Role of the 12 Gauge Shotgun in Warfare (2016)

RIF. It means Reduction in Force. In the past when ever the shooting stopped and the Army thought it had too many officers there would be a RIF.

The vast majority of officers under Major only hold reserve rank. Notice that most folks commissioned out of ROTC (RESERVE Officer Training Corps) are commissioned as reserve officers and but a handful given Direct Regular Army Commissions. Nothing ticks off a Young West Point Butter Bar more than meeting an alumni of Moo Cow U's ROTC department with an ID card that Identified him as having a Direct Regular Army Commission with the same date of rank. Even more fun when Moo Cow grad is also prior service and "out ranks" the ring knocker with time in service.

When they were no longer needed as officers some reserve officers were given the option of getting out all together, being a sit at home Reserve Officer slowly missing every promotion until not promotable, or "reverting" to regular enlisted rank.

Right after VN E6 and E7 former captains were not uncommon. Especially in the Special Ops community.

A bit later they sometimes used Reserve Officers to get around finance issues. A reserve officer could be used for 179 days a year without him being paid as on "active duty" A good number of folks were so used between the first gulf war and the second down in Tampa. Amazingly a number of these folks got offered active duty after 911.

As to double barreled shotguns and M-1 Garands I can not say. Weird things happen. I personally carried a reproduction Colt 1851 Navy revolver loaded with BP, caps, and .36 caliber round ball on a number of occasions in 1974 during times of high tension around a Pershing missile site in Germany. Yes, I would have been busted big time for doing so if caught. It and "spare" 5.56mm Ball got passed around for use when the powers that be decided that we might be trigger happy with our normal load of ammo on patrols. This decission on their parts was not thought highly of by the men required to go out whether they had ammo or not. Also during that time a non existant ( unpapered )Walther p-1 (P38) floated around another platoon.

Naturally no paper record of such crap exist.

On the other hand if I had not toted an obsolete C&B revolver on patrols I would not believe some one else telling barracks tales about doing so and you likely don't believe me, so.......

-kBob

jdh said:

I had a CSM that had made it as far as Major in VN. Only about 10% of those who received Battle field commissions during the was were able to retain them when the war ended. In the 80s there were many senior NCOs who had been officers before being returned to their previous rank, plus any promotions they would have earned had they not been given a battlefield commission, running around.

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kBob said:

When they were no longer needed as officers some reserve officers were given the option of getting out all together, being a sit at home Reserve Officer slowly missing every promotion until not promotable, or "reverting" to regular enlisted rank.

Right after VN E6 and E7 former captains were not uncommon. Especially in the Special Ops community.

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Thanks for the info guys, I didn't know it was that common. Does anyone know of someone going from officer to enlisted more recently, say post-2000?

John, what I had seen looked just like the FRAG-12 HE rounds you linked to.

I might have misunderstood their use when I saw them or fusioned two distinctly different ammo memories since then, but the memory I had in mind when I wrote my previous post was about killing people inside a construction by shooting some ammo that looked just like that through a window.

Thanks for the link.

Know a submariner.

They had to stop using M16s for guard duty because more than one guy had dropped the mag into the bay.

That means a scuba team has to be called out to retrieve live rounds.

They all get shotguns now.

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That's very odd. I've never heard of having to call a SCUBA team to retrieve live rounds. Perhaps they do that when in port and not at sea. I was firing an M16 full auto on a sub a few years ago. When it'd get hung up, the one sailor would yank the mag out and toss it into the water (rounds and all). He did this with about 3 mags. I thought it was kind of wasteful. This was outside if Point Loma.

I also saw sailors dumping thousands of pieces of brass (9mm, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, and .50) and empty ammo cans into the Atlantic. As a reloader, I was mortified.

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Retired 20 year submariner here.

Lost rounds overboard are lost rounds overboard. I never heard of sending divers for them.

Lost rounds pierside, around drydock, etc...that's a different matter and a search will be done.

