Don't forget rule number 1

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This is a dumb debate. I've even seen a couple of (Former) members try to argue that the rule couldn't apply because then you couldn't even look down the barrel of a disassembled fire arm.

Bottom line I don't care how you say it, it don't care if your action is open, I don't care if you have chamber flag Don't. Point. Your G**. D***. Gun. At. Me
 
Per Cooper, "all guns are always loaded."

My problem with this version of the rule is that for the inexperienced it gives the impression that ALL guns Should be loaded. For that reason I prefer the Tread as IF version....
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Actually, our experiences teaching complete novices strongly suggest that it is not a problem if introduced and explained properly.

On the other hand --

Plenty of holes have been shot in floors, walls and ceiling, plenty of television sets have been shot, and people have been shot, injuring or killing them, with unloaded guns that were actually loaded. The folks handling those guns might have thought that they were handling them as if they were loaded, but since they thought, in their hearts, that they weren't, they got careless.

So holes wind up getting patched, new TVs bought, friends visited in the hospital.....and loved ones buried....because a guy handling a gun was wrong about it not being loaded.

Guns are dangerous. They fling small bits of metal at high speeds long distances, instantly, on the demand of the handler with just a press of a trigger. Once fired that bit of metal will hit with potentially devastating effect whatever the gun was pointed at; and once fired nothing will stop that from happening.

Guns are supposed to be dangerous. A gun that doesn't fling a small bit of metal at high speeds long distances, instantly, on the demand of the handler with just a press of a trigger isn't much use as a gun.

Safety with a gun is entirely in the hands of the person handling it. Consistently being safe with a gun is a matter of mindset and attitude. If you have a gun in your hand and if your mindset and attitude truly is that it is loaded -- you will conduct yourself accordingly.

Mr Woody said:
...Not all guns should be loaded...
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Some years back I read Elmer Kieth's autobiography. He wrote that all the guns in his house were in fact loaded at all times. His children grew up around constantly loaded guns and knew that they were loaded. He claimed that there was never a gun mishap in his household (except perhaps the guns he blew up experimenting with some of his hot loads).
 
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Sam1911 said:
If someone wants to get hung up on the sticking point of why it sounds "ridiculous" in some circumstances, they're missing the point and probably doing so deliberately.
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Nope, I'm not missing anything, deliberately or otherwise. I fully understand the reasoning behind Cooper's wording of that "rule".

Sam1911 said:
Unfortunately this ISN'T insight. It's merely blinkered narrowness of mind, allowing themselves to miss the truth and elegant simplicity of the big picture message. Being tripped up on their own cleverness in finding niggling flaws.
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:scrutiny:

Sam1911 said:
No, I can't say that I have. I won't denigrate them or insult them or dismiss what they're trying to teach,
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You already have.
Sam1911 said:
And if you've attended training where they required or even ALLOWED someone to point an (oh, sure, unloaded) firearm at another person, spread the word and let the community of shooters and trainers deal with them. That is COMPLETELY unacceptable and is such poor training practice that any trainer who persists should be out of business before they get someone killed.
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What good reason is there to intentionally point real firearms at other people in training?
 
I think that the root cause of all the arguments surrounding this is a failure to understand the difference between a fact and a rule.

If you take the statement "All Guns Are Always Loaded" as a fact, then there's all sorts of arguments that can be thrown at it- starting with a simple "No, They Are Not" and progressing to all the other arguments we have heard.

But if it's a RULE...

Look at these definitions:


Business rule, a rule pertaining to the structure or behavior internal to a business
School rule, a rule that is part of school discipline
Sport rule, a rule that defines how a sport is played
Game rule, a rule that defines how a game is played
Moral, a rule or element of a moral code for guiding choices in human behavior
Monasticism, or monastic rule, the document giving the way of life to be led by the members of the varying religious orders in the Catholic Church and other Christian groups which follow a monastic way of life
Norm (philosophy), a kind of sentence or a reason to act, feel or believe
Rule of thumb, a principle with broad application that is not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation
Unspoken rule, an assumed rule of human behavior that is not voiced or written down


Nowhere does it say anything about argument.

