Forget the 5 shot self defense!

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I think the point to made here is it was probably a very confusing situation. Whether you had 15 rounds or 5, it would have been very difficult to not hit someone else other than the shooter. All we need is a news story that the BG killed 49 but the good guy killed 5 more trying to take him out.

Killed 5 more? lol, that's a bit of a stretch.

But yeah maybe it's better the terrorist kills 50 and injures as many more, than the terrorist kills 10 and the defender injures or kills 1.

If it saves just one life doesn't apply to stopping mass shooters.
 
Killed 5 more? lol, that's a bit of a stretch.

But yeah maybe it's better the terrorist kills 50 and injures as many more, than the terrorist kills 10 and the defender injures or kills 1.

If it saves just one life doesn't apply to stopping mass shooters.
I'm not sure why my comment is so funny to you. I don't know that even 95% of the people here are trained for such a situation. I know I'm not. My guess is the average carrier isn't. I'm not obligated to protect everyone around me. If I can't get a clear shot, I'm not going to take it. I respect the rules of firearm ownership.
 
Ok, that gets into REALLY difficult territory that's really a question of ethics more than anything else:

"Is it acceptable to accidentally kill one or more innocent persons in the attempt (successful or not) to stop someone from killing many more?"

I'm half of a mind to say it isn't even a question we can tackle here at THR as it borders on personal values and even probably some religious elements. But I suppose if we can't, there's probably no other place that could effectively do so either.
 
Do you have the capability and medical knowledge to divine just where to aim to hit and destroy something critical that is hidden within the three dimensional body of the target?
Don't make it sound harder than it is. A shot in the chest cavity will usually do the job, on men, deer and elk. I've shot all three.
 
Don't make it sound harder than it is. A shot in the chest cavity will usually do the job, on men, deer and elk. I've shot all three.

Yes.

Picture a typical piece of duct tape wrapped around the torso around the nipples and under the arm/in the armpit. There's your target.

Similarly that piece of duct tape around the head as if used as a blindfold
 
Wouldn't it be horrible if one upgraded to an AR pistol or a 33 round glock only to have encountered a terrorist who used a bomb! Or God forbid your on a plane that had an extremist pilot! The antis flare up when these awful attacks occur and go after our rights. While the pro gunners flare up and beef up their arms for the possible rare event! I like my snubbie for carry and will continue to do so. It's the most reliable, concealable weapon that works for me. A fist full of stone reliable power in a close range attack scenario,more likely scenerios than what occurred at the pulse. I will say however I'm much more observant of exits and bizarre acting people in public though. :). I also vote and fight for your right to carry what makes you more cozy.
 
"Is it acceptable to accidentally kill one or more innocent persons in the attempt (successful or not) to stop someone from killing many more?"
Isn't that known as the Doctrine of Competing Harms?
 
Back To The OP

More than five round HG:
1. Glock with varied mag high cap choices.
2.1911 .45 ACP for large hole knock-down.
3. TT-33 for accuracy and penetration.

There are others, but I'd say the above are some of the most likely to be carried in this situation.
 
There are others, but I'd say the above are some of the most likely to be carried in this situation.
Most likely carried by who and based on what? I spent over two years as a Range Safety Officer and never saw a single TT on the line. Glock because that's your preference? There are lots of other striker and hammer fired pistols other than Glock being carried by knowledgeable and capable shooters for self defense. This thread started as a fanboy thread and remains a fanboy thread.
 
I would bet that more than 25% and less than 50% jurisdictions allow for carry in such venues.
We celebrate the notion of the designated driver, perhaps next will be the designated shooter.

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I think the idea of a designated shooter is great. I was actually looking for a "contact us" link on the NRA site to suggest that after they criticized Trump for suggesting it would have been good for people in the club to have been armed.
 
My luck, I'd pull out a pistol to return fire and I'd be the one jumped on by five guys with pocketbooks who thought I was another terrorist.

I was trained to shoot in low light conditions with flashing emergency lights and sirens. It's disorienting, and high sound level thumping base music is probably worse.

And let's face it, we old geezers probably ain't going to be clubbing at 2am anyway, so let's cut the pretense about "what I'd do".
Absolutely I will not be in a nightclub at 2 am or probably ever.

BUT I *will* sometimes be in places where a lot of people are present, so I still think it's valuable to think about "what I would do".
 
question for Tirod and everyone:

Are you guys saying that a nightclub doesn't have a way to stop the strobes and the music and turn on regular lights in case of emergency?
 
ould you care to answer the question of who implied carriers would simply "spray and pray", or will you deflect again?

So OP points to a specific single shooter scenario and says this is absolutely the reason why you need to carry a G19 with a 15 round mag and a spare 17 round mag but he's not really implying you need a 15 round 9mm with a spare 17 round mag for a single shooter scenario?
RIGHT LOL
 
So OP points to a specific single shooter scenario and says this is absolutely the reason why you need to carry a G19 with a 15 round mag and a spare 17 round mag but he's not really implying you need a 15 round 9mm with a spare 17 round mag for a single shooter scenario?
RIGHT LOL

Now you are deflecting while moving the goal posts. Nice.