With respect to tossing magazines and such overboard...I don't know how the coners trained for that. Much of this also involves how the watchstander is geared up, I suppose. If the watchstander doesn't have pouches dedicated to empty mags, he sure ain't about to waste time trying to stuff 'em back in tighter fitting magazine pouches. Topside on a sub ain't like topside on a surface ship. A sub has a round hull and the thought of loose debris topside doesn't strike me as particularly safe.

The weapon choice depends on several factors. Is the sub a fast boat, boomer, or a GN? Are they in a home port, forward deployed, or a foreign port? What is the current threat assessment? What activities are being performed? Which topside watches are needed? Are extra layers of physical security being provided by other activities?

Remember...any gun has its own inherent characteristics which makes it more or less suitable depending on the circumstances. A watchstander is armed accordingly. Shotguns are darn good close in weapons in areas where they can be readily wielded. They're not as suitable as a rifle for long distances or a pistol in cramped quarters.

Also remember that security is a many layered concept. For subs, this includes the base facilities, boats patrolling the waters near the piers, armed Marines in the area, topside watch, pierside watch, roving watch topside, gate guard at the head of the pier, added security barriers, etc.

The shotgun is just another defensive tool to fill a specific need.

My experience as an infantryman in the Al-Anbar Province in 03-04 with the Army is this. They assigned us some Mossberg 500 for breaching doors. Those that were assigned them got them as a secondary weapon. In an inexperienced move by either or supply higher ups or the Army in general, we were issued steel ball 00 rounds for breaching. Twice in a row, when doors were breached steel balls came back and hit the shooter. No serious injuries, but some pretty painful welts were recieved. We just went back to kicking the doors or having a vehicle ram them. Later in our deployment one of the "good 'ole boys" named Taft took to carrying one on patrols (I guess permission was given or they knew he was gonna do it anyways lol). Well two enemy combatants who were running through a little creek bed with elephant grass learned all about taft and his shotgun. While everyone was popping shots off at the runners, Taft ran up and emptied the 00 rounds into that elephant grass and smoked them. I think the shotgun still has a home in the combat units in our military and always will. It's also my main Home defense weapons above my AR & AK.

Theohazard said:

Thanks for the info guys, I didn't know it was that common. Does anyone know of someone going from officer to enlisted more recently, say post-2000?

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Sure, in the National Guard just resign your commission and finish out your time as an E5-E6, retire and collect ret. pay at highest rank held. It happens, I've met a few. However, I've never met a CSM, the time it would take to work up to CSM makes the story a stretch though technically possible.

The problem with the "fish-story" is it sounds just like every story told by every poser. Possible...sure, highly unlikely,-roger. Any experienced vet would know w/in a few minutes of talking to the guy whether he was full of it or not. The CPT-CSM stuff could be easily proven with paperwork. What weapons were carried or not, can't unless he has photos with Garand carrying SEAL etc.

kBob,

Standing guard duty on the CAS site, ASP, or missile storage yard we were issued a magazine with three rounds. If we had ever been searched and the two boxes of Rod and Gun club sourced 5.56 ball stashed in an extra first aid pouch on the LBE had been found we would have suffered a similar fate.

First a few corrections to what Kbob said. I'm a retired lieutenant colonel so I have a good idea how it works.

Most officers have Reserve commissions whatever their rank. I've seen several make General so a Reserve commission is not an impediment to your career. West Pointers did get Regular Army commissions until 1996. After that they received Reserve commissions. They used to give them to the top 10% of ROTC classes. ROTC is the biggest source of officers in the Army. They gave all officers on Active Duty RA commissions in 2005. When there are RIFs in the Army, they get rid of officers first voluntarily by offering buy outs. Few officers are "kicked out".

The benefit of a RA commission is you could stay during RIFs. However, the RA commission trailed whatever rank you held by a grade or two. This is why Custer was a general in the Civil War and was a lieutenant colonel at the end. IIRC Patton was a lieutenant colonel in WWI and reduced to captain after.

I have never seen any disdain exhibited by a West Pointer toward a ROTC officer with a RA commission. Having a RA commission had nothing to do with authority. Purely a tag that could save your job in case of a RIF.

