Titegroup Reloading NG Poisoning?

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paladinj

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Hello all,

After prepping just under 100 9mm cases using the Lee Classic single stage, including depriming, ultrasonic cleaning, reforming amd priming I had no issues. My only concern was the toxicity of the lead in spent primers. I did my best to collect them without touching and throw them away before wiping down the black powder they leave from the press. I have my press in my bedroom.

I also loaded bullets on to some empty and unprimed cases as dummy rounds and filled with caulk. Until here all was well.

I spent a night assembling my Lee powder thrower, breaking it in and getting it to throw charges mostly accurate to .02gr of titegroup. I returned all powder to the original container and put it away. No problem.

Last night I loaded about 60 rounds with fmj, first 60 ever, spilt a bit of powder here and there, and after a basic cleaning of the workspace went to sleep. I woke up very early with vertigo, dizziness, lightheadedness, a slight headache, a feeling of lethargia and muscle relaxation comparable only to emerging from an extremely hot shower. I also felt discomfort in my lungs and pelvic area.

Can this really be the result of some spilled titegroup powder on and around the press with some in the carpet. I probably spilled 6 grains total.

This sounds like NG poisoning to me perhaps accelerated by solvents escaped from the 4lb jug of titegroup.

Any thoughts or advice? It seems like I'm going to have to do a thoroughly cleaning of the bedroom, move everything out and quit this new hobby.
 
I spent a night assembling my Lee powder thrower, breaking it in and getting it to throw charges mostly accurate to .02gr of titegroup. I returned all powder to the original container and put it away. No problem.
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What powder scale are you using?
 
But to answer your actual question about NG, if I were you I would get out of handloading now. Why take chances?
 
I was using a very good electronic one, which I confirmed with the the Lee scale I zeroed.

That being said I am also asking how to best clean up the mess that I made, whether the problem is really due to inhalation or due to skin contact and what can be done to prevent this.
 
Check with Hodgdon but I'm fairly sure that Vihtavuori N320 doesn't contain NG but I wouldn't go to the wall on that. FYI, Hodgdon is the US importer of Vihtavuori powders. If so this would solve your immediate problem as N320 is fairly close to TG and is considered a premium powder.
 
I really see no connection between what you did and powder or spent primers. Then too, I am not a doctor. I have been rolling my own ammunition for well over 40 years and never had any bad symptoms I could attribute to exposure to spent primers or powder. However, if you continue to load and experience the symptoms as well as being able to directly link them to hand loading then maybe see a doctor and have some blood work done.

Ron
 
That being said I am also asking how to best clean up the mess that I made, whether the problem is really due to inhalation or due to skin contact and what can be done to prevent this ?
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When you call Hodgdon ask them that question.
 
I do use an electronic one, I was just saying I compared it with the Lee and they were both the same.

I have an extremely fast metabolism, relatively low blood pressure but still normal and not much body fat. I don't think lead is the concern for me, only problem was this morning after exposure to TG fumes and some on skin. I'm not saying that this will affect everyone, and it may be that someone who had the same experience has a solution.
 
paladinj,

If you think that last night you were suffering from NG exposure due to you very brief/minor reloading activities yesterday, stop all of your reloading activities and see a doctor.

IMO, if what you described was caused by the "exposure" you described, you may be one of the most incredibly NG-sensitive humans on_the_planet.

I have been enjoying this hobby since the '60s and never experienced any adverse side effects from the process ... but each of us is different. ;)

Good Luck with it and please let us know what the Doc says.
 
I probably am, I nearly passed out once from shooting at an indoor range, never been to an indoor range since and never had a problem outdoor ranges though. To be fair that indoor range is small crowded always full and probably never cleaned.

I did meet the symptoms in particular dizziness, confusion and muscle relaxation. Is it even possible from inhalation though? I did touch granules quite often.
 
Just thinking out loud.

I would think that the solvent (what ever it is) would disassociate itself from NG (which is the solute?). If it didn't and it's density is less than air I would imagine that most double based powders would have a fairly short shelf life once opened. I will give this some thought.
 
Has anybody ever had this happen? With titegroup? Now I'm feeling sad XD I guess powders with no NG for rifles in particular are still possible. For me reloading is about making things I can't easily find to buy and accuracy so I guess not all is lost.
 
