Help choosing long range rifle...

There's a reason .308 is offered as an option in all three of your choices and it's not because it sucks

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The 308 is offered because it will sell and make the manufacturer money. The 6.5 Creedmoor in modern loadings beats the 308 handily as a target round. It simply does everything better.

It isn't that the 308 sucks, it is just that something better has come along. I own 3 different 308 hunting rifles and like them a lot. But if I were serious about getting into long range target shooting I would not be buying another 308 for that purpose. Not in 2016 anyway, 10 years ago probably.

Browning said:

Savage Model 12 LRP in .243

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If the OP wanted an LRP to use for his stated purposes, I think he'd want to stick with the 6.5 CM or .260. Savage used a 9.25 twist on their .243's, which by a lot of accounts is not fast enough to keep the heavy 107's and 115's stable at long range. That is why the RPR .243 is offered with a 7.7 twist, to cater to the folks that want to use the really heavy 6mm bullets popular for long range.

The 308 is offered because it will sell and make the manufacturer money. The 6.5 Creedmoor in modern loadings beats the 308 handily as a target round.

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Well, why would it sell if the 6.5 beats it handily? Not tying to be argumentative. It's a serious question.

I have two .308 rifles......and want a 6.5 CM.....bad....but my range had 100/200/500 yard lanes.

My thinking is that I'll be a better shooting at those ranges if I stick to developing loads and practicing my shooting skills with the .308, considering the wealth of knowledge, data and components available. I still have a lot to learn and the .308 has a lot more it can deliver.

Nature Boy said:

Well, why would it sell if the 6.5 beats it handily? Not tying to be argumentative. It's a serious question.

I have two .308 rifles......and want a 6.5 CM.....bad....but my range had 100/200/500 yard lanes.

My thinking is that I'll be a better shooting at those ranges if I stick to developing loads and practicing my shooting skills with the .308, considering the wealth of knowledge, data and components available. I still have a lot to learn and the .308 has a lot more it can deliver.

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There's nothing wrong with .308, especially if you are already heavily invested in the cartridge like yourself. I think the point folks are making is that if you are starting anew like the OP, it makes the most sense to go directly to a cartridge that is better fit to the long range shooting games. Out of the cartridges that meet that criteria, the Creedmoor makes the most sense to me given the availability of affordable, top notch factory match ammo. If you reload, your options open up, but there is still a lot of good load data for the CM out there.

Gtscotty said:

If the OP wanted an LRP to use for his stated purposes, I think he'd want to stick with the 6.5 CM or .260. Savage used a 9.25 twist on their .243's, which by a lot of accounts is not fast enough to keep the heavy 107's and 115's stable at long range. That is why the RPR .243 is offered with a 7.7 twist, to cater to the folks that want to use the really heavy 6mm bullets popular for long range.

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That's a completely reasonable solution and assumption if he's going to be using it almost exclusively for competitive shoots.

From what he was saying though it's mainly going to be for fun, shooting at paper or steel targets with the possibility of a match here and there. Mostly the farthest he'll be shooting is 550 yards although it should be capable of shooting further.

The .243 completely does that. Right down the line.

Easy to find ammo for too.

I'm using mine for varmints and hunting, so for that the .243 completely makes sense although it's totally capable of being used in matches.

From what I understand some shooters are using theirs in .243 for competition (accurate enough for it), but I don't know what they're using for loads. Not my thing.

Heaviest I've used are 95's. Yotes are getting splattered with 75's.

I was more talking about the rifle though.

Nature Boy said:

Well, why would it sell if the 6.5 beats it handily? Not tying to be argumentative. It's a serious question.

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Well, first off it doesn't sell nearly as well. The 6.5 CM RPR is the one that's nearly sold out (at least a typical gunstore prices) across the US right now. That's because it has the best combination of suitability to the task (both .243 and 6.5 Creedmoor are suitable) and factory ammo support.