And as a rule, any attempt at argument should be squashed immediately.

Rules are to be followed, and consequences should result from failure to do so.
 
Sam1911 said:
If someone wants to get hung up on the sticking point of why it sounds "ridiculous" in some circumstances, they're missing the point and probably doing so deliberately.
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Nope, I'm not missing anything, deliberately or otherwise. I fully understand the reasoning behind Cooper's wording of that "rule".
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Ok, good! Then it isn't "ridiculous" sounding at all, clearly.

Sam1911 said:
Unfortunately this ISN'T insight. It's merely blinkered narrowness of mind, allowing themselves to miss the truth and elegant simplicity of the big picture message. Being tripped up on their own cleverness in finding niggling flaws.
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:scrutiny:
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Apologies.
"Niggling" just means:

nig·gle
/ˈniɡəl/
verb

1) gerund or present participle: niggling
cause slight but persistent annoyance, discomfort, or anxiety.
"a suspicion niggled at the back of her mind"
synonyms: irritate, annoy, bother, provoke, exasperate, upset, gall, irk, rankle with

2) find fault with (someone) in a petty way.
"colleagues say he loved to niggle and criticize people"
synonyms: complain, quibble, nitpick, fuss, carp, cavil, grumble, gripe, grouse, moan
"he niggles about the prices"

I used "niggling" to characterize the arguments against the phrasing because they are petty and irrelevant when comprehending the basic point and function of the rule. The rule works because those "niggling" exceptions don't matter in teaching and applying it.

Sam1911 said:
No, I can't say that I have. I won't denigrate them or insult them or dismiss what they're trying to teach,
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You already have.
Sam1911 said:
And if you've attended training where they required or even ALLOWED someone to point an (oh, sure, unloaded) firearm at another person, spread the word and let the community of shooters and trainers deal with them. That is COMPLETELY unacceptable and is such poor training practice that any trainer who persists should be out of business before they get someone killed.
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Ah, no. I simply called down proper opprobrium upon ANY group which would persist in using such needlessly dangerous techniques when trying to teach any principle of shooting or self-defense. (And I don't know WHAT they were trying to teach, exactly, so I couldn't have denigrated that. Just the technique used to illustrate it.)

YOU, yourself, decided to call them out by name as guilty of this. I would not have done so as I have no personal experience with them to back up the charge.
 
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Back in the mid-'50s I was taught the first rule of gun safety by my father...

Always treat a gun as if it were loaded. As if...

I don't know where my father got this rule. Maybe he learned it in service during WWII or maybe it was with the VA State Police. Maybe he made it up. :)
 
Fast Frank makes a very good point. It isn't a FACT. It's a rule. A practice that you must train yourself not to violate. Building habits of safety by treating dangerous situations in the safest possible manner, every time, in every case. Breaking the habit of assumption that leads to a terrible, tragic surprise.

Nowhere does it say anything about argument.

And as a rule, any attempt at argument should be squashed immediately.
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Perhaps "squashed immediately" is too strong. There's nothing wrong in almost any rules-bounded endeavor with questioning the rules, so long as that is done at the proper time, in the proper place, and in a spirit of seeking knowledge, (not proving one's own cleverness in finding flaws). Further, the authority whom one is questioning must understand the principles well enough to teach the reasoning and the proper application of said rules.

In this case, the point of Rule 1 is NOT to make anyone actually BELIEVE that a gun is loaded. The point is to make them ACT as if it is, every time in every situation, (until it is disassembled, at least) so that when some other layer of safety fails, tragedy doesn't follow.

So pointing out that it sometimes is not a FACT, once the purpose has been explained, is simply short-sighted contrarianism.