(OP never said anybody "needed" anything, and you seem to be the only person considering spray and pray)
 
I will point out once again the documented experience of "trained professionals" who serve as NYC cops - volley fire from half a dozen who are NOT being controlled or directed WILL result in collateral hits on innocent bystanders.

If the perp is confronted by two "good guys" and they are positioned opposite each other then both are downrange of the other. What part of chaos don't we understand here? At that point a higher capacity gun isn't the answer, it's a problem and it's been seen as a problem in the hands of LEO's doing that. Not to forget they actually have some training for coordination in those scenarios - we as the common people never get any.

Do you go out with your clubbing buddies and practice shooter takedown scenarios on the range? If presented what appears to be a good shot would you take it even tho your best friend is downrange - aiming right back at you?

There is also the issue of not having the "god view" with 100% overhead perspective and absolute certainty what is happening. That other "good guy" might be the shooters partner and you'd be mistaken in not taking the shot. But, too bad, you are playing by the rules and they are not.

That one issue is the main problem - they get to shoot anyone anywhere, you can't. Do you need two or three families suing you in the aftermath plus the political fallout of being the poster child of poor tactics AND celebrated as an honorary member of the Bad Guys for killing innocent civilians?

Go read a Mas Ayoob book pls on the follow on consequences of being in an armed confrontation, even if you succeed and it all works out legally. It will take a chunk out of your life before the winds of rhetoric calm down, much less family and friends resolving how they have a killer in their midst at holiday get togethers.

Your personal stress reduction over the incident is going to likely cost some money in counseling, too. Oh yes it will - don't be in denial over that, too.

It boils down to the preferred response - and shooting up the place to confront the A team who is exercising their preplanned response by stopping the shooter immediately may well get you killed - by the cops entering the building. Why? Killers have high capacity magazines.

Like was said, you got a flashing red arrow over your head saying "Good Guy?" Nope, what you have is a GUN IN YOUR HAND and adrenaline laced cops bursting thru the door with the preconceived mental picture of shooting That Guy With A Gun In His Hand.

Again, the view that mag capacity is the answer is a total fail. Tactics are the answer and about the only response in shooting back you have is if you actually are toe to toe with the shooter - otherwise you don't and won't be a positive contribution to the situation.

You will just be another shooter and half the witnesses will point YOU out in a lineup.

This is the continued problem with gun enthusiasts - they are "gun enthusiasts" first and foremost, who focus on the gun and it's features. They are not enthusiasts of tactics and have no understanding of what to do or not in situations. When trainers come to PD's to introduce advanced shooting scenarios do you know what the #1 thing they teach cops? You can get shot no matter what, by anybody, anytime. The lesson plan is one Kobayashi Maru after another with no good answers, cops are getting plinked with paint ball or simunitions and it's one big ego let down by the end of the day. It seems you can't do anything right.

Until you have that training don't plan on doing anything right other than hunker down, get out, and fight only if you are cornered. Do we already have a thread on that? Yes.

Do we have dozens of threads on what gun, mag capacity, ammo, or type optic, goes to looking at the problem the exact wrong way.
 
Tirod, you would be the one trying to convince us that the ability to shoot back is bad and we shouldn't carry guns lol. Never change...I like predictability
 
Wouldn't it be horrible if one upgraded to an AR pistol or a 33 round glock only to have encountered a terrorist who used a bomb!
And what about an encounter with an asteroid? And your handgun won't save you from an earthquake, either!:what:
 
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A shot in the chest cavity will usually do the job, on men, deer and elk. I've shot all three.
A handgun shot in the chest may do the job.

But it may not.

Far higher likelihood with several shots.
 
For that matter a shot from a rifle won't always kill either or there would be 102 dead instead of the 49 that were murdered.
 
Would you think anything less than a Glock 19, full with 16 rounds of your favorite 9mm hollow points, plus an extra G17 magazine would have been the least that would have you floated your boat!

It is possible to stop one man with one bullet. That he is carrying 50 lbs of ammo does not make him any more bullet proof.
 
For that matter a shot from a rifle won't always kill either or there would be 102 dead instead of the 49 that were murdered.
I'm still not convinced that all the casualties came from the terrorists muzzle but yes I think there is ample proof that what we typically consider and see used as offensive/defensive weapons are far from guaranteed to be deadly if shots don't hit vitals.
 
The Orlando Club PULSE, says it all.

If you had ignored all the Suggestions/Rules/Regulations, and entered the club at Midnight carrying concealed?

Would you think anything less than a Glock 19, full with 16 rounds of your favorite 9mm hollow points, plus an extra G17 magazine would have been the least that would have you floated your boat!

And good night sights, TruGlo three bright green dots! Otherwise you are just pointing your pistol. A good shot, with the ability to drop your blood pressure, combat breathing, one man could have had a chance!

More chance than what the majority of patrons had concealed, just Cell Phones.
Agreed, a Glock with at least one extra mag is always a good idea anywhere. I prefer the Glock 23, but a 19 is an excellent choice.
 
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