Second, they offer .308 because there are people who are very traditional or who have a fascination with military calibers. They know some large portion of their market is not PRS competitors, but rather people interested in (or possibly fanboys of) military type sniping who will likely be shooting one of the M118LR clones. The "black gun" appearance of the RPR feeds into this, albeit somewhat absurdly since most military snipers in the current wars are shooting M700 actions in more conventional rifle stocks painted tan.

From a ballistics perspective, there really is no competition between .308 and .243 or 6.5CM. But from a cultural perspective, .308 has a lot of mindshare. Which I'll say I'm part of - one of my four long range capable non-hunting rifles is chambered in .308. But I don't have any illusions it can keep up with my 6.5CM at 800 yards. I know better than that.

Of the options you listed its a no brainier, RPR in 6.5.
Tubb won a national title with a 243 but there's better 6mm cartridges with longer barrel life. If you prefer 6mm (like lots of 6mm bullets on hand or prefer less recoil) then go 243 until its shot out and re barrel to a better 6mm. Or sell the 243 barrel.

As someone who owns and shoots both .308 Win (3 rifles) and 6.5 Creedmoor (1 rifle) I think I'm fairly objective and unlike many here actually have first hand experience with both. I reload for all but also shoot factory ammunition through all and hunt with one of the .308 Win rifles. There's no question that the 6.5 CM has less wind drift than the .308 Win which can be the difference between a hit or a miss at long range. However, the .308 Win is the better all around cartridge for paper punching and hunting. If I could only have one it would be the .308 Win since it's an excellent target round, excellent hunting round, offers much better barrel life, enjoys a much wider selection of top tier factory ammunition and for the reloader has a much larger selection of suitable powders and bullets.

Thanks MCMXI. That was the point I was trying to make

I still want a 6.5 CM.

Llama Bob said:

Well, first off it doesn't sell nearly as well. The 6.5 CM RPR is the one that's nearly sold out (at least a typical gunstore prices) across the US right now. That's because it has the best combination of suitability to the task (both .243 and 6.5 Creedmoor are suitable) and factory ammo support..

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Unless you know how many Ruger has made of each you can't know which is more popular simply based on availability.

As someone who owns and shoots both .308 Win (3 rifles) and 6.5 Creedmoor (1 rifle) I think I'm fairly objective and unlike many here actually have first hand experience with both. I reload for all but also shoot factory ammunition through all and hunt with one of the .308 Win rifles. There's no question that the 6.5 CM has less wind drift than the .308 Win which can be the difference between a hit or a miss at long range. However, the .308 Win is the better all around cartridge for paper punching and hunting. If I could only have one it would be the .308 Win since it's an excellent target round, excellent hunting round, offers much better barrel life, enjoys a much wider selection of top tier factory ammunition and for the reloader has a much larger selection of suitable powders and bullets.

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I've been shooting both as well, it's important to note that the OP said that he was looking for a rifle purely for long range target shooting, not hunting, not even all around shooting. For that express purpose, I believe that the 6.5 CM is clearly superior to the .308. I would take the .308 over any 6mm or 6.5mm for hunting larger game such as elk, but that wasn't the question. Also, the OP reloads, I doubt this will be the only rifle in his his stable. There is not exactly a shortage of suitable powders or bullets for loading the 6.5 CM.

Unless you know how many Ruger has made of each you can't know which is more popular simply based on availability.

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Technically true, but if you watched RPR auctions on GB for the last several months as I have, you've regularly seen the 6.5's being bid up to the $1300 - $1400 range, while .308's are easy to pick up in the $1000 - $1100 range. I guess it's possible that Ruger put out a well researched/designed/spec'd hit for the lower end PRS market, and then decided not to produce as many in the most popular PRS caliber... but I think it's much more likely that supply of each of the calibers is similar, and the demand for 6.5's is just much higher.