Reserve Officers serving on AD get the same pay and allowances as an AD soldier gets with the same rank and service. What a 179 day tour saves the government is having to give GI Bill benefits for that 179 day tour. This is not only for officers. The Alaska National Guard soldiers that used to patrol the Bering Sea area were on AD for 179 days, released from AD for a day, and brought back on for 179 days. This gave them all the same retirement benefits as AD (they had to wait until age 60 to collect their pension) but no GI Bill benefits.

Most NCOs you see in the National Guard that used to be officers are the result of failing to get promoted. Not that they did anything bad, just failed to meet requirements for promotion. I knew one guy who was a captain, got passed over twice for promotion, and wound up as a staff sergeant. He made it up to first sergeant when he retired. Another guy was a captain, failed to make major because he didn't have a Bachelor's degree. Both retired as captains. Captain to SGM is possible.

I was not in Special Operations but made contact with them many times throughout my career. Yes they often used unconventional weaponry. However, a double barrel shotgun is a poor choice when you can carry a 1911 or even a M9. A SEAL carrying a Garand is also very unlikely. How do you redistribute ammo after a fight when everyone else has a M4?

As an Armor Crewman for 20 years, I often thought a 12 Gauge in the Turret would be handy.
A tank has an amazing amount of firepower and optics on board. The only problem tends to be that you can occasionally get someone under your gun. By that I mean maximum depression doesn't account for someone slipping up close enough to drop a surprise in your lap. If you know anything about MOUT training or Tanks in a MOUT environment, that is a real threat.
I have countered that threat with a smoke grenade salvo in the past, but it would be much more practical to have a SBS handy to do the same.

jdh,

We carried 108 round ball in 20 round magazines loaded with 18 rounds each. They never let you have enough time to really inspect the ammo when change overs happen, but I always did during my first opportunity to do so. I atleast looked to see that the first round was on the correct side of the magazine though and sometimes "caused trouble" by demanding a count otherwise.

What really and truly ticked me off was that some guys would steel a round or two. Typically only one per magazine, but thy would replace a missing round with a section of ball point pin barrel or in one case a stick.

The paranoia about fire on CAS and Field Sites was such that we would pull the tracer from our M60 ammo. This did make for fun when shooting the -60s on ranges as we got to shoot 1 to 2 or 1 to 1 or even straight tracer.....weeee!

Or out side the perimeter patrols went armed or I should say with ammo about 80 percent of the time. When ammo was not issued we still had to carry the rifles and many thought this made us more likely to be shot at than ignored.

Because 40 Mike mike mike was held in reserve and never actually issued at CAS or Field sites the M203 was not popular and usually went to some newbee.

Everyone in our 3 companies was issued a rifle, even if when doing regular Infantry stuff you were on a 60 team or a 90 team. A 90 and a pair of 60s were on the CAS. Both 60s went out on alerts with full kit and initially 300 rounds. The 90 and its HEAT rounds stayed in the SOG shack until he felt it was needed. Pistols stayed in the arms room except for additional duties like payroll guard which was usually handled by a platoon not on CAS duty......though I did so twice with a hellish long drive in a Mutt. At one CAS the two gate guard were issued 1911s. Oddly the guns stayed on the gates and were swopped out like the rifle ammo so the two gate guard(each on separate shifts) each had a holster but shared a pistol.....weird. When we did normal Infantry stuff the weapons squad folks got their pistols back.

My very last CAS tour they started issuing two magazines "loose" and the rest packaged together in some sort of plastic shrink wrap. This was VERY unpopular.

Rifle ammo before that got shot up in training and replaced each year.

My main CAS was near the village of Innerringen and our cantonment area called Camp Blackjack. The unit was based in Neu Ulm and Battalion HQ in Stuttegart. Things changed after I left.

-kBob

Grzz22,

I went through the OBFAC and CBOC in 1981 with a class that was almost 80 percent West Pointers.

I met several Ring Knockers that looked down their noses on all ROTCies and a couple that were especially put off by my own Direct RA commission with the same date of rank. I pointed out that my prior service gave me the edge on them for time in service as a means of teasing them.

