Defense of a domestic animal

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You cannot use deadly force in defense of property. You can use deadly force in defense of your life.

If someone is unlawfully on your property, and harming your property, you can go out and tell him to stop. If he attacks you, you can defend yourself.
 
Now that you have posed this question and established a bias towards a particular race/national origin, God help you if you actually need to defend yourself or your pets as described in the op. A good prosecuter would use every bit of that to establish motive.
 
Posted by Vern Humphrey:
You cannot use deadly force in defense of property. You can use deadly force in defense of your life.
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That is true, provided that you were not the instigator, and provided that you had no choice other than deadly force.

If someone is unlawfully on your property, and harming your property, you can go out and tell him to stop.
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Yes, but there are risks involved, and little in the way of upside.

If he attacks you, you can defend yourself.
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The problem becomes on of piecing together incomplete evidence..

And there are the issues of necessity and of who initiated the confrontation. People have served time for displaying firearms in the presence of trespassers.

No only that, but a superior court judge in on state has opined that, should someone pull a gun on a trespasser, the trespasser might well be justified in using deadly force in self defense.

My biggest concern would be the guy I did not see.
 
Something from my own personal experience...I knew a guy who got into a domestic dispute with his girlfriend.

It escalated to the point she said she would kill his dog. He picked up a gun and shot her.

The court stipulated to all of this because he admitted it.

She's dead. He went to prison for 25 years to life.

Unless the law accords a SPECIFIC dog special status, it is an item of property.

It's harsh, but it is what it is. I don't want to generalize too much, but if you pick up a firearm and pull the trigger, the people who run the judicial system can make you answer for your actions, if they are so inclined.
 
TapNRack remarked (in part, Post 8),

I do agree with ROAShooter in that the person wouldn't be thinking rationally and I could easily be the next target but, again, the variables and lawyers ability to misconstrue basic realities combined with the average modern day juror...

I think these kinds of discussions are good to have, sort of like how "sleeping on it" actually fine tunes ones ability in real life. It's good to run these scenarios over.
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Agreed, but often that bleeds over the border of what's acceptable in this subforum: what the law is.

Terry, 230RN
 
Quote:
If someone is unlawfully on your property, and harming your property, you can go out and tell him to stop.
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Yes, but there are risks involved, and little in the way of upside.
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Risk? Yes. Little upside? No

Has resulted in a suspect aborting his illegal and fleeing every time I've tried it.
 
In some States (Texas) you can use deadly force at night to protect property (that would also include your pets as property). It has been done multiple times for multiple reasons.
 
Of course the corollary question to the original post is at what point do you have to intervene to call off your dogs who are attacking the trespasser?
 
DHolland said:
In some States (Texas) you can use deadly force at night to protect property (that would also include your pets as property). It has been done multiple times for multiple reasons.
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A case was reported last week where a 75-year-old man in Texas saw a guy cut through his fence and hitch up his John Deere to his (the BG's) car in order to steal it, so he went outside and stopped him by shooting at him (or the car, not clear), this was during the daytime (the man was interviewed and cut the interview short saying that BG had interrupted his breakfast and he wanted to go back inside and finish it), and the news report said he would not be prosecuted because he was protecting his property. I remembered reading here several times that even in Texas it's only legal to shoot a thief at night, as you say above, so I'm wondering about this guy not getting prosecuted.

???
 
TapNRack said:
Good replies all around, basically what I expected I guess. Initially when I was told of this my mind raced and my initial thought was that I'd gun them down without hesitation if my animals were on my property doing their job. That's what worried me, in the heat of the moment would I be able to take a step back and think of the legal ramifications. I do agree with ROAShooter in that the person wouldn't be thinking rationally and I could easily be the next target but, again, the variables and lawyers ability to misconstrue basic realities combined with the average modern day juror...

I think these kinds of discussions are good to have, sort of like how "sleeping on it" actually fine tunes ones ability in real life. It's good to run these scenarios over.
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Strongly agree about mentally running scenarios. I made a whole list of possible scenarios that could happen in my house and then practiced for them with snapcaps, the idea being if I already have a plan what to do and know I can execute it I'll have a much better chance than if I would have to figure it out on the spot.
 