Here's an interesting article on what the top PRS shooters are using. It's a year and a half old, and obviously the OP doesn't have to pick a caliber just because others are using it, but it might help inform his decision.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/14/rifle-calibers-what-the-pros-use/

Gtscotty said:

There is not exactly a shortage of suitable powders or bullets for loading the 6.5 CM

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List suitable 6.5 CM powders and then list suitable .308 Win powders. Basically every one is looking for 4350 for the 6.5 CM. Now consider that the 6.5 CM is limited to 120gr to 140gr bullets with most choosing 130gr or 140gr. Then consider that 6.5 CM brass is virtually crap.

Gtscotty said:

but I think it's much more likely that supply of each of the calibers is similar, and the demand for 6.5's is just much higher

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Pure conjecture.

Gtscotty said:

Here's an interesting article on what the top PRS shooters are using

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And I suppose we should all strap huge foam blocks to our arms to improve our hit percentages too. Sadly PRS, like many shooting sports, has been taken over by gamers.

This argument is missing the blatantly obvious, which OP clearly stated if you were paying attention: he wants to shoot matches. These matches frequently have shots out to 1200 - 1300 yards, at least the ones around here. There is no way on earth you will keep a .308 supersonic to that distance. It is simply not a suitable round for the task at hand. It's suitable for many other tasks, including hunting and slightly shorter range target shooting. I LOVE the .308. But specifically for what OP wants to do it's a non-starter. He's going to end up in 6.5mm, 6mm, or a magnum no matter what. Of those choices, 6.5 Creedmoor is the simple easy turnkey solution.

List suitable 6.5 CM powders and then list suitable .308 Win powders. Basically every one is looking for 4350 for the 6.5 CM. Now consider that the 6.5 CM is limited to 120gr to 140gr bullets with most choosing 130gr or 140gr. Then consider that 6.5 CM brass is virtually crap.

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From Hodgdon

6.5 Creedmoor 120gr to 140gr (omitting the lighter stuff):
H4350
IMR4451
H414
Win 760
IMR4007SSC
Varget
IMR4064
IMR4166
Win 748
BL-C(2)
IMR4895
H4895
IMR8208XBR
Hybrid100V
IMR4350
H380

.308 155gr - 180gr (most common weights used)
CFE223
Varget
IMR4320
IMR4064
IMR4166
Win 748
BL-C(2)
IMR4895
H335
H4895
IMR8208XBR
IMR3031
Benchmark
H414
Win760
IMR4007SSC


From the Hornady Manual, add to the above list

6.5 Creedmoor:
RL-15
RL-17
RL-16 (data not out yet, but should fit in nicely)
Norma 203B
Big Game
Norma URP
Accurate 4350
Superformance

.308:
Accurate2495
Accurate2460
RL-15
Viht N-140
Viht N-150
PP 2000 MR

Do you think there are enough choices for each to successfully reload? If you need more than that you'll have to do your own research.

My brass only has 4 loads, but it's going strong... I actually use the same brand of .308 brass.

Pure conjecture.

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Don't give up, read the rest of that paragraph, I said I was speculating, although logically I would posit.

And I suppose we should all strap huge foam blocks to our arms to improve our hit percentages too. Sadly PRS, like many shooting sports, has been taken over by gamers.

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What does this have to do with the discussion at hand? Is your argument that the top PRS shooters are actually all just sweaty nerds choosing their calibers in conformance to the latest Call of Duty game? Is that what you really think?

There is some desire to use powders with low temperature sensitivity and have a full case. H4350 really is the *RIGHT* powder, but Varget or H4895 will get the job done. Just maybe a little less consistent with a less full case and 10-20 ft/s slower.

There is some desire to use powders with low temperature sensitivity and have a full case. H4350 really is the *RIGHT* powder, but Varget or H4895 will get the job done. Just maybe a little less consistent with a less full case and 10-20 ft/s slower.

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Roger that, I am waiting on H4350 for my 6.5... I'm also waiting on Varget for my .308's. I could easily find a good substitute for either, but I have sufficient back-stock, I like temperature insensitivity, and I've already put in the work to develop excellent loads with these powders.