As I mentioned in my rather obnoxious replay #5 check with Hodgdon about VV N320. I'm fairly sure it's a single base powder. I don't know of any other single based pistol/shotgun powders off the top of my head but a little research might turn up others. If VV powder has a SB there is N320 and N310 which will work in place of TG.
 
paladinj said:
Has anybody ever had this happen? With titegroup? Now I'm feeling sad XD I guess powders with no NG for rifles in particular are still possible. For me reloading is about making things I can't easily find to buy and accuracy so I guess not all is lost.
Click to expand...



I love Titegroup, use it often with my pistol loads, and have tried in .223 (subsonic loads), but I've never had any of the symptoms that you described from using TG.


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BTW, I likewise have a fast metabolism and relatively low blood pressure, pulse rate. I'm one of those who can eat my body weight and still not gain an ounce. Every time I have my vitals checked the Dr or Nurse gives a little verbal "wow" as they proceed.

But I don't think that would be behind any kind of reaction you might have with essentially trace amounts of NC, NG or any other volatile compound in the amounts we have on our benches. I can go into anaphylaxis by ingesting (of all things) small amounts or fresh oregano or by being stung by a wasp. But that's me not you and I have to ingest it. I can roll around in bales of oregano no problem.

I would suspect in your case if the solvent used in smokeless powder was the problem it would be through inhalation in the lungs.

You mentioned that you have issues in an indoor range? I would be skeptical of the problem being from NG as most of it is consumed in the combustion reaction during firing, the main product of combustion being CO and H2O. I'm going to go with lead particles being by far the biggest threat but I seriously doubt that there is enough lead in the air of an indoor range that would cause an immediate onset of your symptoms. But as others have said check with a health care professional and perhaps an organic chemist.
 
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I agree then it was lead exposure, just a confirmation of my fast metabolism I guess. But lead from primer and bullets didn't bother me, just now with the TG, it was probably NG and the solvents, brought on by me touching the powder at a few points. Hopefully soon I will feel well enough to plug in the vacuum and suck it all up.
 
Well GBExpat it's too late for that, it's a hobby and a way of life for me, and I believe a neccesity for all. I may have to give up on reloading double base powders or reloading in general. I've never felt sick while shooting or at a range except for that one time. Ah and also when a "new" SKS fired as I closed the bolt and I absorbed the entire recoil into the palm of my hand leading to subcutaneous bleeding and crushed cartilege.
 
paladinj said:
I agree then it was lead exposure, just a confirmation of my fast metabolism I guess. ...
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Fast metabolism + lead exposure can cause such an event? First I have ever heard of that.

Until I passed 60 my metabolism was high enough that I could eat whatever & however much I wanted and still stayed lean.

O'course, I have never frequented public/private indoor ranges. I have been to indoor ranges maybe a half-dozen times in my life. Never any issues other than what I thought of as the simple discomfort of indoor ranges.

I have always been blessed with plenty of hilly (easy to provide for a backstop) open land on which to shoot. :)
 
First talk to your physician and see what they say.

All may not be lost if the chemicals in the reloading process and you don't mix.

You may just have to take extra precautions that most of us don't have to. Take the 'well ventilated area' to the next level might be a good idea. Either in a different location, or maybe a small fan blowing contaminated air out a window and keeping you in a fresh air envelope. Gloves, and other protective wear would be a good idea also. Hopefully you don't have to go to a full on respirator type set up.

When vacuuming up the spill, be sure to take into account the exhaust of your vacuum cleaner. Making sure you don't redistribute 'dirty' air all around yourself. So you may have to position it differently and open a window for that bad air to blow out of.


Good Luck,


paladinj said:
Ah and also when a "new" SKS fired as I closed the bolt and I absorbed the entire recoil into the palm of my hand leading to subcutaneous bleeding and crushed cartilege.
Click to expand...

Ha, Ha, those of us who have experienced "Garand Thumb" can relate. :)




.



.
 
Pretty much same here, I can drive an hour or less and get to a decent spot to shoot. And I don't even know the best spots. Problem is transporting handguns to anywhere other than a specifically listed facility will get you doing hard time here, so ranges are a must for handguns. They will even accuse you of illegally transporting a restricted firearm if you shoot on the same parcel of land it is registered to for storage no matter how large or non municipal it is.
 
Yes Acera! I experienced SKS palm/wrist!

That being said I can't do that at this time, the setup is in my bedroom currently.
 
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