Berger.Fan222 said:
Suppose a trespasser on an Army base is attacked by an Army dog and in the process of defending himself, he begins to harm the dog. Would a soldier on guard duty be justified in shooting the trespasser?
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Since these signs
220px-Use_of_Deadly_Force_Authorized_(5730792058).jpg

are located at every single military installation I've ever been to, it may lend some insight into your question. As for the actual soldier, sailor airman or Marine shooting an intruder/ trespasser, that falls to the Rules of Engagement.
 
old lady new shooter said:
A case was reported last week where a 75-year-old man in Texas saw a guy cut through his fence and hitch up his John Deere to his (the BG's) car in order to steal it, so he went outside and stopped him by shooting at him (or the car, not clear), this was during the daytime (the man was interviewed and cut the interview short saying that BG had interrupted his breakfast and he wanted to go back inside and finish it), and the news report said he would not be prosecuted because he was protecting his property. I remembered reading here several times that even in Texas it's only legal to shoot a thief at night, as you say above, so I'm wondering about this guy not getting prosecuted.

???
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It would be hard to say without all of the details of the case. However, it's ultimately up to a human to decide whether to prosecute, regardless of what the letter of the law says. It's possible that the DA simply decided not to prosecute.
 
BLB68 said:
It would be hard to say without all of the details of the case. However, it's ultimately up to a human to decide whether to prosecute, regardless of what the letter of the law says. It's possible that the DA simply decided not to prosecute.
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The story is reported at http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...etting-stolen-during-breakfast-i-stopped-him/, where there is an embedded video report from local television saying no charges were filed. There is also a much shorter version of the story at http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Elderly-man-shoots-alleged-trailer-thief-7252766.php, which also states no charges have been filed. BG already had a felony warrant for auto theft.
 
old lady new shooter said:
..which also states no charges have been filed. BG already had a felony warrant for auto theft.
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We are sliding off topic here, but there is an important point to be made in regards to this case. It doesn't matter if the man was arrested. It doesn't matter if the police have yet to file charges. A man was shot so the case is going to a Grand Jury which will ultimately decide if this man is going to be charged. The police may sympathize with him and not take him to jail but that is far from the end of the story.
 
A dumb cluck of the first order.

Went outside, not knowing who might be out there or where.

Started shooting at a thief, in the daytime.

Made public comments that would surely weaken any claim of necessary self defense: “The man was trying to steal my property, and I stopped him,....”.

Lucky. Was not ambushed or otherwise attacked.

Still subject to possible charges, and will remain so until he is tried and acquitted, or a case is dismissed with prejudice, or the statute of limitations runs out, or he is pardoned, or he dies, whichever happens first.
 
If the intruder is in a direct physical confrontation with your two dogs, unarmed....

I'd say that's a great time for the fire extinguisher sized pepperspray, or the OC paintballs, if you had em.

If I was a juror, you'd have a hard time convincing me an unarmed combatant, engaged with not one, but two dogs, was somehow a pressing lethal threat to your person.

Unfortunately, animals are still considered property. Until that life equates to more than your lawnmower, legally, you'd best have a non-lethal option handy if this event is likely to occur again.
 
First off, did you call the police and report it? My guess is you did not, since you are asking on a forum, what you should have been asking the officer who answered the call. Report suspicious activity and build a documented history. Get video of the guy trespassing.
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Actually this is the second thing you should do.

The first is to put up NO TRESPASSING signs and locks on the gates.

Then call the police and file a police report.

I live in the country and last winter I found boot tracks in the snow around my garage. I called the Sheriff Office and filed a report. Rural thefts are common and I want to start building documentation of the problem.

I do need to install some wireless cameras around my outbuildings. They have programs now that allow you to view your cameras from a remote location such as work. Just another honey-do project waiting to be done.
 
get bigger dogs???



As for using examples from TX?

I wouldnt advise it, as TX has pretty unique laws as it pertains to protection of property.
 
old lady new shooter said:
A case was reported last week....
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Let me just add this reminder, and then we need to get back on topic.

Let's be careful about drawing too many conclusions from media reports, especially about legal points. Details which could affect the legal analysis of an incident often get left out of media reports because a reporter or editor doesn't think they help tell the story.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
 
In effort to promote peace and tranquility......I raise this question;

Isn't this "asked and answered"?

I posted the statue in post #4 and it seems to have been subsequently explained.

I'm not one that wants threads in the legal section to get shut down prematurely; quite the opposite.

But I don't want this turning into nitpicking about, supposedly, 'missing commas' in effort to make false contentions.
 
If you're worried such a scenario may recur, I'd suggest you raise your fence a few feet, and add some hot wires.
 
old lady new shooter said:
Does having hot wires in your fence make you liable if a person or animal is hurt or killed as a result of touching them?
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Maybe yes, maybe no. In any event, liability arising from electric fences, barbed wire, or booby traps are off-topic for this thread, and this forum.
 
As long as the hot wire was a commonly available fence charger available at any farm store I would think the liability would be okay. Not a lawyer but electrified fences are common around my area. Yes they will shock and alarm you.
 
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