Rules are to be followed, and consequences should result from failure to do so.
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Whether they "should" or not, in the case of Rule 1, they DO.
 
i don't have to worry about the wording of rules. unless i'm working on one, all my guns are loaded at all times except for semi autos.
those have a full clip but nothing chambered.
what use is an unloaded gun?
 
susieqz said:
i don't have to worry about the wording of rules. unless i'm working on one, all my guns are loaded at all times except for semi autos.
those have a full clip but nothing chambered.
what use is an unloaded gun?
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What use is an unloaded gun? Well, often they can be loaded pretty quickly. If I want to carry one of my unloaded handguns when I leave the house tomorrow, I sure can, and it won't hardly take any time at all to load it before I go...that seems like a decent use to me.
 
boy! that's something for thr.
when i said that i carried my semis without a round in the chamber, people screamed at me on this site.
 
susieqz said:
boy! that's something for thr.
when i said that i carried my semis without a round in the chamber, people screamed at me on this site.
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I don't see what you are getting at...it sounds like you are implying that carrying a defensive pistol on your person with an unloaded chamber is similar to having currently-unused guns unloaded and in storage at your home...
 
nah. i'm not implying anything.
not arguing either.
i just prefer loaded fire arms.
whatever you do is fine with me.
for carry, i'm using a double action lately because the israeli draw is slower for me.
 
I think we're talking at cross-purposes now. Having your carry gun fully loaded and ready to fire is HIGHLY recommended.

Whether the other guns you keep at home (aside from home defense guns) are all loaded or not doesn't make a difference one way or the other as long as they're stored safely.
 
Whatever we want to call it, all I know is that when I pick up a firerarm, I make sure to check to see if it is loaded. It's a firmly engrained habit. Should I become distracted while,doing something with a firearm that I had verified as empty, I will check it again to make sure I haven't out of a reflexive action reloaded it.

What I like that Cooper did was that he kept it to four rules and didn't make them so wordy that we can't remember them. He also relied on folks keeping common sense about them as well. Nothing drives more crazy than looking in a gun manufacturers instructions and seeing something like 20 rules. I won't remember them. It's too much. I know we can thank lawyers for this.
 
Sheepdog1968 said:
Whatever we want to call it, all I know is that when I pick up a firerarm, I make sure to check to see if it is loaded. It's a firmly engrained habit. Should I become distracted while,doing something with a firearm that I had verified as empty, I will check it again to make sure I haven't out of a reflexive action reloaded it.
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100% agreed.
 
The rule simply means you do not ignore any of the other rules, even if you know that the gun is unloaded (this time). Willfully ignoring the rules destroys good gun-handling habits, even if you happen to be right (this time). Pointing guns at anyone else or anyone else's property is an offense, even if the gun is unloaded (this time).

Cleaning/maintenance of a firearm is a special case that is not covered by the rules of safe gun handling.

There are a separate set of rules for safe gun-cleaning. You can take your time and worry about those in your own home. You're not going to accidentally shoot anyone else but yourself and your own, if you can't figure those rules out. Common sense plus knowing and excercising safe gun-handling should get you through the cleaning.
 
Warp said:
What good reason is there to intentionally point real firearms at other people in training?
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For force on force training, which is a vital and sadly missing element in most civilian accessible firearms training, but a mainstay of LE and military training. That said, doing it safely requires a lot of precautions and instructors specifically trained in how to conduct FoF training...a firearms instructor, no matter how experienced, w/o this specific training isn't going to cut it. Mistakes are marked with gravestones.

Now, with a properly trained FoF instructor using the correct safety protocols...a fatal shooting is darn near impossible. Not to go too deep into it, but the danger in FoF training isn't from the "training" guns (be they live weapons converted to fire simunition or airsoft guns etc.)...it is from a live gun being accidentally introduced into the training environment. So, this danger remains even if using airsoft which are incapable of firing live rounds under any circumstance. If you do conduct this training, formally or informally, you need a "Safe zone" training area and EVERYONE!!! gets a full buddy pat down and instructor pat down before entering, and this includes the instructors (and any observers). No exceptions, leave to use the bathroom (and it's outside the safe zone), get patted down again. No knives, OC, batons, ammo, guns, nothing that isn't a training device.