I also teased them allot about the Class of 1977 Cheating scandal as most of them had only rumors about it. Many checking up on me found I did know a good deal more about the event than they and some decided I myself must be a member of the exclusive '77 Cheetah club. This was not so, but a very good friend of mine was and had given me a magazine box full of records on the subject because he thought they might interest me. The words Rail Road still come to mind.

I ran into an officer later in Europe that was also snotty about the West Point commission being somehow more valuable than a ROTC commission as she thought all ROTC commissions were reserve.

Don't get me started on Gentlemen from Virginia or Whole Men from South Carolina.

-kBob

shotguns (Mossbergs) are one of the best weapons we had in the Navy for in side the ship defense, we could bounce the buck shot off decks , and bulkheads, believe it or not, kinda shooting around corners. never saw any M-16 on my ships but many m-14 in armories

HTCS AW/SW USN Ret.

With a son in the CG, I was interested to hear of their weapons training schedules (and the "familiarization" with the shotgun..). He's a dedicated M-4 type -but was very interested to learn just why buckshot on board most vessels has certain serious advantages at close quarters. Doubt that any of this will ever become training doctrine - but folks who know how to "skip shoot" or use buckshot ricochet characteristics to their advantage will always be around - but they won't be newbies at all...

Kbob, what I said is I never saw any disdain by West Pointers toward officers with Reserve commissions. I said I never saw any. Didn't say it didn't happen. I've encountered officers with commissions from all sources that were jerks. Most of the best officers I knew were mustangs and a few West Pointers. I will admit West Pointers had their own club but I never saw it interfere with anything operationally.

I was commissioned about the same time you were. I was a promotable SSG when I went to OCS. Just made max age for commissioning at the time by 6 weeks.

This stuff about RIF's strikes a chord with me. My Dad enlisted in 1941 (or early 42), was lucky enough to get a shot at OCS after three years or so -then made a career of it (Army Corps of Engineers). In the next 28 years he survived RIF after RIF - and towards the end of his career managed two tours to Vietnam... before finally retiring when I was still in the service myself... Funny thing, the only college he ever got was at night school.... He said, when asked... that he made a point of being the best they had - always...

Don't think that sort of stuff is even possible today.... Wish he were still around. Our family did have the best of it -by the time I was 12 I'd lived in five different countries (including the good old big PX). In that era (which ended for our family in 1960) we never once went overseas by air - it was always by ship, of one kind or another....

I've learned a lot from this thread. This has convinced me that if we go to war against cobras that are ready to strike....we need to arm all of our troops with sawed off shotguns in shoulder holsters. We can also train everyone to "bounce" buckshot off of all sorts of things during our thousands of firefights that take place on ships every year.

I've learned a lot too... I need an acronym dictionary to keep up with the MS (military speak).
If you're a wanna be bad ass you need an SSG (sawed off shotgun) in a shoulder holster before you get the the rank of KMA. Which, could pose a problem for a WPG with an ROC when dealing with an RAC from the ROTC.... Which would be a PITA. I think.

I've learned a lot from this thread. This has convinced me that if we go to war against cobras that are ready to strike....we need to arm all of our troops with sawed off shotguns in shoulder holsters. We can also train everyone to "bounce" buckshot off of all sorts of things during our thousands of firefights that take place on ships every year.

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I hope this was tongue in cheek.

I would re-enlist to be in that fight... Kinda like a Monty Python version of Blackhawk down !! Lmfao

Y'all can believe the story that was told to me or not, but Afghanistan at the time was like the wild west and a NatGuard CSM can get away with quite a bit because of the rank.

As for the Seal and Garand, it could have been an M-14 and I'm not recalling it 100 percent. Pretty sure it was a Garand tho.

Don't take it personally, crazy things happen in combat zones all the time, usually the most unbelievable stories in the world are actually true, take Audie Murphy for instance. Everyone is just joking around about it, true or not it's a funny mental picture atomd painted. It was a combination of all the weirder uses of shotguns that were mentioned on here I think