NRA is for the 2A infringement of those on any 'terror watch list'. What? Really?

Rest of the statement...

"At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. "

As a NRA life member I support their position. The key being due process.

I completely agree with the NRA on this one. But I also think background checks should be performed on all gun purchases. Private, at a gun show or a actual store. If said background check shows that your under investigation by the FBI for possible terrorist links then you will have to go through more hoops to obtain the firearms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I think you are going to be pretty alone on that one.

you're not alone CoRoMo, I too believe that to avoid an innocent citizen from having their rights stripped from them, I would rather some guilty parties go free. If we say that we support the 2A, then we must support the rest of the Bill of Rights as well, the right to a trial, to be presumed innocent until proven guilty etc... otherwise we are nothing more than cherry picking hypocrites who only support the rights that allow us to have guns

You're not alone. I posted the below in another thread just recently.

It doesn't matter how many lists you make, the fact is it will always be unacceptable to deny someone's Constitutional Right without due process in a court of law.

Remember all these laws they want to pass to "stop the bad people" without going through the justice system can easily be turned on any American citizen. And currently there is no way to even get off these lists not to mention no way to appeal a wrongful denial on a NICS background check (has been suspended for some time now for those who haven't been following it).

When you give the government the Right to decide who gets to exercise their Constitutional Rights without due process than we might as well throw the Constitution out.

If the FBI wants to have watch lists that's fine. Watch away. However, any person on a watch list should have zero infringements upon any rights whatsoever without due process of law. I willingly accept that I may or may not be slightly less safe because of that.

I would rather 100 criminals walk free than for 1 innocent person to be punished.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

suspending rights because someone is on a list is a dangerous slippery slope...remember there have been multiple people, some in government, that say that the NRA is a terrorist organization, and are a threat to Americans safety.

What is to stop them simply putting the entire membership list of the NRA on some form of list...since the lists are private, people would find out one at a time, and would have to go through lengthy legal hassles to restore their rights and have their names removed

The NRA shouldn't dabble with this at all...We shouldn't have to prove our innocense to be removed, they should have to prove guilt to place people on it

Haven't there been 5 year olds and members of the msm put on these watch lists?
There are criteria given to spot domestic terrorists that include supporting independent candidates, being patriotic, or being a constitutionalist...oh and being a firearm owner
This seems like a slippery slope to me

That is why the NRA expanded on the snippet posted first and called for Due Process. If you are on the terrorist watch list for good reason and your due process has been exercised and you are still considered a threat to national security and have been adjudicated as such then the NRA, and I , have no problem denying you the right to own a firearm. If you do not believe in due process rights and feel any screaming idiot who is a danger to themselves and everyone else around them should own firearms then have at it.

We have had background checks in Florida since 1991. In the beginning as an FFL, it was trouble free, took a few moments, provided 800 number. There was a dustup some years back about records retention and a law was passed directing they be deleted no more than 30 days out. I have never had a problem with background checks as they are in Florida. Also, if you have a CWP you can take your gun with you today (even if you are still angry-relax;humor disclaimer). For the record NOTHING proposed currently would have altered the outcome of Saturday's massacre. The guy had a class "G" (armed security) license and was a current employee with a .gov security contractor. Now, every swingin' chick is coming out of the woodwork spouting how crazy/abusive that tool was. Joe

It is very important to remember that under the existing system, you can't tell if you're on a terrorist watch list, have received no "due process" of law to have your rights removed, and there is no avenue what-so-ever to get yourself removed from such a list.

I think that anyone HERE supporting that "suspected terrorists on a watch list shouldn't be able to buy a gun" is not aware of those facts.

At least I hope they aren't.



Also worth noting: Just as it makes no sense whatsoever to look to Orlando and say, "this is why we shouldn't allow those people to enter this country" (since, duh, this dude was BORN here and thus a US citizen all his life), OR to look to this and say "We should ban AR-15s!" (since, duh, he didn't use one), it also makes no sense to look at this and say, "this is why people on terrorist watch lists shouldn't be able to buy guys," seeing as DUH, he wasn't ON ONE.

I think the real problem with this is the lack of due process around these lists. That is a problem regardless off whether there is new legislation to stop people on the list from purchasing a firearm or not. Quite frankly, if this attempt at adding gun control legislation opens the arbitrary nature of these lists up for discussion I cannot help but see that as a positive. The sloppy and clandestine nature of these lists needs to be changed.