For retention shooting and counter disarm training drills, I see no reason at all to use a real firearm, the Blackhawk line of training guns is under $30 ea.
 
Yeah, but Strambo, I think you've answered in the contrary. The point of Simunitions-modified firearms or blue guns, or airsoft, etc., is that they AREN'T "real firearms" (or have been so modified as that they cannot fire live ammo). And the danger you stress, completely correctly, is when someone accidentally introduces a "real" firearm into that scenario.

Doing so intentionally (even with a chunk of weed-whacker string down the barrel :scrutiny:) is deeply irresponsible.
 
I'm reminded a bit of the CMP matches I've shot with everyone walking around with bright yellow official bore flags in their chambers. And you know what you STILL don't do? POINT ONE AT SOMEBODY!
 
Sam1911 said:
Doing so intentionally (even with a chunk of weed-whacker string down the barrel :scrutiny:) is deeply irresponsible.
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Personally, I wouldn't quite go this far in absolutes. If you do this in a pat-down "safe zone" manner, with a safety officer hands-on confirming each "conversion" it would be perfectly safe. I would just personally choose (and have already done so) the inert gun route for whatever they were probably training when using this method.

I have tons of experience pointing live weapons with no modifications to prevent live rounds, namely military weapons, in FoF. No accidents in my experience over a career, but it does happen on occasion, recently an Apache took some live 5.56 rds at NTC...oops. No reason in civilian or LE training to just toss a blank adapter on and go for it though...better safety can be had.

The military is using Simunition FX and similar rounds more and more, but they have some big drawbacks in a military setting outside of CQB.

The biggest logistical hurdle to over come with realistic training for civilians is the guns. Ideally, you should train with your actual guns and gear for FoF (or whatever). However, it is not possible to have either Simunition type conversions or inert training guns for all the myriad guns that will be brought to a class. Hence the use of chamber flags or string...or the school provides training guns (and holsters if needed for the drill) of a generic type like G19/17. This adds expense and takes away from realism of using your exact gun and gear...but people can practice with their gear anytime, the main point of the drills is to learn new skills and in FoF to operate and make decisions under stress.
 
strambo said:
For force on force training
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\I did it with one of these
bt-fsg17.jpg


strambo said:
If you do conduct this training, formally or informally, you need a "Safe zone" training area and EVERYONE!!! gets a full buddy pat down and instructor pat down before entering, and this includes the instructors (and any observers). No exceptions, leave to use the bathroom (and it's outside the safe zone), get patted down again. No knives, OC, batons, ammo, guns, nothing that isn't a training device.

For retention shooting and counter disarm training drills, I see no reason at all to use a real firearm, the Blackhawk line of training guns is under $30 ea.
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Yes.

Exactly.

You just supported my statement. Why would you USE A REAL GUN in FoF training, and point it at another person, when you are not allowed to have real guns?

strambo said:
Personally, I wouldn't quite go this far in absolutes. If you do this in a pat-down "safe zone" manner, with a safety officer hands-on confirming each "conversion" it would be perfectly safe.
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WE are back to intentionally pointing a real gun at another person.

For me I think this is the closest I would accept

training-barrel.jpg
 
Simunition converted guns are "real" guns as are military M4s with blank adapters and the Glock with the yellow barrel insert.

I'm not trying to take an opposing view so much as discuss the pros and cons of various methods. Everything is a tradeoff of realism vs. risk with cost and logistics as a factor.

It wouldn't be realistic to have those yellow barrel inserts to fit student guns at a class, not remotely possible. That leaves chamber flags, generic dummy guns (that won't fit student holsters) or the improvised cord through the action. Functionally, the cord through the action does the same thing as a chamber flag. The key is in the safety precautions followed more than the device.
 
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