but require different powder charges like Hdgdon 4895 and IMR 4895.

So, let's start listing and verifying the same/comparable/close powders:


Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- H4895 and I4895
 
H414 & W760 are the same

W 540 & HS 6 are the same

Today's W296 & H110 are the same ... may not have been true years ago ... I don't know...

W 571 same as HS 7
 
So I have this so far (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- W540 and HS-6
- W760 and H414
- W269 and H110?
- RL15 and Norma 203B?

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- H4895 and I4895
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
 
  • Alliant Promo and Red Dot by weight are the same
  • Alliant Clay Dot and Hodgdon Clays are nearly identical
  • Alliant Unique and Hodgdon "Universal Clays" are nearly identical
  • ADI AS30N and Hodgdon Clays are identical
  • ADI AS50N and Hodgdon "International Clays" are identical
  • ADI AP70N and Hodgdon "Universal Clays" are identical
  • Ramshot Silhouette is allegedly Winchester Action Pistol (WAP)
  • Alliant 20/28 is about 5-7% more energetic than Unique, but is made for the same application (20 and 28 gauge shotgun which implies it will work in the same range for pistols, but Alliant doesn't want you to do so because it's pushing BE-86 so hard)
  • Ramshot TAC and Hodgdon H335 are kissing cousins
  • Hodgdon Titewad/Clays/Trail Boss are very close when loaded by weight and are "good enough for government work" when swapping loads for low recoil handgun loads, not for trying to get peak velocities.
 
rsrocket1, thanks - adding more to the list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- W540 and HS-6
- W760 and H414
- WAP and Ramshot Silhouette
- Hodgdon Clays and ADI AS30N?
- Hodgdon International Clays and ADI AS50N?
- Hodgdon Universal Clays and ADI AP70N?
- W269 and H110?
- RL15 and Norma 203B?

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
 
Ramshot Silhouette and Hodgdon CFE Pistol seem to run close together with comparable components. Silhouette's VMD is .0796 while CFE Pistol is .0754.
 
JimKirk, thanks. kcofohio, will add to the list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- W540 and HS-6
- W760 and H414
- WAP and Ramshot Silhouette
- Hodgdon Clays and ADI AS30N?
- Hodgdon International Clays and ADI AS50N?
- Hodgdon Universal Clays and ADI AP70N?
- W269 and H110?
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
 
It doesn't take too much investigation to see where the "incest" comes from in cannister powders. For instance, "Hodgdon" doesn't make any powder, they are a distributor of powders. They own Winchester and IMR and actually had ATK/Alliant make a batch of 700X for them recently. They get a bunch of powders from ADI in Australia:
ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
AS30N.................Clays
Trail Boss.............Trail Boss
AS50N.................International
AP70N.................Universal
AR2205...............H4227
AR2207...............H4198
AR2219...............H322
BM2....................Benchmark
AR2206H.............H4895
AR2208...............Varget
AR2209...............H4350
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217...............H1000
AR2225...............Retumbo
AR2218...............H50BMG

(a direct quote from an email inquiry here on post #17)

You can also see that Western Powders owns Accurate, Ramshot and Norma so equivalents on this chart at least from these three companies will be fairly close. Just like the equivalents from this ADI chart will tell you which ADI, Hodgdon, Winchester or IMR is likely to be close in terms of compatibility.

In these days of powder shortage, it's good to know what powders are good candidates in case your favorite is unobtanium. I recently got 3 pounds of 20/28 which should hold me over until I find some more of my favorite Unique. The last time I found 2 pound of Unique was last June 400 miles away from home.

A little hint: The Clays line of powders is allegedly no longer going to be imported from Australia, Hodgdon will be getting a domestic producer to make it for them and will soon be less expensive (good, because I'm seeing those powders going for $180/8# locally even at the store where they don't gouge)
 
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Close powders could include CFE and Auto Comp, I believe. R. H. VanDenburg Jr. published an article in the April 2015 edition of "Handloader" magazine (page 14 under the picture of the bottle of CFE) in which he states the Hodgdon ballisticians assured him that in the absence of CFE Pistol data, AutoComp data may be substituted. He goes on to caution not to exceed AutoComp max data because the time/pressure curves for the two powders are "worlds apart."
 
rsrocket1, unfortunately we can't get ADI powders here and must look for Hodgdon packaging. To be practical, I think we need to stick to powders that we can buy in the USA.

papaairbear, I would agree.

Updated list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- W540 and HS-6
- W760 and H414
- WAP and Ramshot Silhouette
- W269 and H110?
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
 
Powders made by ADI for Hodgdon/IMR
 

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Grain for grain I get nearly identical results with Autocomp and CFE Pistol, in both 9mm & 10mm.

Hodgdon's online data make direct comparison difficult in 10mm - for 155 XTP they list one OAL at 1.250, and the other at 1.260.
 
Duvel, agree with AutoComp/CFE Pistol. I added Lovex powders to the "relative" powder listing here - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10163949#post10163949

Updated list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- W296 and H110
- W760 and H414
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- No 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- No 5 and Lovex D036
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
 
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CFE Pistol, Autocomp, and Silhouette are produced at St. Marks. There have been a few writings stating Winchester Action Pistol became Silhouette. All three are about the same in burn rate.
 
Thinking out loud... bds, since you own the 2nd post, maybe 'cut & paste' each edited version to that location. That way it would be easy to find the latest version, and any potential errors could easily be seen by new viewers who might not read the whole thread.

Like post #17 lists "269" instead of "296".

Maybe add 571 = HS-7 (discontinued, but it's still out there).

.02
 
What really needs to happen ...is to get all the dust settled out as close as possible ... giving a little time for some emails to be answered .... then clean up the list and have a "sticky" made with a Date ... like this list is "good" as of 2/1/2016 .... we all know this is an ever changing deal ... especially with the over seas powders made by one makers ...then 6 months later being made by another under the same name ...

Same needs happen with the "Where Stuff is made Thread" ....

I think BDS is the one to handle it ....

HS 7 / W 571 was in post #3 ... got over looked ... this is what I mean by letting the dust settle ... then make a "final" list for that time .... to be updated and the date changed as needed ...
 
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For any NEW reloaders out there - do note that some of the powders are similar BY WEIGHT. That means if you are using a disk or drum type powder dispenser and switch powders you may well need to change the settings or disk hole size to achieve the same WEIGHT as before. Only your scale can tell for sure.
 
ADI AS30N and Hodgdon Clays are identical
ADI AS50N and Hodgdon "International Clays" are identical
ADI AP70N and Hodgdon "Universal Clays" are identical
Click to expand...

Not exactly.

ADI no longer manufactures the Clays line of powder for Hoddgon.

Hodgdon "clays line" is now manufactured in Canada.

Supposedly the same "formula", but a totally different manufacturer.

Is that still considered "Identical", I say no.
 
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Ramshot X-Terminator and AA 2230 Are Identical, conformed by Western Powders.

Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Bore = Identical.
 
steve4102 said:
Not exactly.

ADI no longer manufactures the Clays line of powder for Hoddgon.

Hodgdon "clays line" is now manufactured in Canada.

Supposedly the same "formula", but a totally different manufacturer.

Is that still considered "Identical", I say no.
Click to expand...

When did that change?? The chart I posted above is from 7/8/15 direct e mail from ADI.
 
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