When did we get to a place that we are even considering curtailing Constitutionally guaranteed rights without due process? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process to get off the list is too little, too late.
Frankly, I am appalled that we are even having this discussion in the USA.

CoRoMo said:

I'm comfortable being alone on this.

Click to expand...

You're not alone.

A secret government list of people that are prohibited from buying guns based on the decision of some bureaucrat? No, thank you. That's definitely an infringement. We've already seen people talk about patriotic organizations and veterans being considered suspect of terroristic leanings. If the "watch list" is added to the list of prohibited persons, how long before every member of the TEA party, or the Oathkeepers, or whatever is added to the list by the stroke of a pen?

I would be OK with the NICS check triggering a flag on the Terrorist Watch list to check the person again, but preventing someone exercising their rights based on suspicion and not judicial conviction is unconstitutional.

If the NRA is going to sell us out on this, I hope they we get something good in return.

The problem is the corruption of DC and the potential for political weaponization of those "watch lists" in the same or worse ways that the IRS, EPA, DOJ, and other agencies have been politically weaponized. If people trusted government we wouldn't have issues with many of these things that, on the surface, don't seem like bad ideas. But since voters/citizens who aren't fools know they can't trust the weasels in DC, we know we can rarely ever voluntarily give them more leverage to work their own agenda instead of the will of the people who gave them that power and authority that they turn into leverage.

The fundamental problem is a lack of trust in government, and those in government have 100% earned and justified that lack of trust.

Taking news articles out of context and posting parts of articles is fun. The NRA's position , once again , is that they do not have any problem with denying people on terrorist watch lists the ability to own firearms IF they have been given their Due Process.

No, the NRA's position is that they have no problem delaying a gun purchase if the individual is on a terror watch list as long as they have a due process way to get off the list/have their rights restored. I understand that.
What I have a problem with is the delay in the first place without due process.
Edited to be more clear.

yugorpk,
thats not what they said. and I quote...

"At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed"

they are saying that AFTER your rights have been removed by being placed on the list, there should be some way to get them back and get off the list....that is NOT due process...Rights are removed AFTER due process has occurred.... not before

IMO, the terrorist watch list and no fly list needs major work for these to be effective and fair.


But, according to some, particularly in the "How can we help CA?" thread, we should only fight what we are sure we can win.'

Winning that battle isn't looking good.

One goes to a web site or buys a book deemed "Subversive" by god only knows who and ends up on a
"TerrorWatchList"
Now they are not allowed to fly which may impede in their conduct of business and their pursuit of profit and they lose their right to buy a gun, possibly forever.
All because they exercised their right to free speech by viewing information that may or may not sway their position on a certain subject.

This is We The People's rights being eroded in the name of a false sense of security and I am frankly appalled people find this, any of this, as a good idea.

Even the FBI has come out and said "TerrorWatchLists" are a BAD idea because being on one informs those being watched that they are being watched meaning they can change actual terror plots and individuals before Law Enforcement can connect the dots and thwart the plan.

This whole concept will have ZERO effect on a entity or group desire to conduct an operation of mass murder and will possibly make things worse as the REAL terrorists will simply smuggle the items needed to conduct an operation including REAL Assault Rifles and/or explosive materials.

What stupid ideas really do is open the door to even bigger criminal enterprise as everyone knows restrictions on law abiding citizens actually help, not hinder, the criminally intended.

If someone is on a terrorist watch list, whose responsibility is it to "watch" them? The FBI or DHS, or the clerk at the gun store? If a guy is on the terrorist watch list, and buys a gun through legal channels, why do the agencies who maintain this secret "watch list" not know about it, but yet expect the gun store clerk to handle it when he has no idea who is on it?

I have no problem with a banned from buying list, provided that list is compiled through due process, and those who are on it, know they are on it, and be given due process opportunities to be removed from it. Maybe a list that bans people from buying should also limit their ability to become employees in sensitive the Department of Homeland Security, and TSA as well or give those employees the opportunity to have their names removed, and yes there are hundreds of them.

Most of us know the issue here. it sounds "reasonable" to ban suspected terrorists from buying guns, but we also know the full potential for government abuse, and to use a secret list that nobody knows who or how it is managed, that contains names of children and toddlers, to the late Sen. Ted Kennedy, is just too ripe for abuse.

NRA's calls for a watch list with a specified procedure and due process are reasonable, for people who have not been convicted of a crime, but sufficient cause has been shown, in the same way that we deny freedom to someone awaiting trial.