You may have missed a golden opportunity if you really wanted to experiment with long range shooting. Cabela's had their Savage 10T on sale for $529.99 and just added 6.5 Creedmore to the .308 Win as a chambering. The 10T is a Cabela's exclusive model that offers a 4 round detachable magazine, (and yes the factory 10 rounders also fit), the accustock with full length aluminum bedding block, a 24" heavy barrel with 5R rifling, tactical bolt handle and accutrigger. I have one in .308 Win, and I don't think anything else comes close, accuracy wise at that price point. And the 6.5 Creedmore offering is icing on the cake. Even at the regular price of $599.99, it is still a bargain. If I hadn't just had some serious cash demands, (tax bill, final quarter college tuition for youngest son, and car insurance due on 3 vehicles along with homeowners premium), I would have added a 10T in 6.5 Creedmore to go with my .308 Win 10T.

Have fun with your new upper!

Learning to shoot at long range is quite an endeavor. It will probably lead to more purchases!

Good luck.

David4516 said:

Holy cow it wasn't my intention to start a caliber war.

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It is inevitable around here. If you get two gun people together you'll eventually have a discussion on calibers. If you get three gun people together two will argue to convince the third. If you get four together you have a feud brewing.

Anyway I've made my choice... I went with 6.5 Grendel. I found a good deal on an upper that I didn't want to pass up.

It's not going to have the range of the 6.5 Creedmoor or .243 win or .308 so maybe this wasn't the smartest choice. On the other hand I think it will still be a substantial step up from what I've got now. The trajectory isn't much (if any) flatter compared to my .223 but it will go much further before it goes sub-sonic. And semi-auto will be a big step up from my current single-shot...

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Yeaaaah... you didn't say that you didn't OWN a semi auto before. Or at least, if you did, I didn't read it.

Read the following in Bones voice from Star Trek: "My god man, what is wrong with you?"

Well, at least that shortcoming has been addressed, and you've gone with something that's got a little punch to it, at that.

Probably in a couple years I'll just buy an RPR anyway and then I'll have both...

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Haha.hah.ha...HAHAHAH!

"I might buy a gun in a couple of years..."

I predict you'll be posting a range report next tax refund season on the RPR, no doubt.

Have fun, shoot straight.

Gtscotty, your posts remind me of the phrase "in theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is". I said list SUITABLE 6.5 Creedmoor powders, not list every powder in a reloading manual capable of sending a piece of lead downrange. There are few ideal 6.5 Creedmoor powders ... just ask Hornady about that. Do you really want to burn up a 6.5 CM barrel with a load that shoots 3/4 moa or worse? There are numerous ideal .308 Win powders capable of producing 0.5 moa accuracy over a wide range of bullet weights. The same simply isn't true for the 6.5 Creedmoor. This won't be a deal breaker for some, but maybe for others it's worth considering and that's why I made the point.

As I said earlier, I have a number of .308 Win rifles and an AI with a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, but unlike many here am not so enamored with the 6.5 CM. Inside of 500 yards I don't see the 6.5 CM offering any real advantage at all. Sure it's an accurate cartridge that is easy to load for with the right powder, but recoil is on par with the .308 Win, there aren't dedicated suppressors for 6.5 mm calibers (makes a difference re noise), and I consider a 140gr 6.5 CM bullet to be marginal for hunting anything but deer inside 300 yards in Montana. The .308 Win is an amazing all-around cartridge whereas the 6.5 CM is a purpose built paper puncher. That's my opinion and nothing more.

As for the PRS, if you have to strap large blocks of foam to your arms to help you shoot in awkward field positions then you are far more concerned with winning a game than developing your skills for practical shooting. To their credit, the PRS does have a Tactical class for .223 Rem and .308 Win, but I would find it more appealing if equipment was limited to "practical" equipment that you would want to carry in a pack while hunting or on a mission in the military. Again, just my opinion. For the record, I've signed up for the PRS Sniper's Hide Cup in June.